being estranged from family members, exes, etc., c/d?

So, a rational reaction to unsolvable problems or immature grudge-holding?

Is a willingness to forgive others (whether they care or not) a sign of emotional maturity, or martyrdom? Are there acceptable or unacceptable reasons for an estrangement? Do you think less of people with estrangements (perhaps barring extraordinary circumstances)?

Not trying to dredge up unhappy memories here, just curious what people think.

I've endlessly debated this one w/ myself.

Accept with serenity the things you can't change.

I've only known cases of estrangement that resulted from some sort of physical or mental abuse, which I think is perfectly justified, no questions asked or trying to sort things out.

no questions asked or trying to sort things out.

Well, obviously mental/emotional abuse is something that is more likely to recur over a long period of time and probably people try to sort things out before cutting ties all together.

My mother is estranged from her entire family to the point where she hasn't seen/spoken to them in decades and I've never met a single relative on her side. It is sort of weird tbh but I suppose she has her reasons. I often wish I had a bigger family and have wondered what they're like but if they're shitty people then I suppose it's not worth it and perhaps am better off not knowing them.

"So, a rational reaction to unsolvable problems or immature grudge-holding?"

Yes, or somewhere in between or a mixture. It very much depends on why and how.

"Is a willingness to forgive others (whether they care or not) a sign of emotional maturity, or martyrdom?"

That would depend on what forgiveness means, I guess. The way I use the word, forgiving someone who has done wrong has to do with an absence of your desire to punish or defeat, and not at all with the idea of giving someone another chance. If you think to forgive is to forget what you know about a person's behavioral patterns, then you don't really come here for the fishing, as the bear says in the joke.

"Are there acceptable or unacceptable reasons for an estrangement?"

Yes.

"Do you think less of people with estrangements (perhaps barring extraordinary circumstances)?"

Hell, I am one. I would think less of myself if I allowed that pack of animals to mess up the healthy relationships I do have.

Haven't seen or spoken to my brother in 13 years. Every so often I think about just knocking on his front door some time, but then I'd have to confront his wife (who doesn't like me or anyone else in my family) and then keep the whole thing a secret from my sister.

I'm not holding a grudge, but have to deal with people who still are. Haven't really found a position other than just being stuck.

I'll never understand marrying someone who doesn't like your family.

I have been estranged from my father and his entire side of my family for a little over 20 years, save one cousin of whom I am very fond (and who feels similarly about that side of the family). I am at peace with the situation, and I think my reasons are just. Pretty much what TWUn said: "I would think less of myself if I allowed that pack of animals to mess up the healthy relationships I do have."

As for whether there are good or bad reasons for estrangement, for the most part I try not to judge. Admitting that you don't speak to an immediate family member is a big personal disclosure, and if for some reason this does come up in casual conversation, I intentionally don't get too deeply into my reasons because I don't like putting my business out on the street like that. So to that extent, when I learn that somebody else is estranged from a family member for reasons that seem trivial to me, I assume that there is something else going on that the person doesn't care to share.

For example, I always find financial issues to be a strange reason to cut off ties with a close family member. But then again, sometimes money issues (I'm thinking specifically of last will and testament situations) turn people into horrible beasts and maybe when someone finds out that a beloved sister can become an cruel, avaricious monster over, like, a tarnished old tea set, it feels uncomfortable to continue to be close to and vulnerable around that person. Plus I think sometimes the financial situation is a catalyst for larger problems, and the money becomes more symbolic.

Oh and as for being estranged from exes, why the hell not? I mean, if that person is on your immediate circle of friends or (god help you) a coworker and you have to see that person on the regular, sure, try to come to a place of understanding and whatever level of friendship you can handle. That's just being a mature/professional adult. But aside from the rare situation where the person is truly a good friend and romantic relationship ended amicably, what is the point of maintaining contact with an ex, especially if the relationship ended on bad terms?

