Florida Thinks Women Should Be Forced to Have Ultrasounds Before Having an Abortion

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=155472

Words can't express how livid I am at the passing of this bill, and I'm hoping Crist vetoes it. I had to pull myself away from this debate as because you know, this is a topic that divides people, regardless of relation, but I was inspired after a Facebook 'friend' innocuously described the bill as something that allows women to get more information prior to having an abortion. As if they can't have an ultrasound now if they choose to beforehand?

No, the bill is *forcing* them to have one first, which is essentially a way of guilting them into not having the abortion. "How can you kill something so adorable?". And who will be forced to pay for the ultrasound, hmm? It's especially nice that if the woman is terminating the pregnancy due to being unable to afford enduring a 9 month pregnancy, they will now be saddled with an additional mandatory cost.

But, I'm not looking for this thread to "reaffirm" my beliefs, I'm curious for your perspectives. I posted this outside of the existing abortion discussion because I don't want this to turn into a discussion about the merits of abortion/Roe v. Wade, but just this bill in particular. I know it is inevitable that some sidebar conversation about it will come up, but let's try to keep to the bill at hand.

I keep having recurring visions of me dying in a hail of gunfire at a young age after going on a bloodthirsty rampage. I'm more and more convinced each day that if and when this happens, Florida and Floridians will have led me to it.

we're talking about this over in the politics thread. there are four states doing this kind of thing right now, and one very silent national democratic party not worrying too much about it. donate to the nnaf and alert politicians that they won't be enjoying your vote or your contributions if they don't support choice, imo

yeah! women need more information on their fetuses! let's find out a way to do personality tests on fetuses!

betcha didn't know this was a real baby inside you

This bill will backfire on the Florida government the first time news comes to light that a woman requested an abortion only after seeing the ultrasound...

"Well, I was going to have it, but it is just so damned ugly..."

The thing that incensed me the most is that supporters of the bill don't even understand it. My facebook pal is a sweet person, fresh out of high school, and she's seemingly educated on the topic.

Her argument is that the bill allows women to have all of the information they need to make an informed decision. She claimed that ultrasounds are always done before abortions, and that the clinic pays for them, and that some clinics refuse to let the patient see them, and this law is going to make it easier for people to get this information.

How this friend of mine didn't make said statement and realize that this practice by clinics, should it truthfully happen, is a VIOLATION OF HIPAA LAWS and NOT THE WAY THINGS CURRENTLY WORK is beyond me.

This is forcing people to undergo a medical procedure they don't want in order to have the medical procedure they do want. It's barbaric is what it is, and there's an irony in how the very conservatives who argued that the health care bill would deprive you of the right to choose which treatment you want are happy to legislate required medical procedures.

It is extremely depressing how little nominally pro-choice politicians are willing to stake on this - these laws are quietly being passed around the country, the national party couldn't really care.

that is so fucked up it almost seems kinda funny

Truthbomb. In fact I didn't realize other states had gone this route prior to it hitting my state, because it never got the coverage that the abortion issue 'as a whole' got.

At the end of the day, I'm disgusted that pro-lifers still have an image of pro-choicers as people who dance around the forest smearing goat blood on their faces, singing Barry McGuire songs and throwing fetuses into the campfire.

Guess I'll have to stop doing that then ;_;

the powerful ultrasound lobby in this country will stop at nothing!

Another thing I hate is how the rape clause will impact sexually battered women. The bill as written allows a woman to opt out of the requirement by providing "proof of rape" (I really hope newspapers more sensitively word that in future articles, as it made my stomach turn when I read that). Now obviously, I would want those who were raped excluded.

But requiring them to submit proof of rape will force them to revisit traumatic moments in their life. In addition, how would documentation work? Police/doctor reports? One problem -- how many rapes go unreported DAILY? It's sad, but it is true, and also understandable given the stigma that has unfortunately manifested with it.

So, if a rape were unreported, and the victim washed away the evidence immediately after (which happens frequently) and time passed, how would the victim provide proof? They'd have to go through with the ultrasound.

Granted, it is preferable than what Oklahoma did before it was struck down, which is allow no exclusion, but it's stupid either way.

