Athletes with great talent but questionable mental fitness.

Especially interested in choking/meltdown pathologies as there are a lot of mental athletes.

http://www.coretennis.net/ct/1/image/Players/MJPage/WTA/S/Fiche/Safina_Dinara_Fiche.jpg
"Oh do you mean like my brother?"

Hey you said it, Dinara.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/delonte_west_video.jpg

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/08/joey-barton-fabio-capello-andy-carroll

Andy Carroll gets the Joey Barton seal of approval.

"Every other national team picks (players) because they are the best in their position. That's what you have to do if you want to go and win a World Cup. The frustrating thing for me is we pick the good guys, the guys who won't cause any problems. Hopefully England will stop worrying about what the sponsors are going to say and that 'goody two-shoes' is the right image for Team England.

Yeah you never get any negative press about the behaviour of John Terry or Ashley Cole or Steven Gerrard or Wayne Rooney or Peter Crouch.

― the reasonable one (onimo), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:25 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the frustrating thing for me is that football players are all dickheads

― Eto'o ))) (ken c), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:27 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Might as well let Carroll get his one mediocre England performance in early before he settles into a ten-year stint as the new Carlton Cole.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:30 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

If I were Capello I'd be more worried about the 5.30am visit to a McDonalds than anything else.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:36 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if you want to win football matches then sometimes you have to pick players who don't always toe the line.

and instead toe their ex-girlfriends.

― Upt0eleven, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:36 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

pretty sure france didnt drop cantona because of his looks

― cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:36 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

france are a shining example of how to pick your players tbf

― Eto'o ))) (ken c), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:38 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah what have they ever won?

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:43 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

france are a shining example of how to pick your players

― cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:44 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well, pre-domenech anyway

― cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:44 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

oh yeah actually totally forgot france won the world cup and that since cantona retired

― Eto'o ))) (ken c), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:52 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Are there any top-class Spanish players who are too mental to get in the squad?

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:55 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ginola, tho, ken

― cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 November 2010 11:57 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this morning, premiership thread. coincidence? yes.

Jimmy Piersall.

Mark "The Bird" Fidrych.

He would crouch down on the pitcher's mound and fix cleat marks, what became known as "manicuring the mound", talk to himself, talk to the ball, aim the ball like a dart, strut around the mound after every out, and throw back balls that "had hits in them," insisting they be removed from the game.

the man dont give a fuck

rip enke would have taken lehmann's place as germany's crazy #1 ended up taking lehmann's place as germany's #1.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eosGkndaIFM/R7A9m3IIZcI/AAAAAAAACD4/oz8O21LQTVE/s400/Cassano.jpg

gonna get fired by the end of the month ;_;

oops, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eosGkndaIFM/R7A9m3IIZcI/AAAAAAAACD4/oz8O21LQTVE/s400/Cassano.jpg

VERA ZVONAREVA

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090908/GAL-09Sep08-2576/media/PHO-09Sep08-176869.jpg

After blowing six match points in the second set of a fourth round match against Flavia Pennetta, No. 7 seed Vera Zvonareva did the following things:

-- Cried on the court during the second set tiebreak.
-- Hysterically cried in the locker room in between the second and third sets.
-- Ripped off a portion of the medical tape that was wrapped around her thighs.
-- Complained to the chair umpire that the remaining tape left around her thighs prevented her from playing.
-- Screamed an obscenity at the chair umpire when she wouldn't give her a medical timeout to fix said medical tape.
-- Loudly yelled a compound word/profanity after hitting an unforced error.
-- Continued to rip the tape off her leg.
-- Smashed her racquet into a post.
-- Spent the final changeover sitting in her chair with a white towel draped over her head.
-- Lost the third set 6-0.

Jimmy Piersall.

― clemenza, Tuesday, November 9, 2010 9:00 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Lock thread. That guy was clinically ill. I remember one time as a kid and he did the color for the White Sox games. One game he got tossed out for arguing with an ump. He was a friggin announcer. That has to be unprecedented.

i was going to offer a general 'lol women's tennis', but to be fair in most cases it's probably more a matter of lacking the cold steely blankness of a top athlete and instead having an ordinary person head which in super-high-pressure situations goes "OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD."

does ronnie o' count? guy always seems to be on the verge of showing he's crackers and then reigns it back in for a couple months...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj4es8Lfjx8

Zvonareva held it together in the U.S. Open final this year. Her mental composure I mean, not her tennis game. And barely.

i was going to offer a general 'lol women's tennis'

i was going to start, but then i realised i wouldn't know where to end. jana novotna, amélie mauresmo and elena dementieva are the retired queens of choking though, between them they showed us that there are more ways to choke than anyone had previously thought and that there is no lead you can give them that they can be trusted to close out.

