Definition of trying too hard, or necessary bulwark?
From a story in today's LA Times:
That means no English Trojan horses: The weekend must be fin de semaine (end of the week); there are no cookies in your computer, only temoins de connections (connection witnesses); and if you write a blog, download a podcast or indulge in online chat, you'll have to ecrire un bloc-notes, obtain a telechargement pour baladeur or engager un dialogue en ligue....It is a tortuous process: Suggestions must be approved by the Academie Francaise and the Delegation Generale a la Langue Francaise et aux Langues de France (French Language and Languages of France General Delegation) before being rubber-stamped by the Commission Generale de Terminologie et de Neologie (General Commission on Terminology and Neologisms) and published in the government's Official Journal.In the last 15 years, the terminology commission — a 17-member Economics Ministry body that meets once a month to coin new economic, scientific, legal and financial words — has proposed more than 1,000 French-language equivalents, among them jeunes pousses (young shoots) for start-up companies and accueil dore (golden welcome) for golden handshake.Incidentally, members failed to agree on whether a golden parachute was a parachute dore (golden parachute) or a parachute en or (parachute of gold).Although some of the linguistic dictates of the Academie Francaise have been adopted, including courriel for "e-mail" and eblabla for "chat," , Anglicisms such as "weekend," "Post-it" and "airbags" have thus far proved ineradicable.
...
It is a tortuous process: Suggestions must be approved by the Academie Francaise and the Delegation Generale a la Langue Francaise et aux Langues de France (French Language and Languages of France General Delegation) before being rubber-stamped by the Commission Generale de Terminologie et de Neologie (General Commission on Terminology and Neologisms) and published in the government's Official Journal.
In the last 15 years, the terminology commission — a 17-member Economics Ministry body that meets once a month to coin new economic, scientific, legal and financial words — has proposed more than 1,000 French-language equivalents, among them jeunes pousses (young shoots) for start-up companies and accueil dore (golden welcome) for golden handshake.
Incidentally, members failed to agree on whether a golden parachute was a parachute dore (golden parachute) or a parachute en or (parachute of gold).
Although some of the linguistic dictates of the Academie Francaise have been adopted, including courriel for "e-mail" and eblabla for "chat," , Anglicisms such as "weekend," "Post-it" and "airbags" have thus far proved ineradicable.
I am all down with 'eblabla' though.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 15:19 (fourteen years ago)
eblabla!!
― lextasy refix (lex pretend), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:22 (fourteen years ago)
The reality is also that there are so many anglicisms in popular media, often with such an evolutionary life of their own that I don't even know what they really mean, that this bulwark is like Canute commanding the tide to stop. I'm all for a great colloquy on language and I can understand how annoying it is when there are stupid fads that adopt foreign words willy-nilly when there are already venerable ones in the language but surely the better approach than a gate-keeping academy is to encourage people to know more words, more languages, and be more versatile.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:28 (fourteen years ago)
Oh academiepaws. I've always kind of quietly admired their stubborn ways. It works both ways: in my Greek class this week I learned the word ραντεβού (rendezvous, meeting).
― Madchen, Friday, 4 February 2011 15:32 (fourteen years ago)
They meet in a lovely building; there are grape vines in the inner courtyard, and there's a statue of Descartes inside. And the seats are wonderfully comfortable, so maybe that's why the immortels want to stay there so long.
Of course even some dissertations in France are written in English now, so I don't know that attempts at purification of the language matter much.
― Euler, Friday, 4 February 2011 15:33 (fourteen years ago)
Si je suis élu, je serai immortel; si je suis battu, je n'en mourrai pas. - André Roussin
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:37 (fourteen years ago)
Eblablabla would have been even better.
― Idgi Pop (KMS), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:44 (fourteen years ago)
de Toqueville's épée d'académicien:
http://www.tocqueville.culture.fr/images/oeuvre/epee_2.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:54 (fourteen years ago)
Cocteau's:
http://www.linternaute.com/femmes/luxe/0704-cartier/images/5.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:55 (fourteen years ago)
this is the first time I've ever heard of "eblabla" and I speak way more french than english with my friends and in my workplace. I'm in Quebec though and we more often say "fin de semaine" than "weekend".
"couriel" seems to have been grudgingly accepted, though a lot of people just say "mail".
