Programming as a career

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I've been doing some programming at work, but because it's a hardware place, the bar is set pretty low in terms of languages. I've floated my resume out there a couple times, but aside from a couple nibbles, nothing, so I've realized that I don't have enough CS knowledge: a decent amount of perl, less decent PHP, some Mysql, some Javascript, and a couple of C classes that I've taken a couple years ago that have fallen into disuse. What, then, should I improve on? Should I take some Java classes? I figure that I'll have to take a data structure class sooner or later; should I aim for a certificate or even a degree?

Leee, Friday, 21 August 2009 03:28 (fifteen years ago) link

Java and C# are very high in demand. And definitely get a Bachelor's degree in CS if you can. Tons of places won't even give you the time of day if you don't have one.

Mr. Snrub, Friday, 21 August 2009 03:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Bump. Anyone else, or did Mr. Burns give the long and short of it?

Leee, Friday, 21 August 2009 21:00 (fifteen years ago) link

I've been in this career so long I'm obsolete, so my best advice is look at the want ads for programmers and see what's needed most. And I hope a BS in CS still means you know C inside and out.

nickn, Friday, 21 August 2009 21:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Oh, and get the A+ certification. No, it's not very programming-related, but it shows that you know rudimentary knowledge of PC repair, it's a super easy exam, and it's on your resume forever.

Don't bother with most other certifications, though. They're an absolute nightmare to study for and they become obsolete too fast. Instead, I'd start contributing to some free open source project on sourceforge or google code or something, and then bring that code with you to all your interviews. It gives you a good answer to the "yes, but what have you done lately?" question, and voluntarily contributing for a free project makes you look good.

Mr. Snrub, Sunday, 23 August 2009 04:02 (fifteen years ago) link

three months pass...

Asking coworkers and family, and two things I often hear:

1. Get at least a bachelor's in comp sci/software engineering (I have an ever-useful English degree already) because in terms of career growth, you won't get priority unless you have that degree. This is important to me, given that I'm currently at a position where I have almost no room for growth.
2. Don't get a bachelor's, because everything's getting outsourced in software engineering anyway.

I'm reluctant to give up before I've even gotten started on programming, since I took forever to find a job, first of all, and one that I actually enjoy.

Leee, Friday, 18 December 2009 05:40 (fourteen years ago) link

People who say #2 don't know what they're talking about.

Just make sure you either specialize or diversify your skills (whichever suits your persona, there are pros and cons to either) so you're not a one trick programmer, and you'll be fine. In this late 2009 economapolypse, I'd go with the diversify-yourself-and-learn-a-whole-bunch-of-shit-for-fun angle. Companies will give preference to people who geek out on programming in their spare time, or *ahem* at least can pretend very well that they do.

Sock Puppet Pizza Delivers To The Forest (Sock Puppet Queso Con Concentrate), Friday, 18 December 2009 06:35 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, learn a bunch of shit, more the better.

kingfish, Friday, 18 December 2009 06:40 (fourteen years ago) link

3. Make up for lack of degree w/ experience (fuck going back 2 school)

shartin jort (am0n), Friday, 18 December 2009 06:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Other recent observations: open source environment jobs have blossomed.. Microsoft technology jobs have softened (for pretty obvious budget reasons.) It's awesome to know both, but if you had to choose one, choose the former -- since it's free, and if you can prove that you wrestled with bugs in some open source package, and overcame them, that's something you can put on a CV.

(The really stupid thing about tech companies: no one will hire a seasoned C# programmer for a mid-level Java position, or vice versa -- even though the two language skills are highly transferable. This is digressing into rant territory, so I'll stop.)

Sock Puppet Pizza Delivers To The Forest (Sock Puppet Queso Con Concentrate), Friday, 18 December 2009 06:51 (fourteen years ago) link

3b. Or at least spend a number of days going through wiki pages on algorithms involving binary search trees, sort algorithms, and abstract data types like stacks, queues, linked-lists, etc. A BS in CS will teach you that and a lot more, but in practice, it's the former stuff that companies really care about. You do need some math skillz to understand the former. learning O-notation is a bonus.

Then again, some companies just want to hire people who like picking things up quickly.

