france bans the burqa

yeah, so what do you think about this one? it's a tough call i think. a very delicate and uncomfortable weighing and balancing of perceived and real rights in conflict with one another...

Paris, France (CNN) -- The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women -- making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

The legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament in July and will go into effect next spring.

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Some 82 percent of people polled approved of a ban, while 17 percent disapproved. That was the widest support the Washington-based think tank found in any of the five countries it surveyed.

Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found.

A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil. Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."

The French Council of State has warned that the ban could be incompatible with international human rights laws and the country's own constitution. The council advises on laws, but the government is not required to follow its recommendations.

The ban pertains to the burqa, a full-body covering that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes. The hijab, which covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently are not banned by the law.

However, a 2004 law in France bans the wearing or displaying of overt religious symbols in schools -- including the wearing of headscarves by schoolgirls.

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that France has about 3.5 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.

France does not keep its own statistics on religious affiliation of the population, in keeping with its laws requiring the state to be strictly secular.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/14/france.burqa.ban/index.html?hpt=T1

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

Wagemann really gets around huh?

wrong and stupid

appalling how racist is France is, really

think it's pandering: only a very small number of women wear these unpleasant garments, but you can whip up a fuss about it to suit your own ends

appalling how racist is France is, really

― Dr. Lol Evans (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:57 PM (6 seconds ago) Bookmark

you have mainstream politicians saying the president is a mau-mau infiltrator!

and the whole arizona thing

Haha yeah not sure America's in much of a position to wag fingers at France.

I am not America fyi

America's racism also appalling btw

I thoroughly understand the French context but it's kind of a made-up problem and Shakey's right, it is at heart a racist wedge issue like the southern manhattan mosque polemic.

considering it gets voted through the same day as this, france is doing a lot of things wrong right now

Tbf, Alex, French and Americans can be racist in different ways, though sometimes it's the same.

liberty, equality and fraternity (unless you're a gypsy or a muslim in which case gtfo)

The Roma thing is all the more revolting because WWII isn't that distant a memory in Europe and Vichy was all too willing to go along with the Nazis. Yet, as always, once insecurity rises, you'll get people perfectly willing to jettison their values and the Roma don't exactly make themselves popular anywhere as far as I can tell.

liberty, equality and fraternity (unless you're a gypsy or a muslim in which case gtfo)

Yes, but France has been other things than a republic, Shakey.

I spend a lot of time in France, mostly in the Paris area, & in my recent year+ there never saw a woman in a burqa, and only saw women in niqabs a handful of times. One of those times was at Parc Disneyland, which surprised me initially but then helped me come to see why the ban is silly. I saw lots of women in hijabs and chadors of course.

maybe this moves us closer to a worldwide ban on white plastic sunglasses tho - look at the bigger picture, people

I can see the argument for banning burqas any where you need to show ID or when driving but vestimentary laws are awfully old fashioned, not to mention in some ways as authoritarian as the traditions they're trying to stem.

not really 'traditions' in this case, but yeah, probably counter-productive

Sure they're traditions! Why would they be so different in different Muslim countries?

I really have no problem with the hijab.

Reza Shah banned the chador in '36, btw. That turned out well.

Foolish and wrong-minded. Even if you thought it was going to "free" a very small number of women, first of all it's their choice isn't it? Second, even if some despicable man in their lives is making them wear it, it's not like a law will change his values, she just won't be allowed to go out. Oh yes, that's much better for her.

PS: I know you know it's not about the women anyway but just pretend for a sec, you guys.

Sure they're traditions!

in france? the burqa was pretty rare till like 10-20 years ago, and it's more of a white-convert thing -- i think i'm right in saying anyway

in england it was hella rare till the 2000s

Saw an article recently (Newsweek, I think?) speculating that the mass Roma deportation was an attempt by Sarkozy and company to shore up his miserable popularity ratings by veering hard to the right- apparently Le Pen and his merry band of shitheads are making gains, which is disturbing already without the party in power feeling like they should pay them attention.

the mass Roma deportation was an attempt by Sarkozy

I'll be curious to see how this actually pans out. Yes, it's raised his popularity level but how enduring will this pandering be?