― peter in montreal, Friday, 4 February 2011 15:57 (fourteen years ago)
http://runesoup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/bob-loblaw1.jpg
― bien-penisant vibrator (Phil D.), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:58 (fourteen years ago)
George Dumézil's:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoS6IIUxNa1AAnvCjzbkF/SIG=12ocv0mc1/EXP=1296863752/**http%3a//www.futura-sciences.com/uploads/RTEmagicC_couteau_036.jpg.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:58 (fourteen years ago)
Les bloc-notes d'eblabla.
I've said "couriel" to actual French people and been met with blank stares until I qualify that with "email", so.
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:59 (fourteen years ago)
J. Kovalevsky's:
http://www.christophecurien.com/sculptures_medailles/images/Epee3.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 15:59 (fourteen years ago)
"Courriel" is standard with my French colleagues now.
― Euler, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:00 (fourteen years ago)
trop longue, je ne pas lu
― Overend Wattstax (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:01 (fourteen years ago)
So what happens if you start dropping Anglo-bombs in France now? I assume they send you to the other side of the country to fill out a phonebooks' worth of administrative documentation?
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:02 (fourteen years ago)
The real reason they might just want to give up on some of this is they're often just translating an English expression ('young shoots', 'golden parachute', etc...) into French. What's the point? There are plenty of foreign words in the French vocabulary, why is it now that they're suddenly worried?
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:07 (fourteen years ago)
Haha, some of what's in the article is utter nonsense. I've never heard courriel used seriously, this is the first time I've even seen the term eblabla.
― Jibe, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:09 (fourteen years ago)
it's certainly not founded on modern linguistic thinking anyway. the whole thing smacks of pointlessly overzealous nationalism.
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:09 (fourteen years ago)
jibe, a lot of this is true. whether anyone in France really follows it or not, i'm not sure.
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:10 (fourteen years ago)
I know a lot of this is true, but a lot of it is also never used. I say this as a French person living and working in France.
― Jibe, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:14 (fourteen years ago)
I'd love to see the Académiciens approving a translation all the while wondering what a podcast is tho
― Jibe, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:16 (fourteen years ago)
pointlessly overzealous nationalism.
Easy to say when it's not your culture/language being swamped by another culture. As I often point out when discussing this, in 1850 the percentage of Bohemians and Irish who spoke their native languages was roughly equivalent, today Irish is much, much weaker than Czech and much of that does absolutely stem from politics.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:16 (fourteen years ago)
ok almost all of the google hits for "eblabla" are about how this word is supposed to replace "chat" so I don't think any people actually uses this word
― peter in montreal, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:17 (fourteen years ago)
Although, to a certain point, the Academy is almost but not quite irrelevant and their utter failure to catalogue verlan is inexcusable.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:19 (fourteen years ago)
Voici une photo de mon eblabla...assis - je ne sais pas pourquoi - dans l'evier.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:23 (fourteen years ago)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/5199094686_2926cb0e38.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:24 (fourteen years ago)
What are all these crazy swords? The official Academie sword?
― totally small truffles (Abbbottt), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:24 (fourteen years ago)
My eldest daughter was in fourth grade in France last year (CM1) & didn't know much French going, but by the end of the year at her ordinary public school in a pretty-immigrant-heavy Paris banlieue her friends started teaching her Verlan; my daughter picked it up fast which I thought was amazing since at the start of the year even normal French was far away. They used it as a way to talk without the teachers understanding them; my daughter didn't know otherwise that it was a "thing".
― Euler, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:25 (fourteen years ago)
Simone Weil's épée:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoYDLKExNom4Ao.SjzbkF/SIG=13unqn8m0/EXP=1296865611/**http%3a//static1.purepeople.com/articles/5/52/20/5/@/382299-l-epee-qui-a-fait-de-simone-veil-une-637x0-3.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:29 (fourteen years ago)
I really like her sword, btw.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:30 (fourteen years ago)
Abbott, when you're elected to the Academy, you get a sword.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:31 (fourteen years ago)
My mind is blown!