Sock Puppet Pizza Delivers To The Forest (Sock Puppet Queso Con Concentrate), Friday, 18 December 2009 06:55 (fourteen years ago) link

Yeah, learn a bunch of shit, more the better.

ehh, having a multidisciplinary cv can be a pain, recruiters don't know what to do with you.

poster x (ledge), Friday, 18 December 2009 10:58 (fourteen years ago) link

I'll back the assertion that it is possible to be a coder without a degree (my ex is an example - heck he didnt even finish high school) but if you go down that path you gotta know C++, C#, assembly, perl, etc relevant to field language. You have to live and breathe code and *enjoy* doing it. I see people who code like other people play and write songs on guitars. Theyre the ones who do well.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Friday, 18 December 2009 11:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i would think with that trayce you kinda have to get a bit lucky, and find a company that's a bit more relaxed in their recruitment drive.

i recently applied for a java role, having a rather great bouncy interview and selling my enthusiasm for coding etc. They seemed impressed and I thought i'd done well but the other guy won the job basically because he knew more about 'business' terms.

all companies are different, worth researching them individually for your applications.

bracken free ditch (Ste), Friday, 18 December 2009 11:21 (fourteen years ago) link

Games industry is perhaps a unique beast compared to coding in all other fields, as it is a lot more of a "prove yer shit" industry.

millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Friday, 18 December 2009 11:57 (fourteen years ago) link

Know this really well.

Then this.

And then this.

Now you're pretty much all set.

Mr. Snrub, Friday, 18 December 2009 12:01 (fourteen years ago) link

xp Trayce, yeah agree with that

bracken free ditch (Ste), Friday, 18 December 2009 12:14 (fourteen years ago) link

Is learning C++ a particularly good idea these days? There's got to be a lot more jobs in Java and PHP, at least. Hell, probably even in Ruby and Python. People do argue that you learn so much from programming C++ that it makes other languages much easier to pick up etc, but that doesn't seem to me like a good enough reason to start there.

Guess it depends on the job you want -- I imagine the places where they use C and C++ now are ones where you're most likely to actually need a CS degree.

What do I know -- I just quit my programming job last month and have no idea wtf to do in the future.

Øystein, Friday, 18 December 2009 12:48 (fourteen years ago) link

I had heard that C++ had lost out a lot to Java and Visual C++ to C#, and meanwhile C is still going strong for embedded systems, which C++ is largely unsuited to. But I have never been paid to write in any of those languages so I dunno.

When I was last job-hunting I put just about every language I had even basic knowledge of, and a specialist IT recruiter told me it was confusing and I needed to narrow it down. So don't do that.

I suppose that sounds obvious (writing 30-line programs in yr spare time or in lol college != doing useful work on a real major project), but when your core skills - and I'm not sure I have any - are kind of limited and obsolete, and your jobs to date have involved a lot of whatever nobody else wants to do that day but thinks you can pick up as you go...

brett favre vs bernard fevre, fite (a passing spacecadet), Friday, 18 December 2009 13:23 (fourteen years ago) link

I have a good front-to-back knowledge of web development, from html to java, and i do put it all on my cv, but I try to position myself as a java developer. Still most of the stuff i get from agents is for entry level html crap. Basically all agents are know-nothing cunts.

poster x (ledge), Friday, 18 December 2009 13:48 (fourteen years ago) link

is it worth learning to use stuff like eclipse and that because i guess while most people can do java C++ fewer people will know how to work with the specfic development tools etc?

I sb'ed your mum (ken c), Friday, 18 December 2009 16:37 (fourteen years ago) link

It might also be helpful to learn about recursion, as told by H.P. Lovecraft:

http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html

o. nate, Friday, 18 December 2009 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link

3. Make up for lack of degree w/ experience (fuck going back 2 school)

I kind of sort of have this covered at my current position, but I'm sort of an ad hoc backwater one-person band supporting a group in a hardware company, so there's not a lot of support for me but also not a lot of priority given to me vis-a-vis promotions, accumulating job skills past a rudimentary point, etc. It's good for financial security, but if I need/want a real developer's job, I feel a bit underqualified, thus thinking about doing school part time to get a BA/BS. And that goes to Sock Puppet's 3b; I'm a bit intimidated by the mathier stuff on my own, I do much better in a classroom.

