Identity Cards

BLIMEY a 2-thread day from RickyT! are you bored, dear? ;) um yeah identity cards. i dunno what i think about them... i mean they could actually be useful at times but there's MASSIVE scope for abuse and discrimination and violations of civil liberty blah blah. i am hungover.

So, ID cards, classic or dud? Would you be happy having to carry around an ID card? Does it bother those of you that already do (the Belgian and Dutch posters, yes)? Anybody got any evidence that they help the police and security services? Is it just down to some weird Anglo-Saxon paranoia that the UK/US don't have them?

I wouldn't mind at all. I'm legally obliged to carry my passport around at all times and it's much bigger. I think they help reduce credit/debit card fraud, etc.

I resent having to carry around something which tells people who I am. I can do that thank you very much (and also robs my ability to lie when I get caught for fare evasion - which is never). Of course this will not be an identity card - rather an entitlement card which will allow me to get all the things I am currently entitled to without a card.

If it was important to have one = it will be forged. If it isn't important to have one (ie will not remove any of my civil iberties) = it will be useless. Frankly it will be a waste of time and smacks of Phone-In Discussion Show Politics.

it will be forged = it is important to expand the black economy as this is the only reason capitalism staggers on

haha i once met someone who forged IDs in new york: she had made a giant id in her apartment, with a window in it where thew photo went: you stood at the window and she took a picture of the little tableaux, then reduced the photo to propah ID size and printed

I don't really want the hassle. It will be like my Blockbuster video card all broken up and tatty and regularly going missing. And can you imagine the trauma and bureaucracy if you lost your ID card? But would that mean I don't exist and wouldn't have to pay taxes and all that?

I suppose it will create alot of jobs in the whole administrating ID cards sector of the economy.

The current suggestion of 'entitlement cards' which won't be compulsory to carry unless you'ree going to the Job Centre/Doctors/Hospital etc etc, seems utterly pointless to me. The stated idea behind them is to reduce fraud, but will they cause a big enough reduction to make the huge cost of introducing them worthwhile? Given the huge costs involved in making the cards sufficiently difficult to forge I would guess not.

This whole "entitlement cards won't be compulsary unless you actually want something" seems a bit fishy to me. Does it mean that anyone who wants to, say, register with their local NHS GP will need one?

Then again - historical note time - the current NHS records system is directly descended from the WWII identity card scheme, because it was nice and convenient at the time.

? Is it just down to some weird Anglo-Saxon paranoia that the UK/US don't have them?

Don't most US states require driver's license holders to carry them at all times? How many times have you heard, "We're gonna need to see some ID please"?

I'm not bothered.

Maybe soon we'll all have to get our fingerprints or retnas scaned like in those sifi movies if Mr. Bush gets his way after he gets his pooper back in order. Then we won't have to carry ID anymore. And you won't get turned away at bars. Weeeeeeeeeeeee

You can get state identity cards if you're a non-driver; believe it or not a lot of bars in the States won't accept US passports as a form of ID because they reason an older sibling could go drinking with a driver's license ID and hand off the passport to the underage sibling. But obviously if you're in A CAR and you get stopped driving it, the police are going to want to see YOUR LICENSE TO DRIVE IT. They also serve as official ID in states, with the added bonus of driving.

I don't like this whole ID card thing; Pete's absolutely right about already being entitled to services without a card. And the info they want to put on the cards (medical records etc) is just plain stupid. Imagine how difficult it would be to get mistakes corrected.

ID cards = dud

The Conservative Shadow Home Secretary was on the box a day or two ago saying that when his squad had mooted the idea when they were last in office the Police (and other Security Services?) had said: no thanks, it wouldn't help us.

And there's a Pav in my pocket that says that when the Con servatives tried to moot it then the Labour Party accused them of being fascists Hell-bent on destroying Civil Liberties. And quite rightly too.

Obviously on The Continent they're used to 'em, as the Gestapo issued them from the Franco-Spanish border to the Ukraine without any preliminary discussion and five years later people were used to 'em. And it was useful to Stalin when he took over the Eastern chunk of that tranche of land from Hitler to retain 'em.

In this country we're not used to I. D. cards, and I suspect that a lot of people, if they heard and understood the arguments, would agree with me: the philosophical premise behind introducing compulsory identity cards is that everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

You can get state identity cards if you're a non-driver

Yup. Use mine all the time.

What *really* bugs me is the complete apolitical-ness of teenagers re. this. I have a teenager running Championship Manager not one metre away from me, who isn't that fussed about one more card in his wallet, doesn't even understand why it's a violation of civil rights to have compulsory ANYTHING and I'm thinking I ws just a wee bit more politicised when I was that age.

I'm pretty sure it's not required anywhere to carry your drivers license or any other id at all times (unless you're driving, obviously).

you don't even have to carry your licence when you're driving in the UK. but if you're stopped you may have to present it within 30(?) days at a police station. until a couple of years ago they didn't have photos on - they were just a big sheet of paper. that's what mine's still like

Yeah, it isn't compulsory when you aren't behind the wheel, but so many people use it as ID that it makes sense to always have your driver's license available. (Also, you never know when you're going to have to leap behind the wheel of an odd car and participate in a thrilling chase sequence/mad dash to the emergency room. This is why everyone should learn how to drive a stick.)

drive a stick?

oh, i see. you don't 'alf talk funny, you Americans

suzy - try "the whole of the american public" if you want utterly apathetic about civil liberties! "Well, if you didn't do anything wrong, why do you mind?" PEOPLE ARE STUPID NOW. your british teenagers must be learning it from my fellow citizens.

U+K question from British teenager re: this: Why should I care?

(I'm sure I could come up with answers if I thought about for two seconds, but yeah, please tell me)

all forms of identification intefere with being an anonymous member of the masses, unencumbered by people's desire to be able to conveniently locate you should you become guilty of something at some point. it's best to be LEFT ALONE as much as possible. licensing, for drivers and doctors and such, is excusable because people could do serious harm if they didn't know how, but really, a card saying you're yourself and here's your fingerprint seems unnecessary. (and why do hairdressers have state licenses? can someone explain this?)

mind that i am an exceedingly paranoid person because i have a deep instinct that says at some point i will have to know how to fend for myself in the wild in case i must forsake civilization or it forsakes me. probably someone else could give you a more rational explanation.

Being me could cause serious harm though*.

(* NB I haven't thought this through)

Maria, you rule!

I grew up with a Navy ID card I had due to my dad's line of work, so to me ID cards just seem natural, if you will. Strange but true!

Don't want to repeat too many of the valid points already made. There is no doubt that ID cards will be introduced as something useful to a large section of the population. There is also no doubt that privacy and civil rights will be an issue especially as you have to use your ID card more and more e.g. in Portugal (where ID cards are compulsory) not only the police but private security guards, health, education, bank and post office officals can all demand to see your card http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_2078000/2078604.stm#chart

But overall I think the debate about ID cards is a social issue, at different times societies impose or relax the controls upon themselves for different reasons. Of course tt is important. But I would be more concerned about the use of ID cards to divide a society further. If ID cards benefit those who economically and ploicitcally are in power while disenfranching those with little then I see that as very important. For example if the access to black economy work is curtailed becuase your ID card is required for bureaucratic reasons then that will increase the divide in the society.

Also what will happen to those who already largely undocumented (some thru choice, many thru circumstance and the lack of a safety net) - the homeless, the mentally ill etc? In many respects their documented lives disappeared years ago (just read Andrew O'Hagan's excellent book The Missing which deals with this subject). Are they to be futher ignored and denied access to a society that relies so heavily on an ID card?

Eamonn