Enjoying horror films - why do we (or don't we)?

Started because of a back and forth I had w/HI DERE on a different thread, quoted here:

semi-facetious question: how do you reconcile being a fan of horror movies with disliking things that are unpleasant to watch?

― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:15 PM (36 minutes ago)

this was the wrong kind of unpleasant to watch - sloppy code word for unenjoyable or in most cases boring and dull.

― First and Last and Safeways ™ (jjjusten), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:19 PM (32 minutes ago)

that does raise an interesting question that i have often wondered about re: why some people are wired to enjoy those moments of cringing "aaaaggggghhhh om my god aggghghhghh" horror moments and others just aren't. ie: i totally understand why hostel II (which i will argue is a really well done film) is just plain unwatchable to a huge group of people, and i am curious about why i react differently, while still NOT enjoying the torture scenes per se (which is why the "torture porn" genre grouping makes me really really angry).

― First and Last and Safeways ™ (jjjusten), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:24 PM (27 minutes ago)

sorry that was totally unfocused, what i am wondering is what makes me react positively to scenes that viscerally bother and disgust me - its like some second level emotion that i dont understand, where the pleasure comes from enduring the unpleasantness somehow.

― First and Last and Safeways ™ (jjjusten), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:28 PM (23 minutes ago)

none of which alters the fact that "Big Fan" is a big steaming pile of poo

― First and Last and Safeways ™ (jjjusten), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:28 PM (23 minutes ago)

start another thread so I don't dilute your scorn of "Big Fan" with ongoing allegations that you totally love torture porn, just admit it

― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:31 PM (21 minutes ago)

so i started this thread. wondering if anyone else has wrestled w/this question, esp since it seems like one of the bigger genres that non-fans expect justification for

discussion of the vagaries of "torture porn" can go on this parallel thread Torture Porn (a film thread) and if the two threads get too samey i'll just kill this one

too late, I locked the other one already

btw i searched for a thread on this but the only thing that was kind of similar was a thread started by squirrel_police and i just couldn't bring myself to bump that

xpost oh srsly?

well ok then, i guess part of this kind of strikes to the heart of the whole torture porn genre term (which is a term i think is badly used 95% of the time). the connotation of torture porn seems to misunderstand the feeling that i am talking about above - it is a dismissive statement about how people engage with what is going on onscreen via oversimplification.

I can point to the first time i remember having this feeling as well - 9 years old, watching "The Wrath Of Khan" during the scene with the eel bug going into the dudes ear. obv not a horror film, and certainly not torture porn, but i remember how for the first time there was a palpable physical feeling of horror and revulsion, but somehow it was exhilarating to survive it. to this day its prob the only scene from that movie i remember.

I, for one, enjoy horror movies for the same reason I enjoy other fantasy - it allows me an opportunity to experience feelings I wouldn't otherwise - here, in particular, of dread, fear, shock, awe, and disgust - in an entirely safe setting. These feelings are good for a rush.

So, xpost.

Oversimplification how? I most often see it used when talking about movies that go to relatively extensive and sadistic lengths to frame ongoing violence against a person or people, whether it's slow lingering shots of a madman freezing a woman's hand and then methodically clipping off her frostbitten fingers one by one (the ever-charming "I Know Who Killed Me", which I turned off precisely when it got to this scene) or extended cannon-fodder sequences where waves of henchmen are dispatched in increasingly brutal fashion (the ever-awesome "Bad Boys II", which I didn't think would top the car chase where the bad guys were throwing cadavers at the good guys until they got to the gun/bomb battle at the mansion). There is a certain element of salacious glamorization of the act which fits in very well with the label, including the negative connotations around both the words "torture" and "porn". When people film these things, they're at least partially banking on the viewers getting off on transgressive feelings while watching them, so it seems like a very fair label to me.

torture porn: I know it when I see it.

I enjoy a lot of horror material in general - much as with other genres (sci-fi, westerns, noir, etc.) I enjoy the way genre conventions can be used to grapple with larger socio-political issues and ideas; the way they transpose real world ideas and emotions onto these completely unreal/fantastic templates. and then there's a pure slapstick/comic element to a lot of ridiculous gore films, which are just fun. supernatural dream killer who spouts one liners while cartoonishly murdering naked teenagers? sounds hilarious! lovingly filmed scenes of the goings-on in some loony's overly gruesome torture chamber? eh, not so interesting.

xp

the torture stuff (saws, hostels, martys, ils, wolf creek, devils rejects, etc.) does hit a weirder note than straight horror though, many of these films aren't scary in the traditional sense. i mean the creeping dread has some shared similarity, but many of these spend little or no time on the jump-scares that are sort of coin for the genre.

xposts

i dont think the impulse ppl have to test themselves against their fears in a safe controlled way is partic strange or bothersome - idk its kinda the same pleasure as riding rollercosters or bungee jumping or w/e.

