that thing white ppl do when they disparage 'white ppl'

mandatory

I've done it myself, but now I think it's a bit tacky. Trying too hard.

that thing ___ ppl do when they ____ '____ ppl'

Congrats on using the word "tendentious" tho

when they do this, i tend to think "finally they get it"

or, what eric h said

that thing ___ ppl do when they ____ '____ ppl'

― mdskltr (blueski), Friday, April 23, 2010 8:40 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yes.

people don't understand that when we do this, we are playing ourselves

happy st george's day motherfuckers!

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/liverpoolecho/apr2009/2/8/image-6-for-gallery-region-celebrates-st-george-s-day-405459912.jpg

there needs to be more white ppl thinking about white ppl in totality

they shd read more fanon/ignatiev/malcolm x and less 'stuff white people like'

^^ i feel like ppl who are keen to disparage white ppl are also keen to big up malcolm x & fanon & whoever

http://agrammar.tumblr.com/post/207970845/white

What surprises me, though, is how many white speakers—including people who are relatively savvy about race and culture—seem completely unbothered by the very obvious problems involved in using a racial shorthand for them. Some will quite casually use “white” as code for a certain set of qualities—safety, cleverness, politeness, education, middle-class manner, “literary” pretensions, alleged blandness—without, so far as I can tell, much noticing the shadow of opposites that casts on everyone else. (Danger? Vulgarity? Ignorance? Poverty? Savagery?) Some will argue, in earnest, that they’re actually taking the side of some vibrant other thing over bland, upscale whiteness—all without noticing how very old and familiar that line is. (Haven’t white audiences traditionally admired black artists as a source of transgression, of danger, of dirt, of “authenticity,” of “soul,” of “primitive” thrills?)

i tend to use 'white' as shorthand for 'white', but maybe i haven't read all of that strawman with the appropriate care and attention.

xp- yep

max's quote above is massively OTM. This is always said by people who whether consciously aware of it or not are drowning in 1950s "White Negro" crap. "I'm not really white, I listen to hip-hop! I'm not really white, I live down the street from a pupuseria that's muy autentico! I'm not really white, I don't own a TV!"

Why not just bring the word "bourgeois" back? It means something! And the thing it means is something people obviously want to express! And then people can stop denoting that thing by "white" or "suburban" or "American" or whatever other evidently wrong proxy they're using now.

I'm the whitest girl in the world AND I live down the street from eleventy-six jerk joints. Okay not anymore, now I live down the street from NYU. I miss the curry.

i lump this sort of stuff in with hipster bashing et al, the white people in things white people like are simultaneously a really narrow subculture and a vaguely defined punching bag for people who consider themselves above it.

max's quote above is massively OTM.

some white bread itt

[nabisco]'s blog post touches on one of my socio-political pet peeves, the one about black people not having the privilege to possess traits commonly defined as "white." In the black majority this tendency seems reinforced by their culture, particularly youth culture and the media they consume, but I think they do it, i.e., embrace things that are interpreted as urban, dangerous, primitive, and "black," as a way of appropriating and exalting an image thrust on them, because it's something they can do well, that they can do better than anyone else, and because it gives them a confidence that maybe their situations don't. They would rather be "black" than compete with whites at being "white," who haven't historically (and continue not to) let them be.

I suspect that this tendency boomed when the US deindustrialized in the seventies & eighties and the livelihoods of many of the black majority were lost. I also think that housing projects, in that they are culturally irresponsible uses of living space that have further fragmented community and family units, have exacerbated the problem.

Though black people also identify whiteness apart from "white"-ness and apart from the bourgeois.

youre skating on thin ice there bam

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Yoko_Ono_-_Waking_on_Thin_Ice_(2003).jpg
Tell me why.

Why not just bring the word "bourgeois" back? It means something!

If I could just kill this one word, my entire life would have meant something. Also, afaik, the only white people who can even say this word correctly are the French.

http://annenahm.com/anneimage/2009/11/Michael+Jackson+Jackson_popcorn.gif

I say "paper mâché."