― totally small truffles (Abbbottt), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:31 (fourteen years ago)
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:16 (1 minute ago) Bookmark
Holding on to your language and culture is one thing, but trying to artificially dictate how a country speaks, replacing universally recognised expressions with awkard state-endorsed concoctions is another. Doing this goes against the way language works anyway, and trying to reduce it to the pure essence is completely futile - people will use the words they are most familiar with, and these will be naturally assimilated by the language over time.
The French aren't going to be speaking any other language than French any time soon. English is made up of so many borrowings, where would one draw the line? Would it be right to prefer "I am eating a Mexican chicken wrap on the large stuffed lounging chair" over "I'm sitting on the sofa, eating a fajita"?
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:31 (fourteen years ago)
See, I think 'mail' (said 'meyle') is perfect. E-mail looks too much like the French word for enamel and 'courriel' while calqued on e-mail (electronic + mail) is unnecessarily long. For the purposes of distinguishing it from your minou, chat should also be 'tchat' since that's how the French would write how we anglophones say chat.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:34 (fourteen years ago)
Good point, but why can't people just treat these as homynyms anyway?
This debate reminds me of: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__bmfF3hjVIo/TTSiuKj1HKI/AAAAAAAACNw/vLnPXgGRAwc/s640/email_diamant_reference.jpg which makes me smile each time I go to brush my teeth.
― Bernard V. O'Hare (dog latin), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:40 (fourteen years ago)
"I'm sitting on the sofa, eating a fajita"?
This reminds me of the famous story about Brillat-Savarin (I think, anyway some famous gastronome) who was recounting to a friend how he had been in his drawing room the night before enjoying his dinner - "What?!" exclaimed his interlocutor, "dining in your drawing room?!"
"I didn't say that," replied Brillat Savarin. "I said, I was enjoying my dinner. I had dined a half hour before."
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:41 (fourteen years ago)
Abbott, you'd think they'd give them a fancy pen, wouldn't you? The irony in giving ppl whose job it is to police and defend the written word a sword always makes me smile.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:43 (fourteen years ago)
Okay this whole sword thing.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:50 (fourteen years ago)
And that Brillat-Savarin story is one of my absolute favorites. Learned about it from Ambrose Bierce.
Yes! You're right! I was trying to place it.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:54 (fourteen years ago)
Question is, did Bierce invent it or was it actually an anecdote? I can see it going either way.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:56 (fourteen years ago)
Is there any idiom about pens & swords in French? It really is too crazy! Plus these swords are so artistic, they look like something designed for the Olympics!
― totally small truffles (Abbbottt), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:56 (fourteen years ago)
Okay, this is not from the L'Académie française but from L'Académie des beaux-arts
http://moniblogs.lemoniteur-expert.com/.a/6a00d83451c8b869e20128763fd5ea970c-pi
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:57 (fourteen years ago)
The Brillat-Savarin thing reminds me of another Bierce-references-the-French-greats story from The Devil's Dictionary:
--
ROBBER, n. A candid man of affairs.
It is related of Voltaire that one night he and some traveling companion lodged at a wayside inn. The surroundings were suggestive, and after supper they agreed to tell robber stories in turn. "Once there was a Farmer-General of the Revenues." Saying nothing more, he was encouraged to continue. "That," he said, "is the story."
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 16:57 (fourteen years ago)
Is there any idiom about pens & swords in French?
"La plume est plus forte que l'épée"
(The quill is mightier than the sword)
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 16:59 (fourteen years ago)
Ned, I love that story and it sounds plausibly Voltairian.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:00 (fourteen years ago)
http://www.canalacademie.com/IMG/jpg/IMG_2056_epee_caroline_spip.jpg
Another beaux-arts acad. sword.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:03 (fourteen years ago)
I say we get Abbott to get appointed to this thing so she gets a cool sword.
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 17:04 (fourteen years ago)
OMG it would combine my two loves: old love (being bossy about words) with new love (amazing Académie art swords)!
― totally small truffles (Abbbottt), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:06 (fourteen years ago)
Btw, Ned, I should translate this for you:
"Si je suis élu, je serai immortel; si je suis battu, je n'en mourrai pas. - André Roussin"
The members of the Acadmy are called 'The Immortals' and Roussin said, "If elected, I shall be (an) Immortal, if not, it won't kill me."