I have some Java on me now, I'm taking a C++ class at jr. college this Winter Q.

Leee, Friday, 18 December 2009 21:22 (fourteen years ago) link

People who say #2 don't know what they're talking about.

Re: outsourcing -- does it matter that I work in Silicon Valley? I tend to assume that if the general trend is towards outsourcing programming, SV would be the place where it happens first.

Leee, Friday, 18 December 2009 21:24 (fourteen years ago) link

is it worth learning to use stuff like eclipse and that

i guess it'd be a good idea to know how how yer basic ide works but no point going out of your way to learn any particular one. once you know one you know them all, more or less.

poster x (ledge), Friday, 18 December 2009 21:32 (fourteen years ago) link

OTM. Every company has their own specifics w.r.t. IDEs so it's probably not a good use of your time to worry about the environment outside of what you need to know to get things done.

There's no concrete answer to the get/don't get a C.S. degree question. As you might have guessed already it depends... amount of experience, depth of background, relative visibility, the type of job you're looking for and what industry it's in (something like game development is it's own Universe). I can only offer up anecdotes from my own career - I've had exactly two formal programming classes, but 18 years of job experience from IT garbage collector, to webmaster, device driver wizard, and database king. Like everyone else has been saying, have a broad familiarity with a couple areas of deep knowledge. If I was starting now, I'd make Java one of those deep knowledge areas.

Also, don't underestimate visibility. Write some code, improve on it, and then blog the results. Write comments on someone else's coding blog. I've gotten a couple of contract gig offers just because I posted some sample code to my blog. Go figure.

Lastly, get familiar with database basics. Nothing ridiculous like Oracle but just your basic MySQL/PostGreSQL fundamentals. I didn't set out to be a database guy, but I knew some stuff and now four years later I'm a full-blown DBA and pretty good at it.

Elvis Telecom, Saturday, 19 December 2009 00:25 (fourteen years ago) link

> I had heard that C++ had lost out a lot to Java

i think this is due to a shift towards webapps (java servlets). i'm a dyed in the wool c programmer now doing java for a living because everything is now sat on a server being served by JBoss.

(never had a lesson in java, hadn't been invented whilst i was in education... lol, z80)

i am aghast at some of the job adverts i see, the list of disparate things they expect you to know. but a lot of this is due to agency idiots. (that said, if i think about all the disparate things i use at work...)

the thing they don't teach you at college but is fundamental when working professionally and/or in groups is version control. get comfortable with cvs or svn or maybe even git. at the very least know what they do.

i'd also recommend having something you can show people, like contributing, or starting, an open source project. or just having some flashy applets somewhere.

this stuff all takes years, 25 years in i'm still picking stuff up.

koogs, Sunday, 20 December 2009 10:27 (fourteen years ago) link

Hm, I like a syntax-highlighting text editor with parenthesis matching and suchlike, but for the actual business of compiling and running I'm still alt-tabbing to a console window, guess I'd better stop being so afraid of letting the IDE take care of it...

Ha, agency job ads. Seen ads asking for 3 years' experience in technologies which aren't 3 years old.

This is good encouragement to actually listen to the woman who's been trying to get us all to use svn. The only version control I've used was command-line only and didn't do much beyond locking the file and adding a timestamped comment. Seems they're a lot more sophisticated now.

brett favre vs bernard fevre, fite (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 21 December 2009 16:32 (fourteen years ago) link

file locking is so '90s.

poster x (ledge), Monday, 21 December 2009 16:37 (fourteen years ago) link

Hm, I like a syntax-highlighting text editor with parenthesis matching and suchlike, but for the actual business of compiling and running I'm still alt-tabbing to a console window, guess I'd better stop being so afraid of letting the IDE take care of it...