Okay one more, to answer all of the questions. I obviously don't think less of people with estrangements. Boundaries are vitally necessary for healthy family relationships, and sometimes the only acceptable boundary is a no contact at all.

I think familial it would be more difficult to cut them off, just because of the blood connection, legal kinship, etc. As for exes, time you may waste in an unharmonious relationship is potentially far more meaningful time you could be spending with someone else.

coming from a family that was never close at all, i've never bought into the whole 'blood is thicker than water' bullshit. i'm estranged from most of my extended family on my mum's side of the family, and i haven't spoken to my older brother in about 7 years (apart from one time, when i was trapped, bc some big mouth in my family had told him i would be at my parents').

basically, my brother is a complete and total asshole who i can't stand. he has two young daughters, so i've had to sacrifice any relationship with them in order to not have to see him. but tbh it's totally worth it, he's that terrible.

My mother and sister do not speak to my cousin and badmouth everything about her; now that my cousin is expecting her first child she's made no plans to tell the rest of my family. I feel my cousin has good reasons for not talking to either, since they became inappropriately bossy after her parents died and all but accused her husband of marrying K for her money. I think they are jealous of the money and annoyed that it buys my cousin the ability to ignore them, but I am sick of being accused of disloyalty for maintaining a relationship with my cousin - I'm expected to take sides. I haven't, but if I tell them their disagreement isn't my battle and point out to my mother how much she likes being bossed around and emotionally blackmailed herself, it would not go down well.

tbh i find it way stranger to find out ppl haven't become estranged from family members/exes/whoever who are bringing bad shit into their lives.

^^^ yes. I understand that family relationships are messy and difficult, but there are a couple of people I know who would be so much happier if they cut ties with a specific relative and it is a little heart breaking that they won't or can't do it.

this is the biggest dud of all time imo, but not always avoidable

^^^ yes, I agree with Jenny, just1n3 and s1ocki

It just drives me nuts because I'm the only one everybody speaks to and I've become a receptacle for some truly toxic rumours and assertions over the years, mostly emanating from my mom re. anyone in our family she's ever argued with.

i found out i had an uncle living in the town next to mine with his wife and 2 kids (last i know he had 2 at least). i'd only met them when i was a kid and we were out west on a trip. i guess he moved out here 15-20 years ago and my dad never said shit because they had a falling out some years ago.

my mom told me it had something to do with my uncle being rabidly anti-american and my dad doing alot of business down there. i'd thought about getting in touch with him, but meh.

pretty classic if it's necessary, ime. only times i feel bad about it are when being guilted by others, who usually have no firsthand knowledge of the situation.

more power to people who are able to extricate themselves from shitty family situations cleanly imo. i am lucky enough to not have conflict w/ my fam but i know people who are still locked in awful relationships with blood relatives and i wish they could just chuck em

Yeah, a pretty high percentage of people I've known and have been close to have had bad dads that they were estranged from or otherwise not at all close to. I think we've all shared a common mindset that blood doesn't mean a thing on its own.

Basically, if it's a situation that makes life a bigger pain in the ass than is at all necessary, estrange away.

I don't think this is ever classic, even when it's necessary (and it's often necessary).

The type of shit that makes it necessary to remove an immediate member of your family from your life is never 'classic'.

Accept with serenity the things you can't change.

^^^wisdome

but is that in a 'put up with people' kind of way or is it 'accept you can't put up with people' kinda way

Both, depending on the parent. I don't put up with shit, but I know family commit sins a couple of steps beyond the venal that I'll forgive as long as I call them on it.

fuckit yeah i'm down with acceptance either way

I am in the early stages of this with a family member right now. It is really fucking hard and I get guilt from the rest of my family, but I just can't continue to involve myself in a situation that results in anger, stress, sadness, and hurt every time it's revisited. I had to tell myself that I've done a really good job of weeding jerks out of my life in recent years and I should not accept that kind of behavior from someone just because we share some genes.

