Which wars were the "Good Wars"?

Just wonderin'

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/c/c6/Secret_Wars_2.jpg/350px-Secret_Wars_2.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/deathstar_jpg_w300h265.jpg

NONFICTION wars, you guys

sheesh

although I do believe the Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars(tm) and Star Wars(tm) will one day occur, or have already occurred, if there are in fact infinite parallel universes.

are you guys kidding? those were terrible wars!

ww2 is about it. i've taken tons of classes in ancient european history and really never find any of those wars entirely justified beyond kingdom vs kingdom bullshit. dunno much about azn history.

thread does not compute

BARBARY WARS

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/a/a2/Burning_of_the_uss_philadelphia.jpg

A quick google search reveals that Russell Madden, creator of the world famous website http://home.earthlink.net/~rdmadden/, believes that "The number of truly justified conflicts could probably be counted on one hand: the Revolutionary War, the War with the Barbary Pirates, the War of 1812, perhaps the Texas War for Independence."

"perhaps"

REMEMBER THE ALAMO

The Late-Night Wars

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/The_Simpsons_4F21.png

dangit, this thread is why we can't have nice things

for a war to be justified, it had to have been reasonably unavoidable. I'm not sure any war can pass that test.
the conan debacle especially does not pass.

I wouldn't define it as a "war," but intervening in the Balkans was a Good Thing.

xpost to Philip
Just playing devil's advocate, what would you say about U.S. entry into WWII? ie, a war that's already started. Was U.S. entry justified, given the circumstances?

I'd counter that a lot of countries/companies/people could have had the foresight to not prop up the bad guys prior to having to fight them.

I agree in alot of circumstances there's a point where not entering a war is worse, but there are many many points prior to that point.

xpost addressing OP

As opposed to "splendid little wars", I presume.

The Revolutionary War was a long slog, but pretty much necessary in the great scheme of things. It qualifies.

The War of 1812 was tarnished by a lot of intransigent jingoism on both sides. Avoiding it was the better option for both sides, but neither side took that option. Spawned the Alien and Sedition Act. Does not qualify.

The Mexican-American War. A fucking disgrace. Does not qualify.

The Civil War. On the Southern side this was only about petulance and greed, and the fear that they would lose control of their slaves if they lost control of the Supreme Court, and Senate. On the Northern side it was about not allowing a rival nation to form on its southern border, which could compete with it for western lands and resources. Slavery was the causus belli, but in the end analysis it was all about power. Because it did abolish slavery, it qualifies.

The Spanish-American War (and subsequent War of Phillipine Occupation). Another fucking disgrace. Does not qualify.

The Great War (alias WWI). Most gawdawful war of all time, I think. The war that brought us poison gas as a battlefield weapon, trench mouth and wards full of semi-catatonic victims of "battle fatigue". It never made any sense as a war, and brought the worst peace ever. Does not qualify.

WWII. The war that made our atrocities look tame, because their atrocities were so barbaric as to beggar words. Because it was a struggle for world dominion, and the enemy embraced every enormity they could think of, it is undeniably a Good Thing the Nazis and Japanese did not win. We did not exactly cover ourselves with glory in our means and methods for winning this one, either. It qualifies, but on a technicality.

Korean War, or The Continuation of WWII by Other Means. It all depends on how you view the Cold War and the Truman Doctrine. I would say, does not qualify.

Vietnam War. Superficially like Korea, but much,much less justifiable on any grounds whatsoever. A fucking disgrace. Does not qualify.

Gulf War, or Geopolitics Goes to War Over Oil. No heroes here. Does not qualify.

Afghanistan War, or The War That Gives Until It Hurts. Started well. Cannot possibly end well. Does not qualify.

Iraq War. A fucking disgrace. Does not qualify.

The War of 1812 was tarnished by a lot of intransigent jingoism on both sides. Avoiding it was the better option for both sides, but neither side took that option. Spawned the Alien and Sedition Act

No it didn't -- the Quasi War with France did.

Corrected. Thank you.

There are no 'Good Wars'. A justifiable war is not the same as a good one. Whether there is such a thing as a justifiable war is another question entirely.

xpost

great post Aimless. Wondering about this, though:

The Revolutionary War was a long slog, but pretty much necessary in the great scheme of things. It qualifies.

So, with centuries of hindsight, it qualifies. But at the time, say it's 1778 - is it a splendid lil' war? Because calling it a justified "good war" seems to be at odds with, say, Philip, who would argue that there were other options short of combat.

It's arguable whether WW2 was a "good war", from the British perspective at least. Britain declared war over Poland, but winning the war didn't save Poland. It's hard to imagine a worse outcome for Poland really - millions killed, capital city destroyed, fucked over by one totalitarian regime, and then by another. If Britain hadn't gone to war, or had sued for peace in 1940, the Soviet-Nazi war would have still happened, but a lot of people in the other theatres would be saved.

See Burke, Edmund.

other options short of combat

The crux of the matter was that the colonies had no means of exerting power over the British government to modify its policies, as summed up in the whole "no taxation without representation" argument. There was a modest fund of sympathy for the American colonies in british society, but not enough to alter the home government.

Because there was no formal mechanism in place, all the "other options" boiled down to propaganda, and petitions to the crown. Not exactly the position you want to stay in for long, especially if you think you can go straight to the goal and start your own nation.

i wouldn't have opposed an intervention into rwanda in 1994, i think. of course, we didn't intervene there, so go figure.

i mostly agree with aimless, with a slight dissent on the u.s. civil war. letting half the country fall into the hands of the slave power would have been a disaster for so many reasons: the obvious one that slavery would have certainly lasted beyond 1865, the horrible precedent of letting state governments decide to secede whenever they disapproved of the outcome of a presidential election, the fact that southern leaders were determined to take over the rest of the continent (and eventually what remained of the union), and the not-unimportant fact that quite a few southerners (a majority, according to many scholars) did not want to leave the union. it qualifies as a justified war if anything does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

This all kind of depends on perspective, dunnit? Is whether a war is "good" or not dependent on whether the side that started it had a good reason? In that case WWII, started by Hitler, would not qualify. But if a "good" war means that one side had a justifiable reason to fight, say if their country was invaded, then there have probably been a lot of "good" wars, even if the side in the right ended up losing. Was Vietnam a good war from the Vietnamese perspective? Probably not if you weren't a communist, but maybe so if you were a nationalist who wanted the French and the Americans out.

Well, that brings up an interesting point (which wars were justified and were lost), a question I was going to pose but stopped upon realizing that the answer is "every non-imperialist on the losing side of an imperialist conflict". But yeah, of course whether a war is "good" or "justified" is a very subjective thing, so I was hoping to get a bunch of ya'lls very subjective opinions!

war of 1812 was a pointless war if there ever was one.

i literally just finished 3 books on the subject!

certainly ww2.

Well, that brings up an interesting point (which wars were justified and were lost), a question I was going to pose but stopped upon realizing that the answer is "every war from the perspective of a non-imperialist on the losing side of an imperialist conflict".

Actually, just to check myself, is there a case when this isn't true?

WWI made a good president into a terrible one.