The tragic ineptitude of the English male (attn: Emma?)

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The tragic ineptitude of the English male: "After going out with roughly a dozen single men in London, I have come to the conclusion that the modern English male knows little to nothing about courtship, and what he does know frightens him."

A very very irritating piece -- Emma's done better in three-sentence posts -- but I'm curious: what do you think of the underlying stereotypes and cliches here?

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"For a North American male, romancing English girls is like shooting fish in a barrel" -- please confirm so that I can make travel reservations far enough in advance.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The whole thing is piffle. If this is the gal the Guardian has been talaking about, then tons of people would love to get off with her. If she thinks she's too good for them, then OK - probably she is. But she shouldn't then complain that they turned her down. It's looking- glass-land.

― the pinefox, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Her first mistake: Dating Old Etonians

Her second mistake: Assuming that they are at all representative of British males.

― Richard Jones, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Rod Liddle was quite funny about this, for a change. Page down past the stuff on racism here

― N., Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

unfortunately i think you've just missed emma for the weekend nab. no doubt she will have many a pearl of wisdom on monday though ;)

― CarsmileSteve, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I've just skim read the original piece and it does seem quite preposterous and I concur with what Richard said above.

That's not to say I'm not tragically inept, of course. But NOT LIKE THAT.

― N., Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah I think there's a kernel of truth about ineptness, but not being able to waltz (or not being up for footing the bill) seems off the money to me. Having said that, what would I know about it?

― Tim, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'm less interested in the writer herself -- obviously the article is a dumb hack-job and an easy target -- than in the generalization as a whole. It's curious, because those of us Americans who are less brash or perhaps more shy often tend toward Anglophilia, out of this mental picture of English culture as being a bit more like "us" -- more sedate, less boorish, more accomodating to our ways of socializing? -- then American culture. Thus we come across such stereotypes and think: "Hmmm, I'd be par for the course over there." This impression has been largely confirmed by American males I've known who have spent time in the UK -- people who are a bit too subdued, formal, or "nice" to pull in the States find their chances pretty much evening out as soon as they step out of Heathrow.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

tim can you waltz? you have never done so while i was watching

― mark s, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Think on...

― Tim, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Someone text her "M-A 2 ILE THRED" then: clearly she'll want to resolve this important issue before a weekend of gadding about with inept English boys.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Try this...

― Vera Duckworth, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Haha! I was waiting for this to come up! I nearly linked to it the other day.

The author seems to think that every English man went to public school and is a borderline drunk. And I thought we established, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT DATING IS!

― jel --, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah, I remember reading this the other day (Monday, that was it) and finding it irritating. Partly because, like most American 'women,' Leah wants to have her cake and eat it - equal pay in the workplace and the guy pays for everything on a date - and partly because of her notion that all Englishmen are old Etonians.

― Tim Bateman, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tim, she's Canadian. Clearly an American girl would be much more resourceful about getting laid.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Also why is "women" in scare quotes? Is Leah's problem the massive bulge in her skirt, or are you just being dumb?

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

All I can see is Tim waltzing. It's a haunting image.

― Ally C, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

it is all i have evah seen

except when i'm actually watching him irl obv, when he stops

― mark s, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh dear. I relate to the MEN in this article far more than its author. One possibility that she doesn't consider is that traditional 'courtship' might be ridiculous, boring, dishonest, confusing and nothing to do with love or even romance, and that's why English men (and me) don't have much truck with it.

However, I still feel bound to take issue with Tim (quel surprise) over this: equal pay in the workplace and the guy pays for everything on a date. Even though I find wanting a man to pay for everything a bit suspect, I WOULD NEVER assert that if you do, you are somehow not entitled to expect equal pay at work. The two issues are very different - one to do with private behaviours and customs, one to do with non-discriminatory legislation.

― Archel, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

lazy, lazy stuff that is all too common nowdays. she is just reading from magazines ('new lads' balh blah) and books when she should be going out w/ a construction worker.

― Julio Desouza, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Mr Bateman has done that scare quotes thing with 'women' at least once before. I asked him why he did it and he gave no answer. Maybe he doesn't like women very much. The evidence certainly points in that direction.

― RickyT, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This Telegraph response piece, from one of her public school fag dates, is sufficiently petty to amuse.