I think this is my family's main way of dealing with each other. I mean, my mom and her siblings/parents, and my dad and his siblings. I have had friends who, I've seen years of them trying to reconcile things with their family, and it never works, so estrangement is their final & ultimately functional, useful, healthy plan. My family doesn't seem to do it this way. They'll be getting along grandly for years and then my uncle does something relatively minor that my dad doesn't like, and next thing you know he is out of our life for six years. "I'm never talking to him again!"

I don't know the real story behind things, and it could be a lot darker than it seems on the surface, but on the surface it all seems like kids giving each other "the silent treatment." My mom had always told me that my grandpa (her dad, who was divorced from my grandma) had died "just before" I was born. My dad's father died when my father was eight, and so, lil' Abbott was always sad about having no grandpas. Then when I was 19, I found out that my grandpa actually died when I was 13. I could have had so many years of having a grandpa! I never asked about it, as I'd always assumed there was a really good reason for it – sane, and so dark/sad/fucked up as to not discuss it. But I was talking to my dad, who was in this especially candid mood, and I asked him why they estranged my grandpa. "Well, he was just calling too much, and getting on our nerves. He wanted to spend an hour or more every day on the phone." And my mom confirmed this was true. I don't know if this is a cover-up story or not, but I *do* know my parents are really petty and small-minded. But so petty as to deprive all their kids of having a grandpa?

This is I was really surprised my parents didn't estrange me when I left the Mormon Church. That's a not uncommon practice when kids leave the church (of course it depends on the family). Maybe it was bcz I waited 'til after high school – my sister left at age 16, and they kicked her out of the house and refused to talk to her for three or so years. I don't think I'll ever understand my parents or their families.

that is completely heartbreaking.

holy shit - they still talk to you after that?! we basically had to take in one of my sister's friends for a bit because she left the church and everyone connected to the church/her family turned their backs on her.

xpost

My head is kinda spinning there, Abbott. Yeesh!

I can't call them estranged because one would have to have been truly close to them to start with, but there's a swathe of folks on my mom's side of the family that may as well not exist. But I seem to be one generation removed from it all and what little I do know of them now is perfunctory, to the point where I can't say I miss them as noted. The last time I saw one uncle was entirely by random on TV back in 1987 or so when he was interviewed about a SoCal brush fire (he's worked as a ranger in the Inland Empire for most of his adult life, apparently has done very well for himself).

we were estranged from my father's family for basically my whole childhood, and that resulted in the family connections I do have being very important to me, which makes it really hard when you're faced with an estranging situation.

I just saw an aunt & uncle at my sister's wedding, after 15 years of them being estranged from us – he had four kids, and they both looked so frail, so different from the motorbike-loving fun young couple I knew when I was 11. It was nice being able to see them again, as he was one of my favorite uncles, but so weird & sad to think that time was just erased from history.

may i ask why you're facing this situation?

xpost

i gather she's tiptoeing around that

It's pretty complicated and not something I want to go into in detail on the nets.

ya fair 'nuff. figured it was worth an ask.

It's cool, I mean obv I am posting on the internets, etc.

My father was abusive and basically ruined any relationship we had, so I don't really talk to him anymore. This seems to be fairly common with my generation, sadly.

These kind of things are a major reason why I never ask my patients questions about their families--I've run into too many of them who have Dark Secrets That Must Never Be Revealed.

Abbot, that is a lousy situation and is a good example of an estrangement situation that i can't really get behind. I hadn't even though of parents estranging their kids for shit like leaving church or being gay. I was thinking of it in terms of cutting ties with abusive family members. Cutting ties with a family member bc of religion or sexual orientation is bullshit and its own kind of abuse, IMHO.

Just came to this thread after reading this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/11/mariella-frostrup-estranged-mother-gay-out-depression

Some interesting comments, sounds like this kind of thing is perhaps more common than I'd thought. Mind you, I'm pretty sure I have an uncle who I've never met and my family never ever talk about. I don't think he even came to my grandad's funeral.