I also hate that unlike the awful anti-flag burning law, there's no real way to effectively protest this if it is signed into law, short of intentionally getting pregnant, then performing your own abortion.

Wonderfully, I am sure that in some places 'rape' will mean 'rape conviction' or good-as in the eyes of a woman under this kind of pressure.

About a week after ultrasound inventor neighbour died, and after a bunch of obits were in the paper, there was a secondary stream of coverage where church ladies were blogging about the miracle of life that ultrasound allows us to see, in that really cloying MAYBE YOU MISSED THE POINT way that they have. Getting so angry about this.

I'm unfamiliar with most of HIPAA's rules, so can someone (Cattle Grind maybe) explain which ones are germane here?

HIPAA contains a lot of vague details, but Title II deals with Protected Health Information (PHI) and requires that the covered entity (ie, the health plan, provider, etc.) turn over the PHI to the patient within 30 days upon request. There is no provision allowing the withholding of information from the patient.

PHI is very vaguely defined, but most definitions encompass that it includes a patient's entire medical record. In addition to that, informational self-determination means the record belongs to the patient.

Btw, thanks for asking that Alfred because it just reminded me to post it on the friend's Facebook page after she claimed earlier that "patients don't currently have the right to see their ultrasound, and this new law allows them to."

This is fucked up. I'm hoping Christ vetoes it.
What is the "reasoning" behind this? Are they attempting to make any medical case or is it genuinely just presented as the head-fuck it seems to be?

*awesome* freudian slip

my lame attempt at zinging pro-lifers after reading the first sentence in this thread ;__;

Cattle Grind, as a guy who actually lives in Florida, are you gonna contact Crist about this? You'd better!

hah sorry xpost

This didn't even make the Miami local news tonight.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/01/1608972/florida-legislative-scorecard.html

ABORTION -- PASSED -- Most women seeking an abortion must pay for and receive an ultrasound, and have the doctor describe it. The measure exempts women who have been victims of rape or domestic abuse. The bill includes another measure that bans any government-funded health care plan from paying for any abortions. (HB 1143)

here's the thing itself

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=841564.DOCX&DocumentType=Amendments&BillNumber=1143&Session=2010

having worked in this field, i believe that an ultrasound is actually crucial before an abortion to rule out tubal pregnancy for safety reasons - especially with non-surgical abortion procedures.

a woman should not have to LOOK at it or talk about it, but it is the safe thing to do.

aaand here are the vote totals

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/floorvote.aspx?VoteId=11395&BillId=43887&SessionIndex=-1&SessionId=64&BillText=&BillNumber=1143&BillSponsorIndex=0&BillListIndex=0&BillStatuteText=&BillTypeIndex=0&BillReferredIndex=0&HouseChamber=H&BillSearchIndex=0

we'd need to do some research to see how close to party line this is.

but i bet there are a few dems voting yes and 0 GOPers voting no

Abbott, I probably will.

There must be a bunch of doctors who are up in arms about having to do something that will undermine their relationship with their patients.

We should force Republicans to submit to a CAT scan prior to voting....

http://capitalsoup.com/2010/04/29/florida-house-democratic-caucus-members-demand-withdrawal-of-objectionable-11th-hour-ploy-%E2%80%A8to-harm-a-woman%E2%80%99s-right-to-choose/

2. The bill goes beyond the federal “Stupak agreement” to prohibit the coverage of abortion even if private funds are used when a business or group gets a tax credit for providing the health insurance. Currently, and increasingly, most women get health insurance from employers who receive tax credits for providing the insurance, so this could, effectively, end coverage for women in Florida.

Thanks Bart Stupak, Ben Nelson, and everybody who argued that letting those guys have their way in order to get the health care bill passed wouldn't really be much of a practical big deal.

We should force Republicans to submit to a CAT scan prior to voting....

^ cosign

I think they should be forced to something that's equally psychologically and physically invasive, like a urethral sounding.

(I don't actually think that.)

Turn your head and pull the lever!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20100503_16_A1_OKLAHO270166

Bl. Collar, Groom lake Area 51 (9 hours ago)
Quit worrying about women's vagina and work on JOBS,like in Energy Independence.

Quit worrying about women's vagina and work on JOBS

^^ god if only I would ever heed this advice I would be so much more accomplished