realism, mimesis in art

claims to realism always make me suspicious because a) there's usually an underlying aesthetic presumption that realism is somehow the most admirable of artistic virtues (which I don't agree with) and b) the term means radically different things to different people, so it's a fairly vague signifier. These two things in combination I find particularly annoying

― You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, March 11, 2011 1:34 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark

this is one of my favorite things to think about, I would like to hear your opinions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOxnqNMwpW4&feature=player_embedded#at=66

http://streetfighterdeluxe.1go.dk/img/characters/dhalsim-4.gifhttp://press.princeton.edu/images/k50.gifhttp://streetfighterdeluxe.1go.dk/img/characters/dhalsim-4.gif

I remember that the Wire would always get discussed in terms of its "realism," which I thought was both misleading and unfair to the show -- as though all you have to do is accurately render reality and you get a gripping show. The Wire was "realistic" in the sense that it explored truths not explored on other shows. But it was also decidedly structured as a direct reaction to other kinds of tv shows, especially cop shows. There are tons of moments that are direct plays on cop show cliches, like where the cop show would have x happen, so y happens instead. This is a great thing about the show, of course, but it's about more than just realism.

Also I mean just generally the way there are so many classical dramatic devices in play.

this thread should mainly be about the wire imo

if i have to read another review where they use the phrase "hypnagogic pop" - i will shake my fist

it's like it exists in its own bubble where that is actually a term people use.

shame gyorgy lukacs carked it before he could finish that james ferraro discography rar

I guess for me, one of the most useful definitions I've heard about art is that all art is just representation, of some form or another. when consuming art, I like using 'real life' as a baseline*, and examining how a particular work of art diverges from that baseline, how so, in what ways, etc.

*of course this assumes that my baseline def. of reality isn't in its own way constructed & fictitious/factitious etc.

of course it's constructed!

Most good art usually diverges from art by not sucking and not being boring 70% of the time.

xp - is Lukacs working on his Chillwave Manifesto?

yeah it def is - I wish I had more time to type out what I mean but I gotta go brb

also would like to register my disapproval @ this 1080p high def red zone just-like-you're-there trend in TV nowadays

it gives me a headache, because i'm obviously not there

1080p is awes

lol I think it's interesting how realism and technology are intertwined. like how maybe at one point, 'realistic' meant approaching the experiential sense of how things are experienced in real life. and how these technological & scientific standards, like resolving power, frames per second, ultra slo mo, have gone far and beyond what the human body can actually experience.

like why is it that the ideal movie watching experience is in front of a 30 foot high screen, why is bigger better, why are the new movie cameras shooting in 4K resolution?

I guess I should do some reading on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality huh?

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/PlatosCave.gif

eco's travels in hyperreality is a really good book of essays

of course it's constructed!

― sarahel, Friday, March 11, 2011 10:41 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

yeah I guess to get back to this - guess what I imagine is, how would one shoot/portray this as if it were happening in real life, like the thought experiment that if there was this invisible camera present at the scene as it was happening in real life, how would it look. probably like surveillance cam footage, huh.

I guess in film, jeanne dielman gets closest to this sort of 'straight shot' reality? I remember my prof told a story once about an author who became obsessed with portraying the life of a grocer as realistically as possible in a book, and then committed suicide or died penniless or something

can't wait for the logical end point to all this which is indistinguishable virtual reality, hello @ virtual sex & the exciting world of teledildonics

my girl alexa does some interesting things w/r/t these questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MYNnYcTyPU

you know her in real life? that's awes

I have a lot to say about this but I also know almost everyone on this board will disagree with me, so... Yeah, can't be fucked.

I would also like to register my approval @ digital photography for showing that analog film photography is actually not very verisimilar at all and actually quite filmic and aesthetic, that is not to say that digital photography doesn't have its own warts, but it seems that we as a society have come to accept digital photography as the new banner of realism

you know her in real life? that's awes

― Slow lorax loves getting tickled (dayo), Friday, March 11, 2011 4:01 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah she's super rad, she's connected me w/most of the cool art ppl i've met in dc

that is pretty awesome

but it seems that we as a society have come to accept digital photography as the new banner of realism

maybe of the contemporary, but, i just took a quick look at this muybridge exhibition, and were i to see a digital photograph that purports to be of the late 19th century, i would not see that as realistic.

but sarahel, if you went in a time machine back to the 19th century would you bring a digicam or a large plate box camera

time machines aren't real!

ha ha that's what you think

like one of the primary uses of photography for as long as it's existed is its documentary function, to prove that this thing or scene or person existed at this point of time at this point in space, film cameras & daguerrotypes & whatever else can still fulfill this function but when most people want to do this they reach for a digital camera nowadays

sure, but in the context of documenting the late 19th century -- an image taken by a film camera or daguerrotype or an image that looks like that, is going to appear more realistic, rather than a digital photo which would be a representation of a representation.

wait, a digital photo of what

a digital photo of the late 19th century - or representing "the late 19th century"

yeah but what would you be taking a picture of? like going to a ren faire?

really, the issue is realism in re anachronistic forms of representation

I still don't get what your point is about taking a digital photo of the late 19th century

like movies using digital technology that are set in the late 19th century - look unrealistic - whereas they would look more realistic if the image quality was closer to the photographic/filmic media of the time.

oh yeah, for sure. our experience of the past will always be mediated through the forms of representation associated with that particular period of the past.

which is why those 'real color photographs from an era normally associated with B&W' stories always have such surprise & wow factor

I have a lot to say about this but I also know almost everyone on this board will disagree with me, so... Yeah, can't be fucked.