My parents and I get on swimmingly, so much so in recent years that as friends marry and move away I'll genuinely enjoy driving to their place for drinks and dinner. The subject of my sexual orientation is forbidden, though -- an arrangement I reluctantly accepted over two years ago. At present it's best to wait for the right moment to discuss it.

for varied and complicated reasons i havent spoken with my father in 5 or 6 years & i have no regrets about this

My dad's whole side of the family is like a weird, malformed branch of my family tree that I'm barely aware of. My grandma (his mom) just died a few weeks ago, and her funeral was a really strange experience. My dad wasn't estranged from her, but might as well have been, as we'd only seen her maybe once a year for as long as I could remember. And we hadn't been exposed to anyone in the extended family for a long time. It was a little disorienting to realize that I was in a room full of people who I was related to but didn't know at all. But a little bit of exposure to my super-weird cousin and some of the other instances of dissociative affectless on display gave me a clue as to why we hadn't been exposed to those folks much/at all. But I really don't understand the root of why that had happened, and the void that is my relationship with my dad doesn't suggest that any information is forthcoming. Luckily, my mom's end is much warmer and more open. But, yeah: that familial history combined with growing up a military brat has gone a long way towards informing my perspective on estrangement as more a passive adjustment to circumstance rather than an active slamming of doors in the face of the past.

yeah i'm also estranged from my biological father, firstly it was his choice but then it was mine. the last time i saw him was just over 2 years ago, after not hearing a word from him for almost 10 years: he turned up at my place of work, and seemed to think that it was totally appropriate. no idea how he even found out where i worked.

which reminds me that i'm also estranged from his parents, who i didn't meet until i was 15. i liked them a lot, but wasn't interested in meeting my biological father (complicated story)... and then there was this huge set up where i was basically emotionally blackmailed into meeting him (alone, without my mum or stepdad or any kind of support), and afterwards when it hit me what had happened i was so infuriated i didn't speak to them for several years (and then when i did, a similar situation arose again, so i haven't spoken to them since).

some of the other instances of dissociative affectless on display

I don't know that this sounds terribly out of place at a funeral (no offense).

my grandma passed last spring, so we went out west and saw family i had not seen in a long while. weird shit starts seeping out pretty quickly. esp when we all had drinks afterwards at her fav pub.

one cousin wouldn't even show his face the next day when we scattered the ashes. and he was right to be embarrassed.

regarding original question(s):
hmmm...

these can involve really difficult situations, obv.

forgiveness is always good, and i think that it's true that it is mostly for the benefit of the person doing the forgiving. of course, forgiving someone doesn't necessitate having to interact with them, particularly if there were abusive situations in the past. also, it doesn't really work to "force" forgiveness. takes time...

I had a whole post but then I thought, fuck it, why see on a screen what a crappy fucked up sad situation I was/am in. fuck it. It ain't fucking interesting anyway.

just realize, ALL families are fucked up, some more than others. mine sadly was pretty fucking out there in fuckedupness. I honestly wish it wasn't. but there you go, you don't pick your family. lol

So true nath, this has happened to varying degrees on various different branches of my family - my maternal grandmother was estranged for marrying a protestant, my aunt was estranged for being an alcoholic, she in turn estranged herself (several years after cleaning up) from my grandma for reasons unknown, my other aunt hates my mum for some reason and refuses to talk to her, my mum doesn't even know why. And I hardly talk to my dad.

But I hear so many similar (and of course far more upsetting) stories that seems kinda normal for families.

Basically, I'm only "estranged" from family because of distance and being terrible at calling people.

Well actually I have one cousin who is this bizarre mixture of total con-man and nexus of bizarre shit that I haven't seen in years, but I am pretty tight with the rest of his family and wouldn't actively shun him were he to pop up in my life (wouldn't let him move in, though).

tehresa, i'm really sorry that you're in this situation. fwiw, it gets easier, cutting someone out. i only had one family member who guilted me and she has basically stopped at this point. it has really made my life better! you sound very clearheaded and right-on in your reasoning.

