American Jihadists

I thought there was a previous thread devoted to this phenomenon but I can't seem to find it. so here's this one. bump any time an American citizen is reported being involved in jihadist/radical Islamic terrorist sorta nonsense. Its so weird to see average, non-recent-immigrant American people caught up in this, the psychology involved is just bizarre (I can only assume - this stuff doesn't seem to get exhaustive coverage most of the time).

Here's the latest: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/mumbai-terror-suspect-pleads-guilty/?hpt=T1. Sounds like this is also connected to blond-haired, blue-eyed "Jihad Jane" case as well...

and then there was that family of white dudes in Virginia (or So. Carolina...? can't remember). And the dude the psych counselor that went on a shooting spree at that military base. and the "American Taliban" guy...

never thought this kind of philosophy would really take hold in America, since here the Muslim religion is generally not as intensely associated with an extensive immigrant underclass as it is in other countries. the history of Islam in this country is much more convoluted/complicated, especially within the African American community.

so nobody else thinks this is odd/interesting sociological development eh

feelin sorry for the 6yo, I gotta say

so nobody else thinks this is odd/interesting sociological development eh

since the US is the bête noire of islamists i find it - outside of the Middle East, Chechnya, Malaysia etc. - the most natural place you would expect a muslim to become radicalised. The converts are a bit more of a puzzler I suppose.

i do not find them much more puzzling than other weirdos

yeah embittered right-wing militia-types are fairly easy to grasp and are also part of a fairly long-standing tradition of American wackjobs. These homegrown jihadists are a bit more of a new wrinkle.

- outside of the Middle East, Chechnya, Malaysia etc. - the most natural place you would expect a muslim to become radicalised

but see this doesn't make sense, just because it's the target doesn't really provide any rationale for its citizens to turn against it. And the history of Islam in the Middle East, Chechnya, Malaysia, etc. is radically different from the history of Islam in the US, primarily because there isn't the spectre of the crusades, and the fact that Islam's oldest historic roots in this country are from immigrants fleeing repressive regimes on the one hand, and fringe-y black militants/mystics on the other. Which makes for a much different Muslim population than the ones you find in Europe or Asia.

On top of that, by the looks of it a lot of these American jihadist types are blond-haired blue-eyed white folks i.e., fairly recent converts to the faith with little to no Muslim heritage. so what makes these people gravitate to the most extreme end of their new-found faith, and do crazy shit like drag their 6yo children into it and plot suicide missions?

surely converting to islam is fairly extreme within the context of middle american lifestyle choices and suggests a gestural antipopulism, therefore it oughtn't surprise that they would engage with the more extreme strains of islam

yeah it just happens to be the issue of the day so the obvious thing for a lost, possibly mentally ill young person to get into

i mean there are also similar violent loners doing stuff not in the name of islam, but i don't see them as structurally different

tend to agree

alienated oddballs will find a prism to hate the society they live in. Choosing an ideology that considers their society the nadir of imperialism and corruption in the world seems fairly natural.

there's not a lot of info available about any of these people (yet) so while drawing that kind of conclusion - that these people all fall into yr standard crazy mysanthrope latching onto whatever ideology is most readily available - is tempting, I still wonder if it really covers the whole story.

"Jihad Jane" is 46yo for ex., not yr standard alienated young man with chip on shoulder

David Coleman Headley, formerly known as Daood Sayed Gilani, (born June 30, 1960) is a Chicago-based Pakistani American, who conspired with Lashkar-e-Taiba[1] and Pakistani ex-military officers[2] to launch the 2008 Mumbai attacks and other terrorist activity.[3][4] He changed his Muslim name to a Judaeo-Christian name to hide his Muslim identity[5] to make travel to India easier.[6]

Gilani was born in Washington, D. C., where his father, Sayed Salim Gilani, worked for the Voice of America, and his mother, Serrill Headley, was a secretary. Danyal Gilani, spokesman for the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Yousaf Raza Gillani, is Headley's half brother

there was some speculation here that 'jihadists' were trying to recruit native converts because of their innocuous appearance

it's probably not lost on wavering antisocial types that they could be special for the same reason they are utterly unremarkable within wider society

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/11/vinas.cruickshank.analysis/index.html?hpt=Sbin

n the last year, there have been 16 cases of Americans or American residents implicated in Islamist terrorism, a surge in such cases. The Times Square plot is case No. 17.

Holder identifies this as a problem

a fairly new one

for whatever reason

fuck these scumbags

(by that I mean Holder and all who roll with him)

"You didn't worry about this even 2 years ago..."

Timothy McVeigh is probably pissed.