Yeah, I programmed in notepad etc for years, before moving to a proper IDE, mostly because I figured I should learn to program without any tools to help me out. In hindsight that wasn't a particularly good idea, it just made thinks more convoluted and slow. Rewriting code was a major pain etc.
Learning an IDE (Eclipse, for instance) is hardly any work at all, since you can start off treating it as little more than a fancified text-editor, and learn the cool tricks as you go along. I mean, hell, I'd used one for over a year before I even heard of "extract method"! Sheesh.

Actually, that reminds me that getting comfortable with Maven or Ant is fairly quickly done, and something well worth doing once you're comfortable with Subversion (SVN) or CVS.
Also, testing frameworks. JUnit if you're using Java. It's both quick to learn, and well worth it; just don't let the annoying Test-Driven Design (TDD) fanatics put you off.

Øystein, Monday, 21 December 2009 18:15 (fourteen years ago) link

there are things netbeans cannot do that easily vim will do in a heartbeat but i can't live without the code completion stuff as i don't really know the libraries (and they change). plus java projects have such a deep directory trees and our stuff is so scattered that you end up spending most of your time in vim typing directory paths to swapping between files (could use ctags i guess)

eclipse i never got to grips with - there's no 'compile' button as it's continually compiling and i like having a compile button.

svn can be used on the command line but we use tortoise.

koogs, Monday, 21 December 2009 19:11 (fourteen years ago) link

four years pass...

Programmers are the magicians of the modern age

calstars, Sunday, 8 June 2014 21:36 (ten years ago) link

Not the ones I've known. And I've known more than a few.

Aimless, Monday, 9 June 2014 04:56 (ten years ago) link

buncha putzes

j., Monday, 9 June 2014 05:09 (ten years ago) link

Programming is the worst

Nhex, Monday, 9 June 2014 06:46 (ten years ago) link

DevOps is the worst.

koogs, Monday, 9 June 2014 10:32 (ten years ago) link

Software Engineer USA™

, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:04 (ten years ago) link

we like to pretend we're architects and engineers and builders but we're really more like apprentice mechanics or those dudes that assemble pre-made furniture half the time

a strange man (mh), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:07 (ten years ago) link

programming is great if functions and syntax are well documented. it is the worst thing imaginable otherwise.

sufi john paxson (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:09 (ten years ago) link

I do enjoy the critical thinking parts of my mind that were unlocked by learning CS theory and programming over a period of time, but it really chafes me to see software developers think that they're able to solve non-software societal problems with that toolkit

a strange man (mh), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:09 (ten years ago) link

professional googlers

lag∞n, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:10 (ten years ago) link

Oh, I forgot that one. Software Architect. Classic.

I much rather SysAdmin, coder, developer, webmonkey/webmaster, script kiddie

Mind you, my end goal is probably to be a 'Software Architect', so I should lol carefully

, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:10 (ten years ago) link

yeah, really smart or tricky code makes you seem like a wizard but what it really makes you is an asshole if it's ever meant to be maintained

pretty sure my coding style has gotten progressively dumber on purpose

a strange man (mh), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:10 (ten years ago) link

^^ thank you

sufi john paxson (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:11 (ten years ago) link

I think software/systems architect is a fine title, even if my actual designs-buildings-and-structures friend recoils in disgust. I hate when people introduce themselves as "architects" without the qualifier.

Now, the part of the business where people use "architect" as a verb... not so good.

a strange man (mh), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:12 (ten years ago) link

I do enjoy the critical thinking parts of my mind that were unlocked by learning CS theory and programming over a period of time, but it really chafes me to see software developers think that they're able to solve non-software societal problems with that toolkit

― a strange man (mh), Monday, June 9, 2014 5:09 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink


From the dudes I've met, I get the impression many of them think they do have superpowers and can basically write a piece of software/webapp to solve just about any social/civic/political issue

, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:12 (ten years ago) link

they probably also think they can throw together that application in a matter of a few days

programmers are horrible estimators

a strange man (mh), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:13 (ten years ago) link

working with computers makes people feel very powerful because computers are powerful

lag∞n, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:13 (ten years ago) link

bring back punch cards

sufi john paxson (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 9 June 2014 16:14 (ten years ago) link

ya, it's just funny because in canada you're not really allowed to use "software engineer", because, well, you're not an engineer. but in the states, it's quite common

