Defend the Indefensible: films in which gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women have nothing better to do than break uptight whiny squares out of their bubbles

Thread title cadged from my Maggie Gyllenhaal crush thread and inspired by this article on how Ramona Flowers got streamlined down to a "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" for the Scott Pilgrim film, otherwise a relatively faithful rendition of the comic and a very enjoyable picture.

Is there anything to this screenwriting trope beyond sexist bunkum, the product of lonely male screenwriters hoping they themselves will soon be visited by one of these fantasy people? I mean in real life, gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women are normally attracted to other gorgeous independent, "edgy" people... right? What use have they for internet dweebs such as I, or Will Ferrell in "Stranger Than Fiction," or whoever? Are there any movies where the dweeb gets the cool girl by actually changing on his own? (Scott Pilgrim, to be fair, strives for this but sort of fails because Cera acts so much the same throughout the character arc.)

Also, what does this formula look like with female protagonists, or is that just the "geeky girl gets makeover forced upon her" movie?

hot tub time machine was the latest. it may not be a classic example however

Sweet November.

Female protagonist = Heathers?

Something Wild was a good movie that I haven't seen since the 80s.

punch drunk love?

Such movies are sub-sub-fairy tales (real fairy tales embody a certain folk wisdom). They are mostly cackhanded variations on the fish-out-of-water theme with a side order of gender-swapped cinderella-goop.

The best that can be said for them is they entertain some people for 90 minutes, without leaving them better for the experience by so much as a nail paring of real thought.

OG mpdg info

http://www.avclub.com/articles/my-year-of-flops-case-file-1-elizabethtown-the-bat,15577/
http://www.avclub.com/articles/wild-things-16-films-featuring-manic-pixie-dream-g,2407/

I'm not really seeing your point there. Thread title sounds great to me. Will Ferrell is way out of Maggie Gyllenhaal's league so that example doesn't make sense. Cera was definitely miscast in Pilgrim, but she wasn't really all that so it kind of worked. I mean, this is definitely a hollywood thing, but not specifically an indie "edgy" thing, and your examples are pretty bad IMO.

yeah I always called this the Something Wild plot, but it's older than that. When I used to write fiction we talked about this plot construction constantly in a workshop for some reason one year.

also, I like all those movies in the linked article, mostly. I don't think Once really qualifies.

I just read those articles and now the concept of the MPDG makes sense to me. I still don't quite get the Pilgrim complaint though because the comic was just like that too. Maybe it just became more obvious onscreen?

I instantly thought of "Something Wild" when I saw this thread title; perfectly sums up this idea.

The annoying having it both ways part is that I feel like such plots often think they're blowin' yr mind by revealing that behind their surface opposition btwn the edgy and alluring girl and the square doofus guy is the essentially conservative idea that "edgy people really just wanna settle down and be square, deep inside, donchaknow" . . . so narratives like this bait you with rebel come-on but often have a picket-fence-or-bust comedown in store

^^^ agreed.

I think my real problem with this narrative is that it encourages the self-pitying loser male audience to continue being self-pitying losers, since clearly women find this very desirable and it's only a matter of time before one will come along to shake you out of your doldrums and rock your world, even as you, through your patient boringness, provide the stable, peaceful, decent antidote to all the rough times she's been through trying to play it tough in the wild and wooly world. I think my life might have gone somewhat differently if I hadn't been bombarded with this crap from, probably middle school onward I think.

re: Pilgrim and Flowers, comic vs movie - - I dunno. I agree with the author of the piece I linked in the OP that the comic, being six GNs long, give a lot more room for ALL the cast to have more plausible lives of their own. I mean, obviously, the story is about Scott Pilgrim coming of age, and his romantic worries along the way, so certainly he gets a lot more page time and we do understand many of the other characters only in relation to him - - - but at least Ramona's history seemed like the real history of a person, and her relationship with Scott could actually be seen, on-panel, as a relationship of some kind. The film just doesn't have time to get any of that across, plus it seems to take place in a MUCH shorter time frame. Therefore, Scott's "love" for her doesn't seem based on anything other than her "cool girl of my dreams" qualities.

this trope is only slightly better than the one put forth in crap movies like "Run, Fat Boy, Run" -- where your loser, irresponsible 'protagonist', who usually bails on commitment and is an all-around fuckup, loses his girl to someone who has the audacity to be a decent guy and be successful, and spends the entire movie battling to get her back, usually succeeding despite his douchery.

that av club article is funny, but throws in a few ringers. 'the apartment' doesn't fit this mold at all, and while 'bringing up baby' probably is a proto-MPDG movie, it works better because the heroine in that is a certifiable lunatic, not a dream girl.

i am still looking for a blue haired girl to shake me out of my loserdom fuck u all

thatll take 2 long, u shd meet a nice brunette and dye her hair while shes sleeping

"Risky Business?"

there's like some Ben Stiller movie like this right

Oh yeah, we had a whole thread about how much we hated it.