― Underlying Stereotype, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well Ricky maybe he doesn't like them because he doesn't believe in them: these so-called "women" are just a myth perpetuated by the PC liberal-media elite etc. etc.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Although I think he and Archel can both be sort of right on the monetary issue: as we phase in the opportunity for women to support themselves independently, we need to phase out some of these courtship routines based on the whole resources-for-amorous-fealty contract. But we also need to phase out a whole lot of unequal gender expecations placed on women -- visually, behaviorally, whatever -- so in the meantime you're just improvising a contract that suits both partners, no? Archel's right to differentiate the workplace, which is a legal space in which that sort of negotiation isn't a possibility.

The paying thing is odd: sometimes it feels confident and generous ("look look I can give someone something good") and sometimes it feels demeaning ("do I really have to pay to have someone spend time with me?"). Even that first impulse worries me, because it feels vaguely empowering, and surely part of that empowerment is specifically related to dominance. But these aren't big worries: most of the time I'm happy to pay, because I honestly do appreciate someone spending time with anyone as boring as me.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hahaha by "boring" I mean "a good listener."

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'm giving up on trying to defend my old pal Tim B.

The piece was bollocks, and fits with a strange doublethink attitude from the US (I know she is Canadian, but her attitude matches). English men, they think, are upper class twits who would make the most rub lovers possible. But when I was in America, I was more in demand sexually in a fortnight than in almost any year at home. Maybe it is that the classy image sort of sticks, and you seem romantic and even a touch exotic, but if you can avoid resembling Prince Charles (though I have the ears) they find you sexy with it and excuse you from the bad parts of the stereotype?

Why have I never moved to America?

― Martin Skidmore, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Is the conclusion we're reaching here something like "you are usually more attractive in the western nations you're not actually from?" Due to, umm, obviously having some slightly-exotic panache to your courtship that's bog-standard unworkable back home? Okay then.

But forget the Canadian skank: when I check this thread on Monday I want to see what Real Live British Women think about the general potential for ineptitude among their men. If I make reservations before the 7th I get an advance fare reduction.

― nabisco, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

HAHAHAHAHAHA B-b-b-but ISN'T Anne Coultier's big argument that AMERICAN MEN are TRAGICLY INEPT LIMP-WRISTED PANSY ASS LIBERALS!

― Alex in SF, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The author seems to think that every English man went to public school and is a borderline drunk.

Hey! Some are, you know!

This kind of story comes up every couple of years and can be discounted for the simple reason that most people (Momus to thread!) date individuals rather than representatives of a nation/culture/race.

There is also though a counter-myth which endures among some English people that if an English bloke goes to the States his exotic gentility (and 'sexy accent') will have a magnetic effect on the ladies. I assume this is equally rub.

― Tom, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You haven't seen what happens when the latest Anglo-rock sensation visits a Britpop club in LA, my friend.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tom, you're wrong, actually. Especially scottish accents - they're adorable. ; )

― lyra in seattle, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You could load up Scotland on a couple of planes, send them over in a few weeks they'd all be parents on account of their accents. Of course all thr people in Nova Soctia would be miffed but no one ever cares.

― Mr Noodles, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

''There is also though a counter-myth which endures among some English people that if an English bloke goes to the States his exotic gentility (and 'sexy accent') will have a magnetic effect on the ladies. I assume this is equally rub.''

been in canada for nearly 3 months and only one 'I like your accent' type comment from a girl here. Tom is right (unfortunately):(

― Julio Desouza, Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"off-putting predilection for ‘naughty’ banalities in the bedroom."

AHAHAHA! I don't care if it's true! It's so funny to mock you guys!

― Dan I., Friday, 2 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You should've faked a scottish accent.

― lyra in seattle, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But Tom, that is exactly what I did experience. You've seen me, and you'll believe that I don't normally get loads of people after me, but I did in America.

― Martin Skidmore, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't think there's anything unusual about the idea that in another western country things like your accent, turn of phrase, whatever can make you more attractive. I mean they become something distinct. It's not a cast iron rule like "oh go to America and you'll have women all over you" but I think it's true to a point. Your nationality becomes an issue, and a quality when you're abroad, rightly or wrongly. It's not just in America by any means either.