, Monday, 9 June 2014 16:15 (ten years ago) link

especially considering that a lot of people who do get hired shouldn't be anywhere near software development

scanner darkly, Tuesday, 24 September 2024 22:19 (one month ago) link

DJP otm
My little intern buddy for the summer definitely has lived in that world and we spent several months trying to deprogram him. I get that it’s the way of things with SV startup interviewers, but I feel like that mindset has infected even the most staid companies that have a handful of developers on staff

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 13:04 (one month ago) link

I guess I'm lucky that I started in this career when web development was just taking off, but I've been a developer for over 25 years, I have no formal IT qualifications, I've read maybe one comp sci book cover to cover, I do no development outsde of work hours (i used to do some, not much) and have never been been to (or had any desire ro go to) a conference.

The flip side is that the tech stack at the company I've been with for nine years is old hat and I probably would find it hard to get a new job, if I wanted, without some upskilling.

a mysterious, repulsive form of energy that permeates the universe (ledge), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 13:30 (one month ago) link

Tech companies may prefer those types of devs, but I think most places just care if you can do the job. I did some portfolio projects when I was trying to move from teaching back to software, but I never did a thing with software in my spare time when I was (and now again am) a dev.

I will say though, in interviews, everyone asked me whether I'd worked on any recent projects since I'd been out of software so long, and I pointed to my portfolio projects. But I don't think they need to be complex or anything, nobody is gonna pore over your Github

Vinnie, Wednesday, 25 September 2024 14:35 (one month ago) link

thanks, all. this is reassuring

brimstead, Wednesday, 25 September 2024 14:59 (one month ago) link

I can't tell sometimes if interviewees are hesitant to voice things in a more opinionated way because they're afraid their answer will disqualify them or if they genuinely don't think about certain things.

"I see you've used library A and library B on different projects. What do you feel are the advantages of each of those, and were you involved in picking which to use?"

Getting "I just used what the project lead told me to use" has come up a few times. I don't want an insanely detailed programmer holy war style answer, but I feel like I'm trying to do a voight-kampff test sometimes trying to drag any qualitative answers out of people. Another one would be, "What feature do you wish this thing you used had?"

Are other companies just insanely dry in their questioning? I can't tell if I'm asking things that are completely out of the norm

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 15:19 (one month ago) link

My main takeaway from interviews over the last 6 months has been a lot of focus on "Competency Framework" questions, looking for examples of disagreeing with colleagues, dealing with "stakeholders", how and where I shaped the direction of a project, how I ensure whether code is sufficiently tested, how do I choose which items in a sprint to do first. People are really into it

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 15:24 (one month ago) link

I've never really done formal interviews before though, this is first time around at that

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 15:25 (one month ago) link

I know the market doesn’t support my mindset but honestly the idea that you have to live, breathe, and shit code in order for anyone to deign to give you an interview is the #1 most toxic thing about this industry. Its absolute bullshit and never let anyone convince you otherwise.

― DJP, Tuesday, September 24, 2024 6:04 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

love this. i hire cloud devops engineers at a very large company. we obviously care about technical skills but i care just as much about--can you navigate an organization, can you approach people and get help, can they approach you and get your help, can you figure out how to do things without handholding? like anyone can code stuff on their own but at enterprise level you don't do anything that is actually impactful on your own.

call all destroyer, Thursday, 26 September 2024 02:13 (one month ago) link

I can't tell sometimes if interviewees are hesitant to voice things in a more opinionated way because they're afraid their answer will disqualify them or if they genuinely don't think about certain things.

"I see you've used library A and library B on different projects. What do you feel are the advantages of each of those, and were you involved in picking which to use?"

Getting "I just used what the project lead told me to use" has come up a few times. I don't want an insanely detailed programmer holy war style answer, but I feel like I'm trying to do a voight-kampff test sometimes trying to drag any qualitative answers out of people. Another one would be, "What feature do you wish this thing you used had?"