Reality Bites

Defend the Indefensible: "Reality Bites"

Titanic is one of very few Manic Pixie Dream Boy films.

Actually Reality Bites is a variant in which the uptight square is there to break the independent whiny slackers out of their funk.

Are there any movies where the dweeb gets the cool girl by actually changing on his own?

youth in revolt, but that's a horrible example, because the dweeb changes into a total asshole and gets the girl anyway, for no discernible reason. plus sucked so...

mean in real life, gorgeous, independent, "edgy" women are normally attracted to other gorgeous independent, "edgy" people... right?

i dunno. i often see attractive goth/industrial styled girls with nebbishy or otherwise wtf dudes. but maybe those aren't your manic pixie dream girls.

fuckin h8 movies like this

Is there anything to this screenwriting trope beyond sexist bunkum, the product of lonely male screenwriters hoping they themselves will soon be visited by one of these fantasy people?

Is it inherently sexist just because it's a male romantic fantasy? Doesn't the "bad boy" have anything better to do than romance the goody two shoes church girl? Of course the tropes of romantic stories are corny, but they can also reflect genuine experiences of love which are by their very nature colored by emotion and therefore fantastic and subjective. Maybe the "gorgeous, independent, edgy" woman is nothing of the sort, but only seems that way to the man in love.

^ otm

Kate Winslet deconstructs the MPDG: "Too many guys think I'm a concept, or I complete them, or I'm gonna make them alive. But I'm just a fucked-up girl who's lookin' for my own peace of mind; don't assign me yours."

One of the many things I love about that movie.

That seems to be everything that Casino is saying, really.

well, that's sort of kate winslet deconstructs the fantasy love object, really. not specific to manic pixies or even girls.

But she is a manic pixie! Also, a real mess.

Eternal Sunhine is deffo the best deconstruction of these relationships.

I'll bore the board with this again, but see (500) Days of a Summer for a scathing takedown of the douchebag guy.

And maybe The Pleasure of Being Robbed, which takes the MPDG construct to its logical conclusion. (hint hint: she's narcissistic, socially unaware, and annoying as fuck)

I realized that I called Kate Winslet herself a manic pixie, when of course I meant her character. But that made me think of actresses that cultivate that image 24/8. Cameron Diaz comes to mind.

Things you'd like to see Cameron Diaz do

(funniest thing on that thread imo: "Play the living shit out of a banjo.")

(hint hint: she's narcissistic, socially unaware, and annoying as fuck)

― a cankle of rads (Gukbe), Wednesday, September 8, 2010 5:58 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Sugges

really

i am glad to never have experienced this in my life

annoying people?

hating dream girls

Julie Andrews. Sound of Music is the worst! Mary Poppins is cool, though.
Also Angela Lansbury in Bedknobs & Broomsticks + Manchurian Candidate.

I like how two of those movies, it is literal manic pixies who work their magic on:
http://community.oclc.org/hecticpace/Mr%20Banks.jpg

I vote no on Julie Andrews. Not manic, not a pixie. The Sound of Music is unwatchable except for her. She's the sanest thing in it by far.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_uuU7VAlYCjc/TArvyg9epyI/AAAAAAAAADU/3ZquRePZp5I/s1600/Victor-Victoria-Julie-Andrews_l.jpg

But she's a flibbertygibbet!

Actually: "The Sound of Music is unwatchable except for her."

And I see your point, but the dynamic is totally different. She breaks the will of the stern defiant man by being whimsy-loving-yet-defiant. No one is whiny in that movie. At least, they're not supposed to be.

and while 'bringing up baby' probably is a proto-MPDG movie, it works better because the heroine in that is a certifiable lunatic, not a dream girl.

also, dharma and greg, so terrible but perfect in its drilled-down sitcom execution of this concept

Jenna Elfman actually has "elf" in her name, what more do you need

Is it inherently sexist just because it's a male romantic fantasy?

I dunno if it's "inherently sexist" but as a pattern of fiction across any number of movies, comics, TV shows etc., it has this kind of worrisome mythmaking quality, and if I have to back up my suggestion that it's sexist then I would say: the myth told is that women, however busy they may initially seem to be with their rock band, small business, novel, whatever, they will totally drop all that and devote themselves 24/7 to getting a guy to try bowling for the first time or whatever.

But I do think this probably is less about sexism than about contributing to distorted (male) nerd perceptions of how social interaction and dating "work," which is really where I come on board being annoyed.