McVeigh not a muslim iirc

oh okay, so we want to isolate the christian american terrorists from the muslim ones. got it.

for whatever reason

fuck these scumbags

you think Awlaki's reasoning is relevant why...?

oh okay, so we want to isolate the christian american terrorists from the muslim ones. got it.

in terms of a social phenomenon, yeah of course (see my initial post that started this thread)

legally no distinction should be made

yeah embittered right-wing militia-types are fairly easy to grasp and are also part of a fairly long-standing tradition of American wackjobs. These homegrown jihadists are a bit more of a new wrinkle.

― kulinary gangsta (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, April 2, 2010 10:10 PM (8 months ago) Bookmark

for whatever reason

fuck these scumbags

― smexy fishy hawt joey martin (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:55 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Why, you think its reasonable to go become a jihadist? Maybe we should slap one of those British style disorderly conduct orders you are so fond of on their asses and that will keep them in line.

I should clarify - obviously Awlaki's reasoning is relevant to understanding WHY average white american male decides to become a muslim terrorist. But I don't see why it should be relevant to Holder.

"i'm very concerned about something i have no interest in understanding"

Emotional of me, perhaps, but I'll let the music do the talking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzJbpZN4IqU

And I'll add: terrorism is a construct of the Western media and state. Both in its conception and in its actuality.

at what point was Awlaki treated like a terrorist prior to moving to Yemen and issuing calls for the destruction of America

And I'll add: terrorism is a construct of the Western media and state. Both in its conception and in its actuality.

― smexy fishy hawt joey martin (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:10 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

Goddamn, that is some jive, freshman dorm crap philosophy right there.

Why, you think its reasonable to go become a jihadist? Maybe we should slap one of those British style disorderly conduct orders you are so fond of on their asses and that will keep them in line.

― Randy Moss' dog's personal chef (Bill Magill), Tuesday, 21 December 2010 22:02 (8 minutes ago)

It's not reasonable to go about one's protest by executing innocents. That's fucking awful. Thing is, it's even worse when innocents are executed not in the name of protest, but in the name of sheer greed. Now, don't get me wrong, 'Islamic terrorism' is largely funded by those with a financial interest in keeping a running battle going with America. Both sides are corporate evils, and on both sides it is the footsoldiers who suffer. But I know which side has copped a higher death toll. It ain't you Americans.

Awlaki's just another venture shitstirrer; he may be a complete shit but he's not accomplishing a great deal on his own except making himself very visible! It's the people he might recruit that I'm worried about. If they perceive that America already rejects them, and if they're violently inclined, weak-willed, stupid, desperate, or downright terrified, they might well be seduced by such views, and they might well think about returning fire. How many actually get round to doing so, though? The Attorney-General's men are very efficient!

The Attorney-General's men are very efficient!

lol they definitely are not! unless you consider entrapping the occasional teenager "efficient"

And I'll add: terrorism is a construct of the Western media and state. Both in its conception and in its actuality.

― smexy fishy hawt joey martin (acoleuthic), Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:10 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

Goddamn, that is some jive, freshman dorm crap philosophy right there.

― Randy Moss' dog's personal chef (Bill Magill), Tuesday, 21 December 2010 22:17 (9 minutes ago)

For once I agree with Bill Magill about something.

stick to prog rock kid

cutting rebukes imo

don't really 'get' this thread tbh

Lol lj still smarting from ethan calling him racist over jihadis and overcompensating.

^^^^^

don't really 'get' this thread tbh

I think my first few posts are pretty clear...? I'm interested in the social phenomenon wherein average, non-immigrant, whitebread americans become muslim fanatics.

Yeah actually I don't really get the thread either. Not sure how much you can call something that probably occurs at a rate of like 1/10 million a "social phenomenon"

well it's a small but significant increase from 0/10 million

Shakey, people with deep, unresolved fears and/or anger can adopt all sorts of coping mechanisms. The number of whitebread Americans who self-select into the dark corner of Islam that nurtures terrorists is small, probably because the number of local portals into that world are so small and few.

Otoh, there are plenty of portals they can pass through to join up with white supremacists, militias, LaRouchies, fag-hating fundie groups and a whole spectrum of cults of various shades of violence or insanity. It isn't like there is much of a wide-mouthed funnel that captures them for militantly terrorist wahabi islam. Same process, though.

Lol lj still smarting from ethan calling him racist over jihadis and overcompensating.