Are other companies just insanely dry in their questioning? I can't tell if I'm asking things that are completely out of the norm

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Wednesday, 25 September 2024 15:19 (yesterday) link

the "I just used what the project lead told me to use" response imho should be considered valid in tech. i came from 10+ years working for a fairly well-oiled engineering firm to a company where churning out product every 6 months is the priority. it is the absolute lawless, wild west and shocks me there is not more government oversight/regulation for it. i spent the past week configuring some next-gen product our company will be putting out with no schematics, software, instructions, etc. and just some daily updated powerpoints some 3rd party tech company overseas had sent over and just a note from the manager to do it.

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Thursday, 26 September 2024 02:53 (one month ago) link

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-the-star-interview-response-technique-2061629

This seems to crop up quite a bit, I've noticed in a number of interviews the interview steals the questions from here and I steal the answers.

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Thursday, 26 September 2024 04:22 (one month ago) link

Being a good interviewer is a skill a lot of people conducting the interviews don't have (sour grapes, possibly).

Vincent van Gagh (Leee), Thursday, 26 September 2024 07:16 (one month ago) link

We've started using STAR in our PDPs. Can I say how much I hate PDPs? I don't know or really care where I'll be in five years, or two years. I have no ambition. Can't I just be a developer? Last time my line manager actually mentioned a path to VP of engineering or CTO. If every developer became a CTO that would lead to very top heavy companies.

a mysterious, repulsive form of energy that permeates the universe (ledge), Thursday, 26 September 2024 07:35 (one month ago) link

> the idea that you have to live, breathe, and shit code

the irony is that most of my job is configuration and aws stack changes and 'migrate these 50 components to new distro now they've ruined centos' and not code as such

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 08:47 (one month ago) link

Whats PDP?

I don't mind the STAR stuff since I found it. When I first started going for interviews in May I had no real idea of what was coming or what they were looking for in the answers. Since I found out the questions and answerws are all on the STAR pages I've been able to tailor my answers knowing whats coming, and be pretty conversational.

I'm still not sure what the answer to the disagreeing with a colleague thing is. I think you're supposed to disagree initially and then acquiese but I'm not sure. I'm a bit hazy on the shaping of a project too. Maybe I disagreed with part of a brief and said I disagree and then they say oh good point and we change it to what I said and then everyone cheered

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:00 (one month ago) link

personal development plan?

i am the same with ambition. can you not just be satisfied with how things are?

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:02 (one month ago) link

or maybe ledge is working on REALLY legacy systems

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11

(i think the mini mainframe we had in the corner of the comp sci lab back in 1986 was a pdp. and a vax)

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:04 (one month ago) link

personal development plan?

yes. the new name for annual reviews, no longer annual - i have fortnightly meetings about this ffs!

a mysterious, repulsive form of energy that permeates the universe (ledge), Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:04 (one month ago) link

i have 1-2-1s every month and that seems to always be manager asking what i've done towards my 6-monthly written appraisal (the answer is mostly 'not much, been doing tickets', which usually disappoints)

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:12 (one month ago) link

This is quite confusing! Why doesn't your manager know what you've been doing? In my previous jobs I think my answer to what have you been doing is I have been doing the things you asked me to do

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:40 (one month ago) link

I've never worked (as a developer) for a company with more than 15 people so maybe its different in the real world

Tow Law City (cherry blossom), Thursday, 26 September 2024 09:42 (one month ago) link

> Why doesn't your manager know what you've been doing?

yeah, you'd think.

we also have a monthly team meeting where we tell everybody what we've done in the last month despite having daily meetings where we tell everybody what we are doing.

you get the feeling that the manager does these things to look like he's doing something.

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 10:06 (one month ago) link

this stuff is definitely way more common in larger companies, when we had 12 employees there was almost no process, now we have over 100 and it's all pdps, one-on-ones, standups, refinement sessions, planning, retrospectives... i can absolutely see the need for... *some* of it.

a mysterious, repulsive form of energy that permeates the universe (ledge), Thursday, 26 September 2024 10:21 (one month ago) link

so far TODAY we've had

a: 10 min standup (daily)
b: 45 minutes engineering (monthly)
c: 1 hour retro (3-weekly)

koogs, Thursday, 26 September 2024 11:19 (one month ago) link

we have two week sprints, which usually include refinement, planning, retro, and stand ups. that basically adds up to a full day, and I only work 4 days a week so that's 12.5% of my capacity gone by default.

a mysterious, repulsive form of energy that permeates the universe (ledge), Thursday, 26 September 2024 12:56 (one month ago) link

I have no ambition. Can't I just be a developer?