― Ronan, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So that's why you went back to Ireland: the huge horde of Ronan-crazy women got too much for you.

― RickyT, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ha yeah I spent like 6 weeks looking for them in London, they must be all on holiday or something, I have no idea! Still now I have a new discman I'm obviously going to pull every night......

― Ronan, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I should have said your nationality can be a bad thing aswell obviously.

― Ronan, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ronan is OTM, of course, though there are exceptions - I don't know how well German males do in some other countries, for instance. Also, my first trip to America was two weeks away from my wife, the longest we'd been apart in ages, so I was certainly apparently single a much, much higher proportion of the time, and I was meeting loads of new people who did not, unlike my friends in England, have cause to think of me as attached. This period became fixed in my mind as meaning 'Brits are irresistible to Americans', but that may have been partly because I always thought of myself as deeply unattractive. Since the end of two decades plus of monogamy, I have actually found lots of people are sexually interested in me, so that lack of known attachment may have been a bigger factor than I had ever imagined.

― Martin Skidmore, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

anyway, she said that mediaeval britons invented courtly love and IT IS A LIE! the french invented it!

― katie, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

mediaeval britons = normans = french!

― jel --, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

though I did ignore the Saxons, Celts, Vikings and everyone else!

― jel --, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

My friend Rafael was for a month in the US and didint picked up any gurls, but he said one told him he was hot. Though he doesnt pick up gurls here too

― Chupa-Cabras, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This is reminding me of when I was in Ethiopia and a doorman at the Hilton spent fifteen minutes trying to pimp out my brother: "You're American? You went to Harvard? You're a good looking guy, too, you should find a wife while you're over here. Three weeks if plenty of time: I know some girls, I have family, too ... you could marry any girl you wanted around here!"

In western terms, though, yeah: I have this deep intuitive conviction that I would do much much better in the UK and western Europe.

― nabisco, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I lived in Canada for a year and found my Belfast accent to be a drawback: I was utterly incomprehensible to 75% of the people I met.

Being asked to say "roundabout" (or whatever) by every new person you met never stopped being amusing, either.

― clive, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"For a North American male romancing English girls is like shooting fish in a barrel"

The reverse is also true.

― Matt, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

By which I obviously mean "For a South American female repulsing non- english males is like rescuing land mammals from wide open spaces" natch.

― Matt, Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Skipping 73 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Lyra, really I was just making the tired old British -> American dig about how Scotland isn't part of England.

― N., Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Graham that's why I used the word almost. Though it was a flippant point anyway.

I'm not sure if Anna is overly advocating the shy mumble technique by the way, I know women for whom it is a complete turn-off.

― Pete, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Anna: 'sometimes a shy embaressed mumble can make you go weak at the knees.'

There's hope for me yet...

― Tim Bateman, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Pete: 'I'm not sure if Anna is overly advocating the shy mumble technique by the way, I know women for whom it is a complete turn- off. '

Wonderful (sarcastically in barackets) (copyright P. G. Wodehouse).

― Tim Bateman, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's context bound I admit.

― Anna, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Stop messing with my head the lot of you. I've only just woken up.

― Confused, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I always hated the "ladies it ain't easy being independent" line because I thought it suggested that as a woman you had to make a conscious decision to be independent and it was something you actually did. Like as if she was warning other ladies "hey this independence stuff, it's not for all of us". Em....I started a thread ages ago but I forget if I said this part or not.

― Ronan, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The world's greatest chat up line:
"hhmmmmfmff....kjmmmmummbblleeee...hhmmmm" (glance away)

― jel --, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The VERY IDEA that I would find mumbling, bumbling ineptitude attractive is EXACTLY what is wrong with (English) men. Grr. Pull yourselves together!

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's horses for courses.

― N., Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well yeah. But women who want muttering bumbling ineptitude will just have to accept that they will have NO MAMMOTH for their dinner.

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What's to stop the mumbler being a wicked cool mammoth huntah?

― RickyT, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well if they don't have the guts to (gasp!) speak to a girl then why should I think they'll have the guts to slay a mammoth?

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Cos you don't have to speak to the mammoth, you just fucking stick your spear/sword/knife in it or hit it with a rock. Duh!

― Ronan, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Also you can bring your mates to help you.