― À la recherche du temps Pardew (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 21 December 2010 22:33 (Yesterday)

naw this emanates from what I perceive as socio-political reality - my beliefs, while obviously always open to challenge, are very, very different now - although yeah that ethering helped me grow up a bit

sorry if I seem like I'm condoning terrorirm. I'm not, just pointing out that the American authorities aren't exactly blameless when it comes to the cause of 'terrorist elements' within the USA

I really don't have any idea what you're referring to. Aimless' psychological angle seems more valid to me than some kind of "American authorities oppressed me and gave me no choice but to adopt a previously foreign religion, move to the desert, and issue fatwas" scenario

I mean these guys aren't the Black Panthers, they aren't responding to police officers killing their children and whatnot

I guess I'm trying to answer 'why would any disenfranchised person choose such a path' - my guess is that those who do are simply looking for a way out - so yeah, Aimless is right. I'm politicising it somewhat and dragging it away from the 'why do whitebread types go Jihad' question you're trying to ask. It all comes down to an oppressed lower-class needing release; unless there's some weird psychological temptation towards combat, triggered by dislike of neighbours/local society.

Few of the American Jihadists have been "oppressed lower-class," they're mostly disaffected middle and upper-middle class white kids IIRC.

The choice is either become a Goth or follow Allah, presumably.

sorry if I seem like I'm condoning terrorirm. I'm not, just pointing out that the American authorities aren't exactly blameless when it comes to the cause of 'terrorist elements' within the USA

I am about as far left as human beings get and this is complete and utter bullshit.

Please don't try to dress up your harebrained nonsense as criticism from the left, please.

and another please just to make it clear

nah that's so. islamic terrorist dudes in the US always say they're reacting to the admin's actions abroad and there's no reason to think that's bullshit.

White Jihadists saying they felt so bad about US actions they decided to kill americans doesn't mean that "American authorities share blame."

That's an argument you can make when it comes to Israel and Palestine or the US fomenting terrorist support among the people it's killing across the globe. Not when we're talking about some chucklehead in Colorado Springs. The reasonable response to US wrongdoing isn't to start killing soldiers or American civilians - and you can't hold the government or outsiders responsible for an individual's unreasonable response.

sorry if I seem like I'm condoning terrorirm. I'm not, just pointing out that the American authorities aren't exactly blameless when it comes to the cause of 'terrorist elements' within the USA

I am about as far left as human beings get and this is complete and utter bullshit.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:59 PM (59 minutes ago)

are you fucking kidding me

No. It's absurd to claim that "American authorities" are to blame when a middle-class white kid from the 'burbs declares a personal fatwa on American civilians and signs up with Al Qaeda.

There's a whole heap of shit you can actually lay blame on "American authorities" for - including these assholes just makes every other argument look weaker.

White Jihadists saying they felt so bad about US actions they decided to kill americans doesn't mean that "American authorities share blame."

That's an argument you can make when it comes to Israel and Palestine or the US fomenting terrorist support among the people it's killing across the globe. Not when we're talking about some chucklehead in Colorado Springs. The reasonable response to US wrongdoing isn't to start killing soldiers or American civilians - and you can't hold the government or outsiders responsible for an individual's unreasonable response.

― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Tuesday, December 21, 2010 10:07 PM (53 minutes ago)

there's a distinction to be made between radicalized individuals such as faisal shazad & the fort hood shooter, and the kind of people shakey is trying to pinpoint with this thread. you would of course have to be a complete idiot to not accept that the former are clearly reacting in some way to US policy - they've said it themselves - while the latter are a bit more difficult to pin down. i think it'd be silly to not believe that the same reaction doesn't at least in part fuel these people as well.

the bit about how you "can't hold the government or outsiders responsible for an individual's unreasonable response" is complete bullshit as well, sorry - whether targeting civilians is an acceptable or reasonable response to, uh, the government killing civilians is, while pretty clearly not OK to everyone here, at the very least debatable hypothetically. the idea that the two are causally related and that perhaps policy should be modified in order to minimize the perfectly legitimate anger it creates is not.

Neither Faisal Shazad nor the Fort Hood shooter are applicable, Kev. The question we're looking at pretty much explicitly revolves around white Americans raised in other faiths (or no faith) who become radical Islamists as young adults or adults.

whether targeting civilians is an acceptable or reasonable response to, uh, the government killing civilians is, while pretty clearly not OK to everyone here, at the very least debatable hypothetically

It's really not, sorry. That's an argument, as I said, that could work for people in the nations being attacked or with potentially legitimate feelings of oppression by the United States. It does not work for Johnny from Culver City.

ok the thing you quoted from lj was pretty general and i was making sure what you said didn't extend to your average homegrown terrorist or dude whose family is getting blown up by obama sky robots. i don't have much of an explanation for your jihad janes other than white ppl be crazy

swing...and a miss

gotta love how the FBI built the fake bomb

these schemes where the authorities identify someone as a potential jihadist and then aid them in a fake scheme and then arrest them is so weird

the fbi has proved to be very adept at foiling its own terror plots

weird is one word

the fbi has proved to be very adept at foiling its own terror plots

I know right? how do they do it