I'm the whitest girl in the world

Can you unpack what you mean by that, though?

her skin is this color: http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=4820506

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xfxmmOzXySs/SYAsMgcOTPI/AAAAAAAAAL8/xb4-GR4X9qE/s400/unpack+adjectives.jpg

Tell me why.

For one thing, you're treating "black people" monolithically. This is one thing that Nabisco has written astutely about -- one of the problems with using "white" as shorthand for "middle-class" or "dorky" or "liberal arts grad" is that it implicitly writes out all of the non-whites who literally exist in these spaces.

In the black majority this tendency seems reinforced by their culture, particularly youth culture and the media they consume

its not that i dont see what youre saying here (and fwiw i dont think i agree, but whatever), its just a kind of problematic way of saying it, isnt it? making sort of vague generalities abt the habits of a race is not a particularly constructive way to have a conversation, even if your hearts int the right place, in other words.

xp jaymc otm

yeah i was gonna get started on a post for this thread and i then i thought, no

ppl are white btw

u stole my post

like 30 secs faster and it would be my login under that post

people of non-color

Hmm, if I've ever disparaged a 'white person' it's generally when they're exhibiting some annoying form of 'white privilege'.

making sort of vague generalities abt the habits of a race is not a particularly constructive way to have a conversation, even if your hearts int the right place

well the thing is people's hearts usually aren't in the right place and they're not trying to have a constructive conversation - it's usually always as in "lol white people". i thought you of all people were into internet lols at the expense of others~

race vs. class

if any american whites are interested in mitigating for their whiteness feel free to sign the petition to pass the dream act, has something to do with stopping illegal mexican kids from getting deported or something, i dunno

i thought you of all people were into internet lols at the expense of others~

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, April 23, 2010 11:54 AM

u do know dom doesn't post here anymore rite

this just in: white people still corny

This sounds like the worst thing

Not monolithically. Generalizing is not stereotyping, and it doesn't preclude the existence of people who don't fit. And "black majority," a phrase widely used and understood, narrows the group down quite a lot, and talking about black youth narrows the group further.

My argument's not quite the same as his, but it's not too different from the way Houston Baker talks about US blacks using generalizations. He includes more examples but he's writing books, not ilx posts.

Holy Jesus and Mary Chain and Joseph.

one of the problems with using "white" as shorthand for "middle-class" or "dorky" or "liberal arts grad" is that it implicitly writes out all of the non-whites who literally exist in these spaces.

That's implicitly in my post. That's what I said I disliked.

well the thing is people's hearts usually aren't in the right place and they're not trying to have a constructive conversation - it's usually always as in "lol white people". i thought you of all people were into internet lols at the expense of others~

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, April 23, 2010 11:54 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i dont think we disagree? what do you think im trying to say?

"heart's in the right place" "problematic"

Just call me racist.

u r not racist
u r white ppl tho

Not monolithically. Generalizing is not stereotyping, and it doesn't preclude the existence of people who don't fit. And "black majority," a phrase widely used and understood, narrows the group down quite a lot, and talking about black youth narrows the group further.

generalizing isnt stereotyping, but it suffers from some of the same discursive problems, doesnt it? and im not sure "black majority" is quite a widely-used and understood as you think!

I have well-meaning friends who are asking “what do we do now?’ and having trouble sleeping, and there’s a thread that unites their frustration that makes me feel unsettled. The answer isn’t great, in that you stay alert, listen to the concerns of people who are marginalized, threatened, or at risk and do what is within your power to help them. And that may be of some significant level of help, and possibly even include options that people without cover or means wouldn’t consider.

But some of it seems to come from being white, male, cis, or all of those and feeling disempowered because you can’t walk in and defuse things. And feeling worse about that than people facing actual adversity or threats. I’m guilty of this, too, but it’s not helping others because you can offer help but you don’t take on the burden of others by feeling bad

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, November 7, 2024 11:46 PM bookmarkflaglink

this is a great point and something I didn't even realize I was doing until after George Floyd/etc happened and getting called out for it. a hard habit to break too when white savior complex is so pervasive.