― emil.y, Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:01 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark

go ahead bro i wanna hear it

^^^^

right - like the 1906 earthquake one.

but it also makes me think that how much of the "realism" of digital photography or video is that culturally these are associated with documenting "reality"

Well, actually, the thread seems to have gone in a bit of a different direction - my thoughts are more based on the validity of mimesis in general, and those who prioritise it having very conservative views of what mimesis can be...

xposts

yeah def - if you take a step back the whole ludicrous nature of the enterprise becomes pretty apparent xp

emil.y I would love to hear what you have to say

so would i also i suspect i agree with you

Well, I mean, even if you look at the quote in the very first post, you have the idea of questioning 'realism'. For me, the first thing I thought when I learnt about the concept of mimesis was that Modernist writing was more mimetic than classical realist tropes. It just brings up the whole 'reality isn't real' thing - what is artifice? What is reality? Most of the things that I find to adhere closest to realism are in fact the things that are made the most knowingly, the most accepting of their untruth. It's a tough subject to just dive into.

writing & fiction to me seem pretty un-mimetic nowadays - but I'd be curious as to why you think modernist writing is more mimetic than classical realist strategies

i guess i cant think of a time where ive been wary about claims to 'realism.' or what kind of art that would include. i mean, it strikes me as bordering on that thing where music fans will be cool w/ sexism or violence in music but get crotchety about their fav artists saying something auteurish or rockist or counter to their critical philosophy.

i mean, rap obv gets a lot of shit for that but approximations of reality serve a purpose in that stuff just like any other tool an artist uses or framing an atist or audience does

deej I'm having trouble parsing what you just wrote

whats that hemingway thing about 'creating not describing.' i always liked that way of thinking abt this stuff

writing & fiction to me seem pretty un-mimetic nowadays

i disagree really strongly with this - although i guess there are so many subdivisions of meaning here its p much w/e

Because it is closer to the reality! Classical realism tends to adhere to 'realistic' plots, whereas Modernism &c goes for a more phenomenological view, which to me is far more like an actual representation of the world. Just because it is less easy doesn't mean it's less real.

a few xposts there, sorry, got distracted.

Actually i dont know what mimetic means heh... was thinkinf og making a mimosa joke but it wouldnt come...

well writing is still (probably) the best at portraying the interiority of a character...maybe? idk but in terms of raw sense experience there's a lot of other mediums out there that are more 'realistic' (lol)

Oh, well, when I talk about Modernism vs classical realism I am purely talking about them duking it out in literature, there are so many other arguments to make about other media, and believe me I've fought a few of those fights too.

sometimes I think mimesis is just fancy critspeak for realism but I'm sure there's some thinker out there who's gotten a lot of mileage by positing mimesis and realism as two ends of a spectrum or something

it took me a long time to realize why free and indirect discourse was such a big deal but now I think I 'get it'

deej I'm having trouble parsing what you just wrote

― dayo, Thursday, March 10, 2011 10:56 PM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i guess i cant think of a time where, as shakey mo collier described at the beginning of the thread, ive been wary about something making claims to realism. It usually just strikes me as an artistic choice with any other.

having a problem with it was reminding me of when some music writers would get crotchety about an artist saying something rockist, even though they'll put up with more offensive outlooks from the same artists. i guess i cant think of any art where the problem w/ it was the claims to 'realism.' i disagree w/ shakey's use of that description for the wire, and im not sure what other art it describes.

rap gets shit from people for trying to conceive of some reality without acknowledging that its a construction but i think that the argument is more nuanced than that & that reality is more a tool or framework that lets rap artists arguing for a role in discourse that doesnt privilege everyone equally

an artistic choice *like* any other

im trying to engage w/ op cuz im not sure i have anything to say about realism in a more general sense

Mimesis is not quite realism. Realism is about portraying reality. Mimesis is about mimicking reality.

realism is about seeing mimesis is about being

This is my last picture! Shot in real real realism!

realism is an aesthetic/ideology; mimesis is just a process - though it's been over a decade since I actually had to deal with this stuff academically; my life is more about mimosas than mimesis these days.

but going back to this issue vis a vis The Wire (vs. The Sopranos) - I get more pleasure out of The Wire because it depicts things that I see everyday: kids hanging out on corners, a port with shipping containers, cops. The world depicted in The Sopranos doesn't.

I agree with the pov expressed several times in this thread, that realism is just one artistic technique out of many, no better or worse. Realism happens to be a popular technique, because it gives art a reliable pathway for connecting with people, because it will more easily stir up memories and emotions. It's just a really capacious doorway into people's heads, but not the only one, or even the most powerful one.

Is realism a technique though, or is it an effect? Different styles give the feeling of being realistic in different ways.

Yeah I would not call it an effect.

realism is an aesthetic/ideology; mimesis is just a process
Mimesis is not quite realism. Realism is about portraying reality. Mimesis is about mimicking reality.

Emily and Sarahel otm. Errr, I think.

wait I meant that it IS an effect (or style) of sorts and that I wouldn't call it a technique

I usually think of realism as a kind of swimming certificate that demonstrates that you are able to observe and reproduce things to a degree of resolution where someone can be confident you won't drown in your own ineptitude when trying to express something more abstract or fantastical, and almost any kind of art relies on a certain amount of realism in order to be taken seriously (hence, the guns on the wire don't make pew pew laser noises and animated X's don't appear over mcnulty's eyes when he gets drunk)

Realism = bullshit but the Real is often a big virtue of stuff I admire.

NV, Keeping It Real Since 1980-Something