Twelve Step Groups

As many of you here who lovingly follow my postings know, I am currently in therapy for my addiction to success. I meet on a nightly basis with peers to talk about how to dial down our shared compulsions for overachievement.

Do any of you guys have success with these types of groups? Or am I just doomed to be another classic American success story?

perhaps move to australia for awhile. its natural instinct for us to cut down tall poppies, amputate cat tails that have grown too long and resize feet that have outgrown their boots.

Just in general, most people do not have success with these things.

From addictioninfo.org (seemed reputable to me):

The true success rate of AA is very probably somewhere between these two extremes, depending, of course, on how one defines "success"; that is, AA's success rate is probably somewhere between 2.9% and 7% (of those who have attended AA).

From a WaPo article:

... a study completed in 1996 by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism that seemed to find that 12-step treatment works. The study randomly assigned alcoholics to one of three behaviorally based treatments with marked differences in philosophy and practice: a 12-step therapy based on the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, cognitive behavioral therapy and motivational enhancement therapy.

After eight years and $27 million, the study concluded that the techniques were equally effective. More to the point, a 2005 article in the journal BMC Public Health that reanalyzed the data from Project MATCH reported that almost all of the effect of treatment was achieved after attending a single session.

I have no anecdotal or personal experience to add to this, other than to say I have met a number of people in AA and NA and while they may be clean & sober, they still had serious psychological issues that they were not dealing with. IMVHO, I don't think these programs do a very good job at addressing the deep psychological trauma that leads to serious addiction and behavioral problems.

I hold to the idea that a really good therapist, life coach, mentor, or friend can be far more effective than any cooked-up program or system. Look for one of those first, leave the 12-stepping on the bottom of the list.

xpost

I think I insulted an Australian man last night. He asked for directions and I gave them to him and then added "oh where are you from, NZ"? and he was like "oh no, I'm from a little place that's only A THOUSAND MILES from there"

but yeah i live in a place where even the cheesesteaks are overbearing and excessively ambitious. no one takes me seriously though... like i was doing coke last night with the Phanatic and he just made fun of me and ranted about P.J. O'Rourke and libertarians.

he kind of sounds like a dick

I went to an AA meeting two yrs ago after losing my job and etc. It sucked. Needless to say I haven't quit drinking but only drink occasionally now as opposed to 4 nights a week and all weekend

When are you finally getting to step 9 dell?

I wish I could remember the book I read about how NarcAnon had all these philosophical & other types of ties to those teen death camps where you send your probably not very bad kid to go be reformed.

You're asking a group of internet addicts how they feel about 12-step programs? I hope you are not expecting unbiased new answers.

After an internet search, I realize the organization's name is spelled "Narconon," which makes a lot less sense.

is narconon scientologist? because tom cruise mentions it in his secret scientology video. i think it's different from NA.

NA, AA etc are not organized groups that have any kind of 'camps' that you send your kids too. They are very loosely organized collections of people with issues and have no leaders or any monetary holdings to create 'camps'. rehabs and such are a different matter an may utilize 12 step techniques.

I know they don't have NA- or AA-sponsored camps. I figured out the book I was tlaking about – Help At Any Cost, which I haven't read in five years. I don't remember the specifics, just that Narconon tied into their thesis somehow. I will try and reread the book and report back.

Narcocon is Scientology-related, NA is AA related, IIRC.

I have spent the afternoon forcing a university librarian to chat with me over AIM about this.

OK ––– it was Synanon that the book was talking about.

Someone should really trademark the "-anon" and "-onon" suffixes so that I don't get the 12-step groups (who I think are good groups) mixed up with the money-oriented fake est things stealing their names.

I think Narconon came up in Christiane F, which I read around the same time AND it starred troubled teens, which is why I think I mixed up the two -non entities of Synanon and Narconon.

there's a nar-anon which is the 12-step group for families and friends of addicts, narconon will be a different outfit altogether. xp

aa doesn't claim to resolve deep psychological trauma, and many people who go get additional therapy etc. it just helps people to not drink who don't want to drink. if people do want to drink there isn't any point in going. much of the reportage of aa is from people in that category, people who went to a group for giving up drinking when they wanted to continue drinking. i don't blame them for not liking it but i do think them going to a place that is counter to their aims and then being indignant about it is a bit baffling. they can say what they like about it, of course, but when i went i was quite surprised and relieved by the extent of the unreliability of their narratives. i did want to stop and i did stop and also to my surprise a lot of the people were really nice and kind and funny.

When are you finally getting to step 9 dell?

that's in no way conversant with any form of socipathy that i embody. NEXT!

Have you ever thought that you might be addicted....to confessionals?

i used to confuse alanon and synanon and whatever. i have a legitimate book dwnlded on my computer called "it will never happen to me", which is basic people having babies and passing on traumas to the next generation kind of stuff. alanon. helpful for pointing out disturbing patterns, etc. it's good to know that there is so much awareness in the area of addiction issues these days...