This is me as well. I enjoy my work enough that I don't really mind doing it, but it's still just work to pay the bills and my life doesn't revolve around my "career". I'd like to be paid more sure, but I don't want to go into management which is seemingly the only thing people mean by career advancement.

silverfish, Thursday, 26 September 2024 13:29 (one month ago) link

My company just announced an individual contributor track that parallels the management track and my overwhelming response is “where was all of this 15 years ago when I had strong opinions about my career”

At this point I can do either so I’m mostly like “which one gives me the most money for the least amount of work” which is why I’m suddenly interested in management

DJP, Thursday, 26 September 2024 13:33 (one month ago) link

i think i could probably come up with decent efforts at the reasonings behind all these unfathomable org/manager behaviours and questions but id only be outing myself as one of those bloody mananger types (absolutely valid ofc)

tuah dé danann (darraghmac), Thursday, 26 September 2024 13:55 (one month ago) link

My company just announced an individual contributor track that parallels the management track and my overwhelming response is “where was all of this 15 years ago when I had strong opinions about my career”

There has to be some sort of business practices consultancy or literature published by one about this that's driving it, because I heard some time ago that this was in the works, and now it's in the official job grade/responsibilities documentation. I have yet to see any evidence it exists in practice. I think domain architects might be among the few in my department.
(I'm in a R&D organization, with a large supporting IT presence, and the "domains" roughly map to specific business functions, whether those are product-oriented or regulatory/compliance type of things)

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, 26 September 2024 14:37 (one month ago) link

This is what the kids want these days b/c they grew up on tracks with goals, unlike, say, me.

j.o.h.n. in evanston (john. a resident of chicago.), Thursday, 26 September 2024 15:13 (one month ago) link

two weeks pass...

Team 1: oh, you'll need us to make you a new resource, please raise a ticket and supply details

us: ok, there you go, let us know when it's ready to use

Team 1: ok, it's there

Team 2: why aren't you using your new resource, it's costing money?

us: ok, we'll do the switch over tomorrow if that's ok

Team 1: please raise a ticket for change of use of your resource...

i mean i see the point, we've been hit a couple of times by people suddenly doubling their requests to our systems without warning (or doing it to them), but...

worse, we tried this 3 months ago using the original resource they'd ok'd but which was massively undersized, had to revert about 3 hours of deploying (which took another 3 hours)

koogs, Wednesday, 16 October 2024 16:38 (two weeks ago) link

Anyone here work on fiber-optic networking? Just had a relatively complex (and possibly poorly put together) fiber network dumped on me to suss out and am looking for some basics on best practices, etc.

Elvis Telecom, Saturday, 26 October 2024 19:02 (one week ago) link

praying for you https://sschueller.github.io/posts/wiring-a-home-with-fiber/

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Saturday, 26 October 2024 19:25 (one week ago) link

thanks!

Elvis Telecom, Sunday, 27 October 2024 03:23 (one week ago) link

No personal experience to be clear. I just bookmarked that a while back in case I ever went insane and wanted to install fiber

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 27 October 2024 13:52 (one week ago) link

Right now I just need to tread water with the jargon and not sound totally ignorant in a discussion about fiber modes, wireless links to remote security cameras (low frame-rate, but 4K), redundancy and what-ifs w.r.t. network prioritization and power outages. I'm earning the Telecom part of the name

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 29 October 2024 05:36 (one week ago) link

the new hires are making noise about automated code formatting and linting tools. i am agin them. i never met a formatter that did a job i'm completely happy with. and the linting tools are all just somebody else's idea of good code. i mean it's ok when they are finding unused variables but they tend to get religious too quickly. (this is java. we use rubocop for ruby linting and everybody hates it and yet...)

koogs, Friday, 1 November 2024 11:11 (four days ago) link

(also noises about using co-pilot, but i enjoy writing code, it's the rest of the crap i don't like)

koogs, Friday, 1 November 2024 11:12 (four days ago) link

I post these when people go on about co-pilot. Doesn't make any difference of course.