The first Saw had plenty of jump-scares!

Well, it had like 2, that was plenty for me.

I think the "torture porn" label is partly a response to the elaborate, Rube Goldberg-esque sequences that became popular post-Saw (? probably), because these kinds of films seem to have a different rhythm & rationale to yr Slasher movies, which are suspense-driven more than disgust-driven.

Sorry I realise I just repeated what john said while I was typing. Modern torture porn flicks feel different to old school gore movies as well I think, tho I'd be harder pressed to say why.

i think the issue i have with the term is mostly to do with the use of "porn", which operates on a much more ahem functional level where the pleasure is more direct. in other words, using porn to describe this stuff implies that the enjoyment is contained in the visual, which is not true for me.

and i think that it carries an explicit message of shame and wrongness within it as well.

Actually, I think the first "Saw" works so well precisely because so much of it is based off of suspense; the scenes from that movie that I really appreciated, like the reverse bear trap sequence and the mindfuck reveal near the end after Carey Elwes "escapes", were great because of the escalating sense of dread they inspired, and that was driven almost entirely from pacing and being terrified of the horrific thing that was about to happen ANY SECOND NOW rather than extended grossoutness.

another movie that seems to complicate matters is "Cabin Fever", which removes the personal antagonist completely in lieu of infection as the torturer, but is still full of horrifying visual moments.

Although I don't see myself as a horror fan at all, I realize I have seen a shitload of horror films. I love Raimi because he injects humour in it. I love Paranormal Activity and BW Project because it is fear of the unseen/known.
Not that big of a fan when it comes to torture porn. Then again I saw Saw and Hostel -are those torture porn anyway -and enjoyed it.

My neighbour is VERY into horror.

the ever-charming "I Know Who Killed Me"

this is an interesting film to cite (given that I have actually seen it, unlike, say Hostel II lolz). the scenes Dan mentions were just terribly done - lurid, humorless, gratuitous and unnecessary. they didn't have any reason to be there, and they way they were filmed would indicate that they were there to titillate the viewer, to revel in their "transgressive" nature (ie "ooh! can't believe they did that!"). which is kinda a stupid reason for anything to be in a film. I mean, I don't see any point in really pushing against censors when it comes to this kind of thing - really there aren't any effective censors to even be pushing against. America loves violence! It just seems kinda pointless.

xp

I know people who can't watch (non-satirical) horror movies because of some kind of innate squeamishness.

Then I know people who can't watch them because they have been through some seriously fucked up shit in their lives and it actually evokes a kind of PTSD response.

Then I know people who SHOULD have that PTSD thing going on but love horror movies anyway.

Myself-- it seems to come down to one main thing which is that in books, music and films i LIKE TO BE MENACED. This tends to be an atmosphere thing as much as anything else, and specific shock images don't really do much for me. I would probably hate to watch the above-referenced frozen hand scene. But I can't get enough of things like that goddamn raincoated dwarf in Don't Look Now. Something like Suspiria, the appeal for me is not in the bit where the girl falls into a giant thicket of razorwire or the sight of the guide dog ripping out its owner's throat but more in the palpable MENACE that the movie exudes, the feeling that the film itself wants to hurt me...

Lol. I guess I like porn and horror bec both are about climax/release.

i think the saw movies are kinda interesting in terms of "torture porn" bcuz theyre so much more ambivalent abt who the audience is supposed to be sympathizing with. w. hostel or martrys the pleasure is almost masochistic - the liberation of victomhood &c - its a big part of what makes them hard 2 watch.

haha reminds me one of my best friends cant/wont watch gross-out comedies bcuz he gets too painfully embarrassed on behalf of those films protagonists.

using porn to describe this stuff implies that the enjoyment is contained in the visual, which is not true for me.

it also sort of implies that tons of mainstream cinema isn't primarily a visceral, unreflective pleasure, and I don't think that stands up for a second. It's a handy shorthand label in a discussion like this tho.

My neighbour keeps saying I have to watch the rest of the Saw sequels.

Why do so many ppl react to horror like metal? Like you have to be 15 to watch/listen to it.

uff, I have 0 desire to see the Saw sequels even though I was shocked by how much I liked the first one

NV in re to porn: I sort of disagree w that statement.

the saw franchise is def one that has wandered far off the mark at this point, but i think the first 2 maybe are pretty tight little films (despite the terrible acting in the first one). and i mostly mention them because the first saw is sort of the general touchstone for where this stuff came from (although i would say there has been a much longer weird evolution towards this stuff over the years).