I'm sure on the men's side we can agree on Marat as the paragon, though.

maradona, gazza

George Connelly

Barrett Robbins, Raiders center. Undiagnosed bipolar disorder that began to come to light the day of the Raiders/Bucs Superbowl in 02, when he went missing: didn't show up for practice, had to start a backup for the game & everything. When they finally found him & brought him back to the hotel, he sat down next to his wife on the couch. Superbowl was on tv & he says, "Who's playing?" He had no idea he was supposed to be out there. Bananas.

I'm sure on the men's side we can agree on Marat as the paragon, though.

or richard gasquet, though i would probably just call him a pathetic, wussy loser rather than a choker per se

Barrett Robbins, Raiders center. Undiagnosed bipolar disorder that began to come to light the day of the Raiders/Bucs Superbowl in 02, when he went missing: didn't show up for practice, had to start a backup for the game & everything. When they finally found him & brought him back to the hotel, he sat down next to his wife on the couch. Superbowl was on tv & he says, "Who's playing?" He had no idea he was supposed to be out there. Bananas.

― That is the stench of tyranny (VegemiteGrrrl), Tuesday, November 9, 2010 9:50 AM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Stanley Wilson for the Bengals the night before the Super Bowl vs. the 49ers (the second one). Never tried coke in his life, for some reason headed to Liberty City that night and went on a total binge and missed the game.

reminds me: ronaldo totes deserves to be here. in fact, he's prob the #1 example of a career (maybe the word I'm looking for is 'legacy' - maradona's problems came to light post-building his legacy?) ruined by being fucking bananas.

Mike Tyson definitely had some issues, especially in the anger-management department. But I thought he came off as quite thoughtful and self-reflexive in the excellent James Toback documentary.

I loved Fidrych...I'm pretty sure it was all theatre; I don't remember ever reading anything about actual mental fitness. His arm, different story.

is ronaldo really bananas though? always thought of him more as just dumb and lazy

Mike Tyson definitely had some issues, especially in the anger-management department. But I thought he came off as quite thoughtful and self-reflexive in the excellent James Toback documentary.

Yeah he was just one of those misunderstood ear-chewing rapists.

I think there's a difference between hugely talented athletes whose questionable mental fitness prevents them from winning and/or sends their career into a downward spiral (Gazza, sundry tennis players), and those who win despite being clearly mental (Maradona, Tyson).

i was going to offer a general 'lol women's tennis', but to be fair in most cases it's probably more a matter of lacking the cold steely blankness of a top athlete and instead having an ordinary person head which in super-high-pressure situations goes "OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD." - this is really interesting to me, interested in whether Lex agrees!

those who win despite being clearly mental

Is there any obvious football equivalent to Kevin Garnett - a guy who wins aided by, rather than despite, being clearly mental? Can't think of one offhand.

tim howard

^^he looks like he swears and barks like any normal goalie though tbf

"Some people believe Tourette's helps us see what's going to happen before it really does," he said. "I do think it has enabled me to be more alert and to react quickly. Maybe it's helped me learn how to concentrate more on small tasks. It's always going to be with me, so I might as well use it to my benefit."

Yeah he was just one of those misunderstood ear-chewing rapists.

Well...I don't think I said he was misunderstood; I said he was self-relexive--i.e., he seems to be grappling with these issues.

Is there any obvious football equivalent to Kevin Garnett - a guy who wins aided by, rather than despite, being clearly mental? Can't think of one offhand.

― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, November 9, 2010 10:40 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yes, in American football. Probably 80-90% of them.

this is really interesting to me, interested in whether Lex agrees!

in what sense? i kind of agree! but i think the beauty of sports is that each top athlete has their own personal narrative, and the way in which they deal with how their emotions and the pressure interact is so deeply individual (as matt alludes to).

serena williams - choked a lot at the start of her career, had to overcome mental weakness to become a champ. regularly hams it up and is generally dramatic with her emotions on court, but mostly this just enables her to play better
justine henin - choked a lot at the start of her career, had to overcome mental weakness to become a champ. rarely shows overt emotion on court and keeps everything tightly buttoned up, and it's this control that is key to how well she plays
vera zvonareva - headcase, choker, prone to all sorts of emotional breakdowns - but this doesn't seem to have a correlation to her results. sometimes, as in the pennetta match references above, it makes her lose. sometimes she manages to fight through and win. there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast rule.

and there are different forms of choking too...that which is related to the scoreline (ie players most prone to failing to serve out a match or blowing a 5-1 lead, etc) or related to the occasion (eg amélie mauresmo freezing up in front of her home crowd at roland garros EVERY YEAR OF HER CAREER).

theres a good malcolm gladwell article on the difference between choking and panicking

Lex I guess what I am trying to get at is: do you think Marat S. is 'a choke artist' in that the effect of big points on his game is greater than it would be for an average actual human person, or that their effect is a fairly *normal* loss of composure that is absent from his peers because they are incredible, unusual people?