This is insane. The Taiwanese government is paying farmers to NOT grow rice because they need the water for AI chip manufacturing instead. We're prioritizing AI over feeding people during a drought. https://t.co/Jd3qieucUT pic.twitter.com/dchH1CvT0U

— Reid Southen (@Rahll) July 22, 2024

https://www.npr.org/2024/07/12/g-s1-9545/ai-brings-soaring-emissions-for-google-and-microsoft-a-major-contributor-to-climate-change

french cricket in the usa (ledge), Friday, 1 November 2024 11:54 (four days ago) link

linting kind of annoys me, i've never seen formatting so bad that it's a barrier to understanding so it seems like yet another unnecessary hoop to jump through.

french cricket in the usa (ledge), Friday, 1 November 2024 11:57 (four days ago) link

Oh man, I would like to show you the code I’ve been looking at over the past year that has been around for 15+ years and ask if you feel like linters/formatters are a bad idea

Indentation follows no pattern, sections are wholesale copy/pasted from one spot into another, none of the variable names make sense, variables are initialized with values that are never used, others are declared but never used, classes with identical names live in identical packages in different dependencies used by the same application… it is a wholesale disaster

DJP, Friday, 1 November 2024 12:07 (four days ago) link

New BA on her second project where the first suffered from hazy/malleable requirements/testing oversights wrote user stories for our upcoming navigation project, the bulk of which is a horizontal menu with a flyout on hover for each section. There’s a user story for each of the four menu items, for each of the two languages we support, and so far only the desktop user stories- I assume there are 16 more coming down the pipe to cover mobile and tablet.

I get what she’s doing for testing but what a nightmare trying to build under these user stories! It’s a CMS and the menu links are added by users. She refuses to get that we’re just building components. So bizarre.

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 1 November 2024 12:50 (four days ago) link

> variables are initialized with values that are never used, others are declared but never used

see a linter (or just a good ide) is handy for this stuff.

it's when it starts saying 'this could be a lambda function' or 'use Optional' or, as rubocop does 'this method is too long. should be < 15 lines' is when my hackles rise.

there is a mandatory 'Gen AI' course that i have been assigned, but there's a 2 month deadline on that and i'm hoping it starts to not be a thing in the remaining time.

koogs, Friday, 1 November 2024 13:07 (four days ago) link

What an opionionated, mostly unconfigurable, formatter like Prettier is great at is getting rid of nitpicks around formatting in code-reviews, and also avoiding you spending mental overhead on putting your spacing/returns in a consisitent place.

Chewshabadoo, Friday, 1 November 2024 13:19 (four days ago) link

Yeah we added a formatter to the basic maven build, and as a failing step in the Pull Request build. I don't agree with all the choices, but it does make figuring out "which of these is the change?" easier.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 1 November 2024 20:04 (four days ago) link

i am a very strong proponent for automated formatters with their default settings, despite being someone who takes a lot of care with intentional indentation and formatting in my own stuff. the hierarchy of code style pretty much boils down to: mine > formatter's >>>>>>>>> everyone else's

no one is going to be completely satisfied with the formatter, but it's going to be far better than whatever the other devs are advocating for (yikes). then, going with the default settings just prevents the endless bikeshedding

diamonddave​85 (diamonddave85), Saturday, 2 November 2024 16:01 (three days ago) link

the problem we had previously is that eclipse, netbeans, visual studio code and intellij all had their own ideas about standards. but the only thing we've mandated so far, and written config for, is the ordering of imports as that was the thing that would change erratically between commits depending on ide. and was just adding noise to every review.

the one thing that jumps out at me in the new suggestions is the max line length being bumped to 130 characters. i hate having to horizontally scroll to see all the code.

koogs, Saturday, 2 November 2024 16:21 (three days ago) link

(vertical scroll is fine, mouse wheels exist for a reason)

koogs, Saturday, 2 November 2024 16:22 (three days ago) link

130 is probably excessive, but everyone needs a Logitech MX Master. Horizontal scroll, baby

ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Saturday, 2 November 2024 18:07 (three days ago) link


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