Also why do so many adult men I know react to romcoms like they're 15?

How do you mean nath? I was saying I think porn is more a method of watching and you can apply to most movies in the right circumstances.

i approach horror as any cinematic art, and generally prefer ones that appeal to the emotions and the intellect as well as the gut, mostly because i'm yet to see a film that's scared me

anyone who thinks there's a film that might scare me, please let me know

Particularly gruesome horror movies I feel are like restaurants/food carts that are maniacal about making one menu item, and doing it as well as they possibly can, because that's what they're good at, which is much more honorable than trying to accomodate a larger customer base.

Some people don't appreciate a cart that only sells tamales, and would rather go to Baja Fresh. Fine, but if you want some bitchin tamales, get it from the cart.

Probably this sense of naughtiness maybe. Both genres were/are outside the mainstream. So there is that

re: truly scary movies, a lot of people have nominated Jesus Camp and I can't think of a one to top it.

the 1st saw is a rad movie in a lot of ways but its hardly even a 'horror' movie its like sadist noir or a murderous mystery. again i think its interesting bcuz it starts w/ a p clear object for the audience - were stuck in a room w/ these dudes - but it quickly becomes ambivalent abt them and their relationship to the audience. the pleasures and the pov of the movie shift around in a way that horror movies really dont

something like men behind the sun (which i thought was p loathsome) seems like a better progenitor

porn and torture porn both feature intense close-ups of biological functions that serve no discernible narrative purpose. I think that's where the short-hand term comes in handy for so many people (including me) - they see something that aesthetically resembles porn in the way it is shot and presented, and it has no context beyond its own empty, mechanical nature.

really about the closest I come to appreciating "torture porn" is watching Moral Orel, which starts out as a cartoony ha-ha Claymation series lampooning the hypocrisy in modern-day conservative Christianity and slowly morphs into a wholly harrowing, at times terrifying nihilistic rant on the bleakness of modern existence

you may think I'm exaggerating but watch the second season closer "Nature" followed by the third season, particularly the first 5 episodes ("Numb" in particular is kind of terrifying and easily the most uncomfortable thing I've watched on television)

lj: dont really know how to recommend anything because i think it depends on how you define "scary" - there are def things that evoke the usual jump scares, but for me the scary stuff is the stuff that is sort of emotionally devastating, and since i know you have seen irreversible if that doesnt fit your definition im not sure where to send you

re: porn, That's backwards! In porn it is actually the narrative that serves no discernible narrative purpose!

re: morel oral -- did you watch it through? it's pretty anti-nihilistic by the end.

(granted I don't think the emotional impact of Moral Orel works as well if you don't watch the previous seasons, as it pretty much escalates from haha grossout satire into oh shit this is fucking horrifying and I might cry satire over its run; it's probably the best-plotted show ever broadcast on Adult Swim)

xp: haven't gotten all the way to the end, but I know what happens and yeah, I agree with your assessment but HOLY SHIT the road it takes to get there is just YIKES

the closest i've come to appreciating 'torture porn' is Peter Jackson's Braindead (aka Dead Alive) which is as y'all know fucking hilarious

looking at the IMDB of Jesus Camp i gotta say that does look damn scary although documentaries are a different matter - Africa Addio has a similar 'oh FUCK am I really seeing this' horror to it but it isn't a 'scary movie'; it's just fucked-up real life

irreversible didn't scare me, but it did remove my breath at times - it was pretty emotionally devastating but not in a way that made me want to cower behind a sofa

how does Moral Orel compare to Frisky Dingo?

porn and torture porn both feature intense close-ups of biological functions that serve no discernible narrative purpose. I think that's where the short-hand term comes in handy for so many people (including me) - they see something that aesthetically resembles porn in the way it is shot and presented, and it has no context beyond its own empty, mechanical nature.

― Get the Flaps Out (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:43 PM (1 minute ago)

see though this is exactly what i am getting at, there is a further context and (non-direct) narrative purpose in the stuff i appreciate - martyrs or wolf creek are both incredibly brutal and very intimately shot (for lack of a better term), but are def working on a higher level than what you are ascribing to it

Frisky Dingo is more consistently funny; Moral Orel is a better show in terms of storytelling and emotional impact.

actually lj wolf creek might be my best suggestion for you.

the long static shot of orel staring at the birds outside of his window @ the end of nature part 2 is one of the most affecting and disorienting things ive ever seen. and then the dedication to john cassavetes! yah the depths of cruel loneliness that show managed to depict is kinda horrifying esp in an episode like "sundays". i guess mb interesting to separate terrifying and horrifying

re: porn, That's backwards! In porn it is actually the narrative that serves no discernible narrative purpose!