That's part and parcel of the pixie archetype though, they liberate the hero, but always go too far into the realm of self-destruction. The hero "wins" by incorporating the "pixie within" etc, but usually ends up rejecting or being rejected by the actual pixie.

heath ledger in the batman

Interesting example is True Romance in which the hero, inspired by the pixie into a dangerous world of adventure is ultimately consumed by that world, leaving the pixie to take up the mantle of the hero alone.

The shift of POV over to the pixie symbolized by her wearing the hero's signature Elvis sunglasses. Do you see?

That's part and parcel of the pixie archetype though, they liberate the hero, but always go too far into the realm of self-destruction. The hero "wins" by incorporating the "pixie within" etc, but usually ends up rejecting or being rejected by the actual pixie.

― Ask The Answer Man (sexyDancer), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:53 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think that's necessarily true. A lot of these are rom-coms with a traditional happy-ever-after ending.

saving private ryan

― turds (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 8:47 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

drop dead fred with phoebe cates in the MPDG role instead of rik mayall would probably be much improved.

is 'jules and jim' sort of the anti-MPDG film? two happy non-uptight non-square guys living in their blissful bubble meet a gorgeous independent 'edgy' woman and it all ends in misery and suicide.

xp: might be the fault of screenwriters butthurt over Alvy not getting Annie Hall in the end.

oh yeah in sleepers, woody is the MPDG, and it has aged better than annie hall.

Peter Pan is a hard one to parse because not only does the manic pixie Peter invert the trope and help the freewheeling Wendy leave childhood and accept the uptight world of 'growing up', but Peter also has the ultimate MPDG of his own in Tinkerbell.

what do you think about the interpretation that it's actually captain hook that is the MPDG?

Nah, it's clearly the crocodile.

xp isn't that the plot of Hook?

which reminds me of the manic alien dream guy Mork

Satan as MPDG in the Garden of Eden?

Manic Pixie Demon Guy

Five Easy Pieces is kinda anti-MPDG. Quirky Karen Black unsuccessful at liberating uptight hero, gets dumped on whole film, abandoned at gas station as hero enters existential oblivion.

^^Not only that, uptight hero falls for and loses a woman more uptight than he.

He fails at being the pixie as well.
And the harsh father totem at the center of it all. Philip may be onto something with this Hook idea.

So in Pretty in Pink we have the paralyzed father at the center of the tale with pixies Ringwald and Cryer generally failing at liberation from uptight reality.

xxp Jesus as MPDG in the New Testament

Hamlet

Vertigo may be the MPDG cautionary tale.

Paralysis a big part of it too.

I thought dangerous dream girl was a whole separate thing

Manic Pixie as DDG's innocent face?

eddie furlong in T2 was oddly effeminate for this supposed macho leader dude -- this doesn't make sense until we realize he is the MPDG designed to get Ahnuld to stop being so stodgy and get in touch with his feelings.

ha!

"Lame father" archetype again with Reese spending his final minutes of screen time in T1 limping around.

is it reese or the terminator in T1 that's trying to break linda hamilton out of her square existence?

So in Pretty in Pink we have the paralyzed father at the center of the tale with pixies Ringwald and Cryer generally failing at liberation from uptight reality.

― Ask The Answer Man (sexyDancer), Wednesday, January 23, 2013 4:07 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ringwald's Hughes characters in general have too much of a tormented interior life to be MPDGs imo

angst is antithetical to the whole concept

kim novak is about as un-manic as dream girls get

well but she does have a frazzled, dim expression.

xp: Yeah, in Hughesverse, it's more Manic Nightmare.

The overlook hotel

in Breakfast Club isn't there a reverse MPDG happening? They normalize the goth with a makeover and now she's happy in a square bubbleverse with the diminutive jock.

Hughes is essentially conservative

With Judd Neslon providing "Hook" archetype, father issues, limp and all.

hahahaha some dude's DN is making it really hard for me to read this thread, constant double-takes. How impish! How quirky! Maybe he's...just the ILXor I never realized I was looking for.

^^Your Manic Pixie Dream Poster...

How about Fight Club?

Well, that's certainly some form of MPD...

heath ledger in the batman

― 乒乓, Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

under-appreciated

Melanie Griffith in Something Wild. I like this one a lot.

Discussed above, I see.

'Perks of Being a Wallflower' has the wondertwin power of both MPD Girl and Guy, w/ bonus points for Emma Watson actually wearing a pixie cut

How do Edward Cullen & Christian Grey fit into this, if at all?

In pieces, hopefully.

can i just say that i think louis ck and parker posey pretty successfully turned this trope on it's ear and made it into something at once fairly unlikely yet believable? + awesome? [SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER] i mean she's just giving the shlubby nice guy one last chance before.... i dunno, it all makes sense. for once. plus, not the ending to the arc i was expecting.

seeking a friend for the end of the world tho - i liked the movie fine, but steve caroll? really? WHY HIM?