I'm sure someone else here knows more about this than I do, but there might be an element of all of us having to raise our capacity for distress tolerance. Someone who is more on the margins in different ways lives with a high level of distress, discomfort, anxiety, dissonance, whatever--at all times. Some of us are less familiar with that type of stress, and it would be good to wrestle with that lack of capacity in ourselves.

that tiny window of tolerance is what we used to call "first world problems" but i agree it is also white ppl problems

I've seen several social media posts where white women are trying to make blue bracelets to show they're allies a thing and on every single one several black women are like please don't do this performative bs and the white ladies get so mad like "Fine, we won't help you then!" ._.

tangentially: I have a friend who works for a local youth shelter/services program, and has been helping with this workforce development program ("here is how and why you should get a job and how that works in a functional way") where the kids (late teens/early 20s) work in a community garden but also go to educational programs, job tours, etc.

these kids have lived in the most disorganized, precarious situations. only one of them really was stressing about the election results earlier this week, because how is this even on their radar in a substantial way?

it sounds like some of the job tours they've gone on have been really good, some less so. but this week, just a couple days after the election, they went to a cautionary seminar about drugs. it kicked off with a speaker who claimed that there was a surge in the popularity of meth following Breaking Bad. you know, the show that made meth look cool and popular?!

I had to laugh, because I'm fretting about the election and some 20 year old who has never had any sense of stability is being told that if you even touch a pill that has fentanyl in it with your bare hands, you'll be hooked on drugs for life.

I'm sure someone else here knows more about this than I do, but there might be an element of all of us having to raise our capacity for distress tolerance. Someone who is more on the margins in different ways lives with a high level of distress, discomfort, anxiety, dissonance, whatever--at all times. Some of us are less familiar with that type of stress, and it would be good to wrestle with that lack of capacity in ourselves.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Friday, November 8, 2024 10:11 AM bookmarkflaglink

this is definitely a thing I struggle with. the other issue is that being a caretaker for a totally disabled parent during a global pandemic kept me in a high level of relatively permanent distress for 3 years and so I began going into self-preservation mode by either burying my feelings or wanting to remove stressors relatively instantly, so I've had to battle myself to not do that.

so this is a great point. and something I'll come back to every time my worst instincts take over.

lots of good posts here

Re: distress tolerance, I don't want to discredit the panic a lot of people are feeling, but this seems like more of a situation where we need to be pragmatic, hunker down, build connections, support each other, and prepare for a long struggle. I'm disconcerted by all the people, mostly white, mostly more affluent, who immediately have declared they are leaving because they are sensing an immediate danger when there are many more people who are far more likely to be targeted that would be left behind. There are lots of scary things that can happen, but it is self-defeating to assume the absolute worst case scenario is guaranteed to drop tomorrow and nothing can be done about it. Don't forget it's your country too, you have a voice and agency, and there are a whole lot of likeminded people to stand with.

I do think some of it is also performative, and let me be clear that I'm not saying cishet White people aren't feeling legitimate stress/anxiety about what happened and what is coming, but there's a tendency for everyone to share their distress in hyperbolic fashion as a demonstration that "I care and I'm not ignoring what is happening", especially when they see their friends who are scared because they're the ones being targeted expressing their fears and terror.

the most helpful clapback I got when I did that was "I already know it's horrible, you don't need to keep reminding me". they wanted to vent, they wanted someone to listen, they didn't want me telling them what they already knew.

I'm disconcerted by all the people, mostly white, mostly more affluent, who immediately have declared they are leaving because they are sensing an immediate danger when there are many more people who are far more likely to be targeted that would be left behind.

I think the thing that bugs me more about this is that few of the people who say this actually do wind up leaving, it's just performative nonsense. in addition to this thread, the thought that convinced me moving wasn't an option for me personally was asking myself "what is the purpose of you leaving? to flee imminent danger, or to be free of having to fight because you're tired?"