― Ronan, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

but didn't mammoth hunting dudes just hit their women over their head?

― jel --, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I am starting to wish I had never brought up the whole mammoth thing. It has turned against me like an ungrateful child.

To summarise: MEN - BE LESS CRAP. Thank you.

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I fully intend to get even more crap.

― Tom, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I would share Tom's sentiments but I have hit crap bottom. I can go no further

― RickyT, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'll give it a go -- but it's hard to break these habits you know?

― Alan Trewartha, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

MEN - BE LESS CRAP = X?

― jel --, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

''To summarise: MEN - BE LESS CRAP. Thank you.''

a reason has just been given to be even more crap. Thank you.

― Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Just when I was thinking I was being a bit harsh I got this:

Hi, I was looking for girls wearing pigtails. If you have any pictures, I'll look I won't make fun of anything. Yes, I'm a adult. Thanks, John

So maybe I am not being harsh.

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

''a reason has just been given to be even more crap. Thank you.''

Blimey Julio do you really think that's possible?

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Hi, I was looking for girls wearing pigtails. If you have any pictures, I'll look I won't make fun of anything. Yes, I'm a adult. Thanks, John

Blimey the benchmark is 'raised' once again! Must try harder. Maybe a gymslip fetish could be cultivated.

― Tom, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I fear that Emma may be right about MEN being CRAP, but since some of us are men, clearly we are the least qualified to offer solutions? Perhaps a special B*ngb*s episode featuring gymslips will work as a peace offering?

― Dave M., Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

''Blimey Julio do you really think that's possible?''

I must try Emma. This is my new purpose in life...

― Julio Desouza, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Start with punctuation as 'I must try Emma' is a very different thing from 'I must try, Emma' and something tells me the former fills you with horror and vomity feelings.

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Emma is like marmite - you either love her or hate her...

― Pete, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

something tells me the former fills you with horror and vomity feelings

but is this not akin to romantic feeling from Julio, a la Stan from South Park?
*cue phonograph playing 'i've got a crush on you, sweetie pie'*

― Dave M., Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I am like marmite - you can spread me on toast and keep me in a jar.

NB future googlers - this is a lie.

― Emma, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Too late.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Do you have any pictures of you lying? My parents found my old stash.

― Crepe, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Emma, do you turn white when whipped?

― Archel, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Does Marmite? Wow.

― Anna, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Apparently (can't find thread now though). Although I have yet to test the theory, I ALMOST convinced a whole pub that it was for the same reasons that beer has a head. Almost.

― Archel, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ah, yeast.

(Dan Perry, mind out of gutter now young man.)

― Anna, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You're ruining his fun! And mine too.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Gwyne th Paltrow says British men (don't?) beat around the bush.

― N., Thursday, 15 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I KNEW I should have looked back in this thread after the mini-outage last week! N. has trumped my joke about the headline, alas.

― Dan Perry, Thursday, 15 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

My entire life has been devoted to trumping your jokes, Dan.

― N., Thursday, 15 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

''Start with punctuation as 'I must try Emma' is a very different thing from 'I must try, Emma' and something tells me the former fills you with horror and vomity feelings.''

great...Emma is my english teacher now. you ppl are so bloody clever, you get what I'm thinking and feeling from a punctuation mark.

''but is this not akin to romantic feeling from Julio, a la Stan from South Park? *cue phonograph playing 'i've got a crush on you, sweetie pie'* ''

Dave M you're evil, just pure evil...

― Julio Desouza, Thursday, 15 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i'm not one to stand in the way of TRUE LOVE, julio. face your fears - i know you can do it.

― Dave M., Thursday, 15 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...

Dating, Brit-Style: Drink, Snog, Mate, Repeat

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:24 (twenty years ago) link

That link just sends me to the front page.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:28 (twenty years ago) link

Try this? New York Diary

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:35 (twenty years ago) link

After the first paragraph, I started imagining it was written by Colette!

― Barima (Barima), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:38 (twenty years ago) link

It's written by Mr. Gawker.

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:39 (twenty years ago) link

When you’re British," she said, "you generally play on the fact you’re British a little bit.

Bwahahahahaha! I'd never even think of it...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:53 (twenty years ago) link

Oh wow reading back, this whole thread is hilarious.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 May 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link

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