I'm not Lex but my guess to the answer based on the example is the former.

Rube Waddell, HOF pitcher from the early 20th century. I believe Bill James, as delicately as possible, said he wasn't just this eccentric guy who chased trains; he was mentally challenged, or whatever the correct term is today.

Wikipedia: "Recent commentators (such as Bill James) have suggested that Waddell may have suffered from a developmental disability, mental retardation, autism, or attention deficit disorder (ADD). Essentially, none of these mental issues was either known of or properly diagnosed at the time."

actually, thinking about it i DON'T agree with it - the entire process of choking and what constitutes "mental weakness" is so personal, and i think the ability to be calm in those situations isn't a trait that's peculiar to sports - we all know people who are calm under pressure (whether in everyday situations or in their chosen career) and people who are not.

i guess the difference with athletes is that if they're not naturally calm under pressure (and if that hinders their performance), they're expected to work on it, whereas in most of our careers i think we could get away with flapping around - it's not imperative to have that steely focus. so it turns into a narrative of redemption (that we as fans are drawn into) - the most clear-cut example of which is jana novotna finally overcoming her demons and winning wimbledon in 1998 (what's forgotten: she still choked big time in that final and was lucky she was playing nathalie tauziat, not steffi graf).

what irks about the current proponents of women's tennis is that none of them seem interested or capable in overcoming their mental weakness - or, while it's always good to have one novotna/safin/dementieva type around per generation (the public love to pity them), when 99% of the tour is like that, it just makes you roll your eyes a bit.

also! being calm can hinder an athletic career. those players choke and panic because they care too much - but ultimately that's what drives them. i'm sure in every sport there's your capable, reliable journeyman who rarely melts down but who accepts his/her middle-ranked lot in life a bit too easily and calmly, and perhaps doesn't get every last bit of talent out of their career as they perhaps could.

(i would actually put safin in the "too calm" category - he didn't panic or melt down, but he was too resigned to being an unpredictable player, too accepting of bad days and unwilling to fight through them, never seemed bothered enough about wasting his talent by moping around)

also! being calm can hinder an athletic career. those players choke and panic because they care too much - but ultimately that's what drives them. i'm sure in every sport there's your capable, reliable journeyman who rarely melts down but who accepts his/her middle-ranked lot in life a bit too easily and calmly, and perhaps doesn't get every last bit of talent out of their career as they perhaps could.

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Tuesday, November 9, 2010 8:28 AM (3 minutes ago)

Cadel Evans anyone?

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/463091/kobe-artest.jpg

Stanley Wilson for the Bengals the night before the Super Bowl vs. the 49ers (the second one). Never tried coke in his life...

He was suspended the '85 and '87 seasons for coke. Super Bowl was his third strike.

Is there any obvious football equivalent to Kevin Garnett - a guy who wins aided by, rather than despite, being clearly mental? Can't think of one offhand.

― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, 9 November 2010 15:40 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

mutu, cassano, balotelli, all goalkeepers, a bunch of centre halves... and thats just the first off the top of my head.

He was suspended the '85 and '87 seasons for coke. Super Bowl was his third strike.

― Floyd Smoot Hawley Tariff (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, November 9, 2010 11:47 AM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I stand corrected!

Rodman's weirdness always seemed kind of forced and put-on.

definitely think he's an interesting guy but don't buy him as having "questionable mental fitness"

Yeah, Dan Patrick talked about this last week; that when he first started Rodman was bounding up and down the court like a little kid, totally in the game...and then it was like he decided he didn't want to be 'one of the crowd' anymore and started doing all this weird stuff.

There's a difference between attention-seeking and being mentally ill...though lol it's not always apparent to the naked eye, as Rodman bears out

I can certainly name a lot of baseball GMs with questionable mental fitness. I guess that's not the same thing.

definitely think he's an interesting guy but don't buy him as having "questionable mental fitness"

he nearly committed suicide in the parking lot of the old Pistons stadium

didn't Rodman attempt suicide at one point? xpost!

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Rodman in dreadlocks 2/23/13
Athletes with great talent but questionable mental fitness.
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Our original:
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ugh

The Brian Spencer story is famous in Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Spencer#Death

I don't know, though, if Spencer's issues were all as a result of his various addictions or if they were prelude to them. The incident with his father happened as early in his career as possible.

Do we often get Dmca takedowns, stet?

Not that frequently -- have had a few this past year, maybe? Often they're spurious and we're just caught in a malfunctioning robot's dragnet.

There's also, in baseball, "Steve Blass Disease," which is a sort of mental block that prevents a player from accurately executing routine throws or pitches. It may not rank as deeply troubling on the "mental fitness" scale, but it tends to end careers in short order. Other athletes linked to the disease are listed in this entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Blass_disease