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:09 (fourteen years ago)
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoX7nMkxNcn0AqtGjzbkF/SIG=13g4u4rqr/EXP=1296868199/**http%3a//3.bp.blogspot.com/_5YSLf9OekoU/S6JqFB8yk5I/AAAAAAAABUU/5bq4mPeh-UA/s400/S.%2bVeil.jpg
Also, Abbott, you get this cool brocaded jacket.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:10 (fourteen years ago)
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:11 (fourteen years ago)
What the hell, how can Abbott NOT have that. Someone at least photoshop her face onto that photo immediately!
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 February 2011 17:12 (fourteen years ago)
Also I like Roussin's attitude so thank you for that!
That's Simone Weil, btw, whose sword's handle (upthread) has a hand weilding a pen.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:15 (fourteen years ago)
No, that's Simone Veil.
― Euler, Friday, 4 February 2011 17:16 (fourteen years ago)
The Immortals! And yes, I would totally wear that jacket, just bcz it is a great jacket! Let alone swords & immortality. That Roussin statement is fantastic.
― totally small truffles (Abbbottt), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:17 (fourteen years ago)
http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/France/France_Paris_Bridge.jpg
That's the coupole of the Institut de France (where the Academy sits) as seen from the Pont des Arts, one of my favorite places in the whole wide world.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:17 (fourteen years ago)
Gah, of course!
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:20 (fourteen years ago)
Abbott,
http://www.institut-de-france.fr/upload/images/pages/Institution_de_france/Academiciens/broglie_messmer.jpg
The man on the left is the Chancelor of the Institute, M. Gabriel de Broglie. (yes, he is distantly related to the ducs de Broglie)
Here is a 'visite virtuelle' of your new workplace:
http://www.institut-de-france.fr/rubrique_Visite_virtuelle-Introduction.html?arbo=66&page=553
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:28 (fourteen years ago)
outside of some situation where the british literally conquer france, I don't think there's any possibility of the ratio of english words in french ever coming close to the ratio of french words in english. I mean ffs: 'situation' 'literally' 'conquer' 'possibility.
many of the terms the academy is fighting against actually come from french - gee why is 'golden parachute' so easy to translate back to french?
― iatee, Friday, 4 February 2011 17:45 (fourteen years ago)
'Gold' is not of French origin. Man, I am a sick guy 'cause now I'm vaguely wondering if there's an expression like 'douches dorées' in French though I can promise I will not be googling that.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 17:57 (fourteen years ago)
Hélène Carrère d'Encausse's sword:
http://www.goudji.com/site%20K/images/carrere.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:02 (fourteen years ago)
Maurice Tubiana's sword:
http://jean-charles-hachet.com/IMG/jpg/Dscn2756-bis150px.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:04 (fourteen years ago)
Jean Foyer's
http://www.asmp.fr/fiches_academiciens/images/foyer_epee.jpg
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:06 (fourteen years ago)
u like french stuff huh
― conrad, Friday, 4 February 2011 18:09 (fourteen years ago)
Apparently the jacket and sword are obligatory except for churchmen who can retain not only their ecclesiastic vestments but their adversion to arms. Women may or may not wear the sword and if they choose not to, they get a mdeallion.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:10 (fourteen years ago)
Sssshhhh. Let's just keep that our little secret.
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:11 (fourteen years ago)
yeah yeah I know gold isn't french, but we managed to borrow and incorporate 'parachute' without the english language falling apart.
― iatee, Friday, 4 February 2011 18:39 (fourteen years ago)
ic ne forstande
― Le mépris vient de la tête, la haine vient du cœur (Michael White), Friday, 4 February 2011 18:45 (fourteen years ago)
good thing you didn't google that, you'd have found exactly what you were looking for.
― Jibe, Saturday, 5 February 2011 12:42 (fourteen years ago)
stephenfry Stephen FryAt the Académie Française about to interview an "immortal" about his role in trying to keep the French language "pure"2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
― Madchen, Thursday, 10 February 2011 12:44 (fourteen years ago)
sniffy w/ the scarequotes
fry is a bit of a reet these days
― the ineluctable bigness of john mensah (nakhchivan), Thursday, 10 February 2011 12:58 (fourteen years ago)
'Leaving the Académie Française after being told to "fuck off" - 2 hours later'
― Les centimètres énigmatiques (snoball), Thursday, 10 February 2011 13:16 (fourteen years ago)