(I'm not here to judge anybody that does choose to leave, for the record, but it is also true, as has been stated above and by Alfred many times before, that if all of us leave, nobody is left to fight for those who need it)

I am too angry to panic. Also I was busy getting a pneumonia diagnosis on Election Day so when I came back from the hospital, made a deliberate choice to try for sleep. Didn’t watch the coverage, or the concession from Harris. Not watching the pundit class firing squads right now is VERY wise. There are some really pugnacious, gloaty chuds out there trying to freak out The Libs for LOLs too, so I have been supporting my hometown friends if arseholes appear in their posts.

for some, leaving the country might be a genuine attempt to go somewhere where they're able to live with fewer threats to their well-being, but I get the impression that for a lot of better-off people it's just an abdication. all of the clickbait articles about expats in Portugal, I don't think I've seen a single one where one of these people speaks about the specific politics of Portugal outside of some hand-waving and tut-tutting about US politics

Also, not to keep harping on about this, but even from a selfish and/or pragmatic pov,the right wing drift, while not a worlwide thing, is certainly present in most of the countries ppl consider moving to and right now if I moved anywhere it'd be with the knowledge that if the fash aren't already in charge they soon will be. It just feels like some weird variation on exceptionalism to think the US is an outlier.

From a European perspective I know that unfortunately there are millions of people in Europe who would gladly vote for Trump if they could, not to mention plenty of Trump-like politicians there also.

yeah, it's everywhere. I used to joke about moving to New Zealand, and now they have Christopher Luxon and the National party

i would totally move if i had the money! but i don't have any money. you need a lot of money to move to another country.

something anti-immigration assholes really don't understand. they think everybody is showing up on our doorstep because they are too lazy to fill out 5-minute paperwork or something.

not that these ghouls actually care about 'process', but anyway I'm off-topic now

i kinda wanted to move to the orkney islands after reading about donald trump's mother. you have to deal with a lot of cruise ship tourists though.

nice houses for cheap though: https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/149336588#/?channel=RES_BUY

I am so angry about all those posts. Most people can just up and move to another country and they're acting like it's the easiest thing in the world. Having done it twice it's fucking incredibly difficult and expensive and people being flippant about it are pissing me off. Also - if anything this makes me want to move home and fight not flee. That whole reaction is so weird to me.

x-post I am obsessed with the orkneys. I used to watch a webcam in a town there in like 2001. They're so hard to get to but there's a 12 hour overnight ferry that I'd like to do some time.

I meant most people *can't* just up and move. Also - it's difficult and expensive as a person with a EU passport. Trying to go the visa route would be much tougher and even more expensive.

At this point, I am just willing to grant everyone who is upset about the election grace in how they respond to this in the short-term, including being angry or annoyed at how other people perform their grief and anxiety.

people are going to be weird for awhile. i'm just trying to be nice to people in general. also, i haven't looked at/watched the news since Tuesday night other than to scan the front page of a newspaper online and this has made me feel much less crazy. i can't believe how much news i was consuming before the election. and all those rallies i watched...oof. but i was just trying to be positive. now i'm just trying to keep it together. and, as always, provide a safe and sane place for the people of main street greenfield ma to chill 6 days a week.

read those fuckin mole books and report back!

weve asked you nicely twice ☹️

I lived in the Orkneys for a time as a child. Beautiful! Hoy especially. Bad food and didn’t make any friends tho

I am so angry about all those posts. Most people can just up and move to another country and they're acting like it's the easiest thing in the world. Having done it twice it's fucking incredibly difficult and expensive and people being flippant about it are pissing me off. Also - if anything this makes me want to move home and fight not flee. That whole reaction is so weird to me.

thank you -- otm

"Bad food and didn’t make any friends tho"

these look okay. i'm guessing if they get a lot of cruise ship business the food is probably better there now. i would have to learn to love fish a lot more though. if i ever moved anywhere it would just be to read books and walk on the beach. but i doubt i will ever move anywhere. again, the money...