My father, six years, not much of a story, no big blow-up or major evil, just a dude who was never very good at having us as kids, I guess.

Probably classic, tbh, but don't tell me that when I've had a few whiskeys.

I passed my mum in the street a few times in the two years before she died, with no other contact in that time. Not classic, looking back, but it was the culimination of 15 years of alcoholism, mental and physical abuse, involuntary commitments, court appearances, taking temporary care of younger siblings for weeks at a time and numerous other problems.

I'd like to think I'd deal differently with it looking back, but I'm not going to judge my past self too harshly, it had been a pretty rough decade leading up to the final estrangement.

dud. my brother and I didn't speak for several years as adults. after several years of escalating hostility and asshole behavior on his part. it was all about childhood resentment, in fact it all came to a head when my mom died - heartwarming post-funeral memory of my wife stepping between us seconds before he punched me. I felt sick and pissed-off about it the whole time, and somehow we kept it from our dad, but I attributed the problem to his wife's toxic influence. she openly disliked/disapproved of me.
turns out they were both miserable in the marriage. things between my brother and I thawed by the time they got divorced and then, lo and behold, in a couple years we went back to being buddies almost like we were around college-age. to my bro's credit he sort of therapized himself right after the divorce and seems to have exorcised his demons.

I'm not estranged from any family members, but I generally keep my brother and father at arm's length.

that's pretty close?

WmC is actually Reed Richards

Not really, at least from my viewpoint. We're all cheerful and polite to each other, but I'm not very, ah, emotionally accessible to them.

xpost lol

OP here. Kinda regret the glibness of the title, c/d is besides the point. Self-mocking detachment works for me when I think about my own estrangements, but seems dopey and mean here in context. Really stunned and saddened to learn that so many people (at least on ilx) have such heartbreaking stories.

Met my biological mother when I was 37, 13 years ago. We talked at least weekly, and met often enough for about 8 years, until I put it to her that she had to tell the rest of her family - particularly the sister she lives with - about my existence. She wouldn't so I broke off contact. It hurts a bit, and it hurts a bit for my daughter too, but after a lifetime of being a dirty little secret, I wasn't putting up with it any more. She had an excuse in Ireland, in 1960 - she doesn't anymore.

BTW, she instigated contact in the first place.

but there you go, you don't pick your family. lol

Man, I did not even get this comfort as a teenager bcz Mormons believe you all picked each other out to be family BFFs for all eternity, in the pre-existence, long before any of you were born. So the feeling you get is more one of "buyer's remorse" than anything. It's...weird.

xp that's...heartbreaking.

in the last two years i have willfully estranged myself from a bipolar family member with substance abuse problems and sexual proclivities that make me very uncomfortable. previously, we were very good buddies, and it's hard to keep from falling into habits and becoming buddy-like again. this family member gave me quite a bit of money in the past, and i'm trying not to let my guilt about accepting it drive me back into our crazy old relationship. this person has tried to contact me repeatedly to 'be friends' , but has not apologized for some really atrocious behavior that helped me decide to cut him out of my life.

i do miss this family member a lot, and i often feel sad that we cannot hang out any more. on my guiltier days, i feel like i'm being cruel by withholding affection from somebody who suffers from severe mental illness. we used to travel together and i miss that, especially, but i feel like i was miserable as much as not when i was in this person's company. still...

DUD

I have a feeling that my wife and I are entering into a phase of estrangement from some good friends of ours. Suffice it to say that the work/personal relationship has been inextricably intertwined, and my wife's leaving the company started by those good friends has created what appear to be some really ugly feelings and actions.

While it hurts me because I really love our friends, they are acting in a way that just undercuts all that our friendship has been built on. Very much a "don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out" type thing. So, my wife is having to bear the brunt of this snub because she feels put out of both a company and a relationship she has cultivated for a number of years. Me, I'm pissed off because she's really hurt.

To be quite honest, I don't see this resolving itself in a neat and tidy manner at all. We may have lost two good friends.