I dunno what porn you're watching but as far as I can tell porn industry pretty much jettisoned any pretensions to narrative from at least the mid-90s onward.

also lolz about torture porn thread devolving into a discussion of Adult Swim

cool, aussie nastiness here we come

also cheers dan, FD is an all-time fave of mine so i'm pretty stoked for Moral Orel if that is all so - sounds like a much, much better version of Monkey Dust

Africa Addio (eng version: Africa Blood And Guts) is by far the most horrifying thing I have ever seen, fwiw

if you watch Africa Addio you have my blessing and my prayers

Braindead/Dead Alive isnt even really related to this stuff imo, most of what i am talking about works on a very bleak humor-free level. i think thats part of the difference with standard goregrind fare and the newer stuff (combined w/the advancements in realism in gore, i have no doubt that if blood feast had been made with todays tech and budget it would have been a very different and difficult film).

^^agreed

i was ashamed of myself (and everyone else) in attendance of the new robocop movie and am totally judgmental of that one guy who clapped at the end. no gore in nu-bocop though.

That's a horror film?

well, i was horrified by it.

Fair enough

Cool of y'all to step in and be judgmental about how you shouldn't be judgmental.

Btw original Robocop is high art and gets a pass.

i find it weird that people just like to watch a lot of horror now to laugh at it.

this was always the case

i've had an ongoing argument with my friend about this ever since we saw hausu because he wants horror movies to actually be scary, and i just wanna see a bunch of funny fucked-up gross crap

also in crowds ppl tend to laugh at themselves being scared? like if they were home on the couch they might be all OMGGGGGGGG O_O but in the movie theater they're all like LOL HAHA MAN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SCARY BUT NOPE LAUGHING HAHAHA

I get a huge adrenalin rush out of being terrified by movies, I love it so much when a movie does it well

It's what drives me nuts about DeRogatis' stupid music analogy that he keeps throwing out (in ref to Odd Future, smh) about whether you'd wanna see Psycho or Saw III, when it's like, duh, those movies are attempting to do different things.

I'm the same way with haunted houses. I don't like things jumping out and scaring me, but I like all the fucked up gross crap

i think that's kinda true, what VG said about crowds vs. home -- even a dumb horror movie can turn into a disturbing mindfuck if i'm watching it at 1 a.m. alone, but something about the experience of being in a movie theater makes it easier to handle.

last night i watched the Evil Dead remake and kept wanting to standup and applaud at the most over-the-top gorey moments, was kind of disturbing myself. i'm not super partial to one type of horror movie over others, though -- i like the gratuitous nasty stuff, i like the jumpy thriller stuff, i like the spooky mysterious stuff, i like that some of the best movies kind of combine those categories.

weird weird bruce campbell cameo at the end of that one.

Cool of y'all to step in and be judgmental about how you shouldn't be judgmental.

lol dude you're the guy who swung in with a bullshit opinion. I love gore movies precisely because they help me deal with childhood trauma, if that's not valid for you in your own life then cool? but if I'm a "sicko" for how I process my shit through art then fuck you, pretty much?

I think people that enjoy horror movies are sickos that got the lucky end of the stick and haven't had to really deal with life or death stuff.

Yeah, this type of horror fan exists. But I know three separate people who have had life or death stuff, and who are into horror films (related to their experiences or not as it may be, I don't know). Okay, that's three anecdotal ppl cardamon knows, not a great argument I know.

Some horror films though, it feels somehow as though the director knows what fear is and they're on the level with you. Hithcock w/Psycho and Birds, Argento w/Suspiria, and I got this vibe from Texas Chainsaw Massacre too, like the director had got a sense of some dark horrible shit that is 'in' Texas and was putting this across?

Would not put I Spit On Your Grave on this list.

My phrasing is shit here. Does any of this make sense.

Well we all stop loving horror movies when we die, so he may be onto something there.

Real talk

do zombies like horror movies

They help them cope.

sickos

they want to see what it's like to run fast and quicken in seconds.

I guess I should be glad that this thread went as long as it did before someone showed up and literally called horror fans sickos, one of the very things I was bitching about in the earliest parts of this thread.

getting butthurt that someone called you a sicko because you like the genre that brought us "tree rape" is the definition of a first world problem

whiney, ilx weatherman

ilx weather underground

That's the nicest compliment I've ever handed someone I don't believe I like.

