The academic middle class vs the commercial middle class in England

In England there were always two sharply opposed middle classes, the academic middle class and the commercial middle class. In the nineteenth century, the academic middle class won the battle for power and status. As a child of the academic middle class, I learned to look on the commercial middle class with loathing and contempt. Then came the triumph of Margaret Thatcher, which was also the revenge of the commercial middle class. The academics lost their power and prestige and the business people took over. The academics never forgave Thatcher and have been gloomy ever since.

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what do yall think of this? it seems beside the point to say it's simplistic because it's obviously spoken in very broad terms, but there's something in it, right?

In the nineteenth century, the academic middle class won the battle for power and status.

rubbish

people like (just throwing these out there) joseph chamberlain were not 'academic'

difficult to see where he got the idea that the victorian mercantile class was on the back foot

however, there was a time in the early-mid 20th century where the 'amc' were relatively influential (via him being old & nostalgic)

there was a time in the early-mid 20th century where the 'amc' were relatively influential

it's too broad a generalization to work

but ok, yes, from the late 19th century you had an important university-educated administrative class, in the civil service, and all their rivals in related fields -- everyone from the webbs to today's think-tanks.

this is still an important group of people. maybe it was more powerful when we had a more interventionist state. but no one group holds ultimate power.

think yr reading it in too strong terms. he's just 'throwing shit out there'. nothing too concrete, he's a physicist after all.

yeah well that's scientists all over

He's getting at something that exists but he's phrased it very poorly and I don't think that "academic middle class" really encompasses what he's talking about.

Pompous Berks vs. Grocers

isn't "academic middle class" just a less, uh, politicized way of saying "intellectual bourgeoisie"?

"Dyson has lived in Princeton, New Jersey, for over fifty years."

^^^^

Only someone who'd spent their entire life at Winchester, Cambridge, Cornell and Princeton could ascribe that much influence to academics.

isn't "academic middle class" just a less, uh, politicized way of saying "intellectual bourgeoisie"?

― 嬰ハ長調 (c sharp major), Monday, November 8, 2010 4:00 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

not really

'middle class' is a hopeless term, but 'bourgeoisie' isn't great either

'intellectual' may as well mean 'academic' here

there is an academic bloc in english life, but it's always been amusedly tolerated or ignored afaict, rather than one of two poles between which history swings

there are 'academic' types who have had irl power, like keynes

but also a lot of academic types who, quite fortunately, have not, like [insert random person i don't like: terry eagleton]

mind you, keynes was hardly 'middle-class' as we'd understand it now

the sentence before that quote is relevant: "My view of the prevalence of doom-and-gloom in Cambridge is that it is a result of the English class system."

his basic point, that cambridge academics are miserable because they have no influence seems plausible. his next step, that they ever had much power as a bloc (i.e. not just individuals like keynes), seems like a stretch.

i think the real reason (cambridge) academics are so miserable is because they know (cambridge) undergraduates have more influence over english life than they do, even before they've left university (via facebook/twitter).

his basic point, that cambridge academics are miserable because they have no influence seems plausible.

Shoulda gone to Oxford

his next step, that they ever had much power as a bloc (i.e. not just individuals like keynes), seems like a stretch.

well... like i say, the civil service, which is a power in the land, certainly used to be almost exclusively recruited from the universities (when there were only like eight universities). that isn't bloc power, perhaps, but it's not nothing either.

Hasn't been a Cambridge educated PM since Baldwin

Not sure 'power' is right. Perhaps the level of esteem they're held in?

well, that's a question of optics. esteemed by whom?

their influence is different from the kind of power exerted by fund managers or whoever.

well, if his definition of the academic middle class is "technocrats with degrees" then i guess they were at their peak pre- and post-war.

but like everyone says, the 19th century thing seems weird. unless he's talking about the post facto esteem in which british 19th century science is held (but most of that except the zoology/biology was done or motivated by industry).

possible question of 'esteem inflation'. in the 19th century about 0.5% of the population went to university. it was still pretty exclusive when what's-his-nuts left for new jersey.

xp

it was still pretty exclusive when what's-his-nuts left for new jersey.

Goin' right back there

that's a good point. maybe there's no academic class because everyone has a degree now. xp

his next step, that they ever had much power as a bloc (i.e. not just individuals like keynes), seems like a stretch.

But some bits of Oxford at least – All Souls def, Balliol maybe? – always believe they have/had influence (the - ahem - ear of power), as an institution as much as individuals (tho' of course with small number of college fellows hard to separate the two, All Souls can think of itself 'being' Isaiah Berlin). Whether this was true or whether everyone was just happy to let eg AL Rowse think he was helping settle the Rhodesian situation, idk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Jowett

he means guys like this, who influenced the whole make-up of the foreign office (i think)

150 years ago academics were more useful for ideas, whereas now hard science dominates the academy because it drives production of actual things that make money for advanced economies - biotech, computers, weapons, etc.

think this guy is really just upset that after all he's done, his name will live on as a vaccuum cleaner. 1-0 to the commercial middle class.

haha - that makes me unaccountably happy

Hasn't been a Cambridge educated PM since Baldwin

...whose family seat is in Oxford (I assume he got it on retirement but I am not really trying to assign any meaning to this fact, just musing)

Anyway I don't know about real academics, but if this helps describe the utter disdain my middle-class teacher family had for estate agents and accountants when I was a kid in the 80s, sign me up for the newsletter - but I guess the "vocational" middle class's scorn for money-counters has always existed and is a different thing?

(looks at Jowett wikipedia link, notes that I've been pronouncing the street in Oxford named after him wrong)

that's a good point. maybe there's no academic class because everyone has a degree now. xp

― caek, Monday, 8 November 2010 16:25 (6 hours ago) Bookmark

ah yes, but there's still a small elite who got a first, went to a prestigious redbrick, maybe did a masters or doctorate, etc, etc... it's not like the 45% or whatever of school leavers who go to uni now could be classed as "academics".

http://assets.theatlantic.com/static/coma/images/issues/201012/dyson-wide.jpg

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2010/12/the-danger-of-cosmic-genius/8306/

highly illogical captain

In the range of his genius, Freeman Dyson is heir to Einstein

is this true caek?

he has the weirdest o_O face ever

well, he certainly didn't have einstein's impact on physics, but he's probably the closest physics has to a public intellectual (as distinct from a celebrity or popularizer) these days, if that's what they are getting at.

feynman did physics that was a bigger deal and was more famous outside physics but he's way dead. witten is the greatest living physicist but he is an old school nerd and not box office.

the only other physicist worth reading on non-physics things imo is steve weinberg.

this person was on newsnight tonight talking about TECH, computerization and deskilling, how wonderful the maths/science oriented curriculum in singapore is etc, he seemed salubrious enough for a cameron acoylte, anyway it seems apposite that someone offering their truth to power on these subjects has no scientific education

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/rohan-silva/45/91/810

there's no c.p. snow thread