I hate the things and am fine with them being banned. It's just so rude to go around with one's face covered, there's no need for it.

Last year my wife had to go to a citizenship class for immigrants to France (b/c we had long-term visas) & a main topic was that in France you cannot beat your wife. Evidently some of the men in the class tried to protest against this.

It was interesting for us to see first hand how France handles "integration" of foreigners, both by the officials and by individuals (including how foreigners integrate themselves)(hint: no one does very well on this score, compared to my experience in the USA (as the son of an immigrant as it happens))

As I pointed out above, the core of French identity is as tribal as it is republican and those who assimilate more easily, either because of religion or race, have had an easier time of it, though they've all gotten stick at some point or another.

France isn't really a nation at all; it's a bunch of tiny villages, & your membership in the nation boils down to belonging to the right villages.

What about mesh veils worn by brides/at funerals or halloween costumes? What does a 'ban' mean - just in public?

I hate the things and am fine with them being banned. It's just so rude to go around with one's face covered, there's no need for it.

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, September 14, 2010 5:49 PM (18 minutes ago)

joke post surely?

but yeah this clearly boils down to anti-islam more than anything, and it should be the choice of the women if they would like to wear it or not. imagine being a woman who's worn one all her adult life, and suddenly you can't wear it anymore? or in some cases, as laurel said, it just means you can't leave the house.

yeah that does seem like it may be the actual effect of this law. hope people do follow-up studies.

Wasn't there something recently in the news about people with their faces covered (with a burqa) getting on a plane without showing their faces and one man handing in several passports while the rest walked on board covered?
A few of the other passengers complained that they could have been anyone...

also the effect of arsehole husbands, to be fair

xpost

i dunno not_goodwin. that sounds insane and i doubt it would happen in the uk.

protecting women against potential coercion by introducing actual legal coercion is o_0

What about mesh veils worn by brides/at funerals or halloween costumes?

i believe there are several "exemptions" in the wording of the law so that just burqas are affected

Here you go, http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/veiled-women-boarding-plane-triggers-probe-20100803-113vz.html
It seems ridiculous that you can board a plane where you have to show your face with your passport without actually having to show your face?!?

Just seen a French journo crying at the prospect of future generations being scared of drawing gross sectarian cartoons. A chilling vision of the future

fucking france secular racist merde

Truly, fuck the French “centre”.

The executive head of Macron's LREM is sub-tweeting a leader of the French far-right to demand a Muslim woman is removed from an En Marche campaign poster because her head is covered. We've entered a realm far beyond even Houellebecq-ian dystopia https://t.co/ZsPWf4jRCc

— Mehreen (@MehreenKhn) May 10, 2021

Worse than a subtweet. It's a full-on approving retweet of the National Front

Aren't Houellebecq's dystopias all about damn bien pensant leftists abolishing themselves and surrendering to the dreaded muslim tide?

One of them was about that, but it turned out that the Muslim government was actually sort of preferable in a lot of ways

There's certainly a threat to democracy going on in France but it's not Sara Zemmahi

French: Muslim women are oppressed & not free to choose.
MW: I’m free to choose?
F: Oui.
MW: I choose this.
F: Non.
MW: But u said-
F: If it’s that, you aren’t choosing freely.
MW: How do you know when I am?
F: When you don’t choose it.
MW: I’m free when I don’t choose?
F: Oui.

— Hend Amry (@LibyaLiberty) December 5, 2021

In an interview on French TV, the minister suggested the poster had encouraged women to wear headscarves. She said this message jarred with the secular values of France, which had expressed its disapproval of the campaign.

more like le blancïcité

Isn't imposing a *freedom* mandate on female ethnic minorities rather more like that other f-word? Going a bit offtopic here there is a really good doc on Hubert Butler on netflix with some very otm quotes from his pioneering essay The Invaders Wore Slippers which was about domestic French fascism a full 20 years before The Sorrow and the Pity was released. Not that the UK is any better rn, stripping citizenship from masses of dual nationality citizens etc.. but French fascism seems like a very distinct strain quite different from the UK's.