Lol at getting that from a dude that spends a lot of time getting aggro over differing music crit opinions and getting picked on for eating at subway

any given whiney post is a first world problem

No doubt

cool it guys. i don't like where this is going.

who are you, the fonz

i think we wld be in denial if we didn't acknowledge that part of the pleasure in watching horror films is interrogating our own sadism via the comforting prism of genre tropes, but for me the most interesting horror movies are invariably those where our identification constantly moves between monster and victim - where we recognise the thrill of transgression and the terror of victimisation.

Settle down guys so Adam Bruneau can next explain to us the hypocrisy behind liberals not being tolerant of other peoples' intolerance.

Thou shalt not zing ... except!

i think we wld be in denial if we didn't acknowledge that part of the pleasure in watching horror films is interrogating our own sadism via the comforting prism of genre tropes, but for me the most interesting horror movies are invariably those where our identification constantly moves between monster and victim - where we recognise the thrill of transgression and the terror of victimisation.

yeah this is true & good imo

u sick fuck

me irl tbh

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6512/558/1600/File0479.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/etienne_saint/image_zps0e8ea81f.jpg

why the hell did you all let Adam troll you

because we're sickos jeez have you not been paying attention

I don't like horror movies, and I don't like gore. I think a lot of it has to do w being real sick as a kid and spending lots of traumatic time in hospitals. I think people that enjoy horror movies are sickos that got the lucky end of the stick and haven't had to really deal with life or death stuff.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 20 February 2014 00:08

I'm fine with people not liking entire genres/mediums/forms for their own personal reasons but casting aspersions on entire audiences is nagl

― How dare you tarnish the reputation of Turturro's yodel (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 20 February 2014 00:21

Cool of y'all to step in and be judgmental about how you shouldn't be judgmental.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 20 February 2014 00:55

lol dude you're the guy who swung in with a bullshit opinion. I love gore movies precisely because they help me deal with childhood trauma, if that's not valid for you in your own life then cool? but if I'm a "sicko" for how I process my shit through art then fuck you, pretty much?

― joe perry has been dead for years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 20 February 2014 01:43

Yeah, this type of horror fan exists. But I know three separate people who have had life or death stuff, and who are into horror films (related to their experiences or not as it may be, I don't know). Okay, that's three anecdotal ppl cardamon knows, not a great argument I know.

Some horror films though, it feels somehow as though the director knows what fear is and they're on the level with you. Hithcock w/Psycho and Birds, Argento w/Suspiria, and I got this vibe from Texas Chainsaw Massacre too, like the director had got a sense of some dark horrible shit that is 'in' Texas and was putting this across?

Would not put I Spit On Your Grave on this list.

― cardamon, Thursday, 20 February 2014 03:50 (1 year ago)

What Adam said is very far from the truth. It's amazing how so many horror fans and creators have suffered serious trauma or some other deeply unpleasant things. I remember one particularly harrowing account from a horror reader whose younger years were in the most horrible circumstances I've heard anyone talk about on a forum.

Quite a lot of these people find horror therapeutic. Joanna Russ said one of the reasons she likes horror is because it made her feel less alone in thinking the universe was so horrible, even when put in an fantasy fashion.

Yeah that's a load of bs i said there.

A lot of horror writers jokingly say that they are the most well adjusted writers of any genre because they get all the bad shit out their system. I don't know how much truth might be in that.

I'm not sure why but in the past year I've been very disturbed by things that I wouldn't have flinched at before. I've never been particularly into realistic and mundane horror but I think now I'm even avoiding it a little now.
I might give Jack Ketchum a try because he is so highly acclaimed, as well as the main bestsellers who have nasty stuff peppering their work (Masterton, Laymon), not sure about the extremist speciality guys.
original European decadents and conte cruels writers might be easier to swallow for their emphasis on beauty.

I'm just popping in here briefly because with the advent of Trayvon Martin's killing on through the most recent shooting of Charles Kinsey, I realized that part of my baseline ongoing experience as a black American is constant lurking sublimated dread that an authority figure will turn on me for no reason and kill me, which mirrors very closely the anxiety and fear I experience when I watch horror movies, and my subconscious cannot detach one reaction from the other. Which is another way of saying that the scares I get from most horror movies mirror exactly literal ongoing concerns about my actual safety and my emotional reactions cannot distinguish between the two situations (although now that I've made this connection, maybe I can convince my subconscious that reactions to horror movies aren't real).

Is it the same for ghosts and monsters stuff?

Depends on the monster, really, and the tone/nature of the film.