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g190780-Kirkwall_Mainland_Orkney_Islands_Scotland.html

Just did a quick search and Orkney Islands had 36% vote for brexit, which iirc is the same number your current home had for Trump? So you'd break even.

Totally understand the appeal tho, was raised on an island myself (S Miguel) and really feel I need to visit.

i did live on an island for 6 years and i felt really isolated. but i'm older now. i like being around rocks.

They also have a college in Kirkwall. I could teach Advanced Western Massachusetts Freak Folk And Noise.

"read those fuckin mole books and report back!"

saw this by the way! posted on the fantasy thread.

I think they prefer to be called Orkney rather than the Orkney Islands up there. I'm sure it's OK if you don't mind the North Sea wind cutting you like a scythe for nine months of the year.

A friend of mine and his wife retired to Kirkwall after living their working years in London. I don't see too many downsides from their FB feeds, though they don't report every day's weather.

Aside from the visible shipwrecks poking out of the ocean (there are a lot of them!), and Viking ruins, this is the coolest thing about Orkney imo:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwall_Ba%27_Game

Yes, full of English people that's the other drawback.

Orkney actually has a really long and interesting history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skara_Brae

im from an island in the atlantic and the idea that our simple but honest table fare would be elevated by the influence of an influx of cruise ship passengers bewilders me

Yeah same, cruise ship food ain't shit.

no but people might open up more restaurants if there are more people. that's what i meant. more variety?

the island i lived on was not great for food because it was either fried fish or restaurants where everything was way too expensive. nothing in between. so i cooked a lot. $5 brazilian chicken lunches were dope though.

oh but also i was just responding to fgti who said the orkney food was bad. i don't require much when it comes to food though.

man, i am really good at daydreaming about places i will never move to.

orkward silence

They are called Orcadians there! You guys didn't tell me that. that is really cool.

I posted about leaving the US a few times on Wednesday. Was looking into it for various reasons earlier in the year, but after Tuesday its now obv a more intense decision. Those were incredibly sad and vulnerable posts for me to make. Even though I've been on this board for decades I don't normally like to open up like that on ILX, tbh because people can be real shits (vastly less so than in Ye Olden Days of ILX, but still.) I'm sure no one was talking about me or my little posts, but still, seeing posters itt throwing around terms like enraging, performative, saying ppl who make that decision are cowardly, quitters, privileged, blinkered, etc... I get what & who you think you're talking about but just... you don't know people's circumstances, is all I'll say. Try to be gentle, give people some grace, this week above all ffs.

(Bizarrely enough, spending time & making friends in Orkney last year was a major factor in my partner & I starting to think about leaving. We actually liked the food.)

I wish you luck! I find it traumatic just to move in general. Moving to another country would be scary. But there are ALL kinds of reasons to do anything. People should understand that. And you can do whatever you want! I honestly don't know where I would feel more comfortable or safer or saner. Maybe that place doesn't exist for me. I hope you find something better wherever that may be.

Haha, it ALL leads back to Orkney!

I think what made the local cuisine better in S Miguel now compared to my childhood is mostly the internet giving local cooks more resources, perhaps also cheaper flights leading to locals being exposed to different cuisines. Better availabity of ingredients for sure, this I sadly have to state is kind of capitalism at work, the local supermarkets got killed by the national chains and the national chains got bought out by French conglomerates but y'know, the French know their onions.

All the cruise ship ppl are usually coralled, barely spend any money on the island, dunno if they just dind on thr ship or if there's an exclusive contract with some place.

some of my oldest and dearest friends live in Orkney and Shetland. They're all very liberal and open-minded, but I get the impression the majority of the island inhabitants are quite different, and the stories they've told me about drug addiction ruining communities are grim.

Just to be clear, my time in Orkney was early 90s. Across the UK there seems to have been a culinary shift since then

Gordon Ramsay didn't even know how to make a sticky toffee pudding in the early 90s.