Have you ever thought that you might be addicted....to confessionals?

i had a dream the other night that i entered this catholic church, and there were amzing indian honeyed desserts in the holy water fonts, so i think that god is ok with whatever shit comes out of me at this point. maybe it will benefit someone at some point. i'm not good at keeping things to my chest. that's just me.

AA probably extended the lives of at least a couple of my uncles (who lived a fairly long while for chain smokers).

However, I'm glad I've never gotten hooked cuz I don't think I'd do well with that structure.

roger ebert is okay with aa, apparently. or so google says

how do non-believers handle the whole 'put your faith in a higher power' aspect?

in my case i refuse to play cos it's religion in disguise

which means i'm sort of 9 and a half step

cheerful old men in saggy trousers saying:

smash a window
or punch a policeman
but if you haven't picked up a drink
it's been a ~highly~ successful day

is a pretty well-disguised religion i think.

this is sage advice and i'm off to punch a policeman

here is the roger ebert column on AA, which I somehow have never read before today:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/08/my_name_is_roger_and_im_an_alc.html

He gor some crisitcism in the comments for violating AA's 11th tradition, which I didn't know was a thing before reading those comments. A good read, though.

I was talking to a very kind old firefighter recently about the theism-free 12-step recovery program he was going through at the VA that he said was helping him. I wish I remembered the name of it.

A "cult?" How can that be, when it's free, nobody profits and nobody is in charge? A.A. is an oral tradition reaching back to that first meeting between Bill W. and Doctor Bob in the lobby of an Akron hotel. They'd tried psychiatry, the church, the Cure.

Based on the many nights I have sat around in self-loathing, drinking & listening to "Carnage Visors," I know The Cure doesn't work, either.

how do non-believers handle the whole 'put your faith in a higher power' aspect?

like higher self or earth or whatever. doesn't matter.

i mean, it's like yoga. everybody thinks about or obsesses about something now and again. god, videogames, tall dark handsome strangers, whatever. similar principles at work. the energy of devotion is strong and works regardless of the "object"

Regarding faith in a higher power.

First, faith.

Faith does not imply any particular belief. We all have faith in things that cannot be verified in any way, such as what our immediate future will look like. Wherever knowledge stops, faith begins, and given the stress that can arise in the face of the unknown, faith is a very helpful and useful commodity for getting through the day. I would repeat, we all have various kinds of faith, regardless of what we think of religion.

As for higher powers.

It would be objectively untrue to think that humans, singularly or in aggregate, are the most powerful force in existence. We are proved weaklings on a daily basis. You need not believe that a higher power is concerned with your individual welfare in order to trust that your existence is provided for, and aligns with the laws of that higher power. Your existence proves this is a fact.

but a nihilist doesn't necessarily have those things, and there's not much more nihilistic than a hardcore addict

well, y'know it's like christina grof wrote that book the thirst for wholeness...addiction as misplaced craving for god/spiritual wholeness. freedom experienced sometimes seems threatening rather than liberating, so it's natural to fixate on something. anything. nihilism can be a good balm. don't no how well it translates into bodyshots, though

i'm a bodyshot alcoholic. i have this mannequin set up in my kitchen. don't ask.

well it's more sociable i guess

Sorry but, even as a god-botherer myself, the idea that addiction is an attempt to fill that "god-shaped hole" or whatever is bullshit IMO.

I like my god-shaped holes to be the same way i like my narcissism-- unbridled and

wait what was the question?

akm, i like that ebert piece a lot, i'd never read it before either.

i like the part about how he got sick of the atheist group b/c they wouldn't shut up about god

I have no anecdotal or personal experience to add to this, other than to say I have met a number of people in AA and NA and while they may be clean & sober, they still had serious psychological issues that they were not dealing with. IMVHO, I don't think these programs do a very good job at addressing the deep psychological trauma that leads to serious addiction and behavioral problems.

aa doesn't claim to resolve deep psychological trauma, and many people who go get additional therapy etc. it just helps people to not drink who don't want to drink.

idk i think the 12 steps are structured specifically to force you to recognize and confront these deeper issues. if it came down to just wanting to stop drinking/using/overeating/(insert compulsive/addictive behavior here) it would just be one step.

i do agree that therapy is (in most cases) an indispensable part of recovery. but having a fellowship and a program helps you feel like you're on the right path & you're not in it alone. a lot of people might relapse but they know they'll have a helping hand to get back on the wagon and that they have a chance to survive.

(thought about 12-step programs while reading the alt-right thread lol)

re: putting your faith in a higher power, that can just be as simple as getting out of your own head and being humble and recognizing that serving a purpose beyond yourself can be fulfilling