if we had captured OBL, should we have killed him?

im p sure if the prosecution had kidnapped someone from a foreign country, the trial would be voided

without getting rumsfeldian, it is difficult to classify osama as a regular criminal

Definitely anti-death penalty. And as such I consider this killing wrong. Everyone is entitled to a fair trial and a punishment, just not death.

it is difficult to classify osama as a regular criminal

True, but the punishment was without trial. Sorry, I just think it's wrong.

Nathalie, what if he were killed because he was violently resisting arrest and endangering the Seals sent to capture him?

wow according to Wikipedia we are one of the few countries in our position who still uses the death penalty in treason cases

that shouldn't surprise me but it does

Nathalie, what if he were killed because he was violently resisting arrest and endangering the Seals sent to capture him?

Yes, that seems to be getting overlooked. Voted #3 obviously.

also where is the "I'm not anti-death penalty but if captured alive he shouldn't be killed" option

Michael, that is something else. Then of course I would understand. Was that indeed the case? Ask Obama, he was watching this "show." But come on, honestly, that could be avoided anyway.

Capturing him and then killing him in captivity would be the worst possible thing that could have happened, ahead of trial I mean.

Capturing him and inprisoning him for life I would've been down with.

In this situation, I'm not so sure. Does the fact that he was in Pakistan change things? What if they'd found him in the middle of Afghanistan, where we're technically at war?

we're one of the few civilized countries who uses the death penalty period

option 3 obv

dude we are bankrolling "Jersey Shore", I don't think we can continue to pretend we're civilized

In this situation, I'm not so sure. Does the fact that he was in Pakistan change things? What if they'd found him in the middle of Afghanistan, where we're technically at war?

― Matt DC, Tuesday, May 3, 2011 10:37 AM (30 seconds ago)

shhhh this is the first time anyone from the us military has set foot in pakistan, just a one time thing

dude we are bankrolling "Jersey Shore", I don't think we can continue to pretend we're civilized

― Dreaded Burrito Gang (DJP), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 10:39 AM (4 seconds ago)

well duh

hm - I

also where is the "I'm not anti-death penalty but if captured alive he shouldn't be killed" option
--Dreaded Burrito Gang (DJP)

lol I thought about it but it was too tempting for joke votes

I mean, how do they justify this? Honestly, I think this whole show is disgusting.

we're a country where college students eat Taco Bell at 3 am.

why wouldnt you kill OBL if you're not anti-death penalty?

(I am talking about the killing, not The Killing which was just mediocre.)

Learn some tricks from him?

I guess truthers could argue that hd

why wouldnt you kill OBL if you're not anti-death penalty?
--estkella (k3vin k.)

truther vote

If we had captured him, we'd have sb'ed him.

I've become an opponent of the death penalty in the last ten years, but not so much that I mourn the chance to try Osama in court, and especially not after the Obama Justice Department has shown its ineptitude in handling the politics.

On the other hand, the death of Saddam Hussein was disgusting.

Because you might believe in affording people the right to a free trial... then you kill them? (xxxp)

Capturing him and then killing him in captivity would be the worst possible thing that could have happened, ahead of trial I mean.

otm

i think it's better for the world that they just capped him

he'd garner sympathy in prison, or, given that he'd not exactly be in gen-pop, there'd be anger over his special treatment

I mean, how do they justify this? Honestly, I think this whole show is disgusting.

― Nathalie (stevienixed), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:40 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

are you talking about jersey shore still? because it think it's kind of easy to justify killing osama bin laden

otm

I am anti-death penalty in general but mostly for financial reasons and the possibility of executing an innocent person however small the likelihood of that may actually be. Since neither of those reasons would really apply here I do think it's difficult to classify him as an ordinary criminal.

he'd garner sympathy in prison

No doubt, he'd be getting marriage proposals by the dozen

i think it's better for the world that they just capped him

From a geo-political point of view this is a rather bold statement. How is it better for *the world*?

why wouldnt you kill OBL if you're not anti-death penalty?

To interrogate him and then try him and let him be an example for the rest of his years.

The reason they didn't avoid killing him was because they werre conduicting a raid in a sovereign nation on a house that was purported w/o confirmation to be his by four helicopters carrying two dozen soldiers. Had anything not gone well, there would have been hell to pay for Obama so I'm sure that they conducted the raid according to normal procedures (the official US policy is not to kill anyone who surrenders peacefully) and bin Laden very naturally decided to die fighting instead of becoming a pawn to his enemies forever.

i think it's better for the world that they just capped him

Not necessarily. You are looking at it from your western viewpoint.

And of course one can defend it, but it doesn't make it right from a legal standpoint. Everyone deserves a trial, no?

bin Laden very naturally decided to die fighting instead of becoming a pawn to his enemies forever

Also, virgins

why wouldnt you kill OBL if you're not anti-death penalty?

Why would you? Not being anti-death penalty does not automatically mean you think every criminal or enemy of the country should be put to death if they are taken into custody. This isn't a rigid binary decision.

You don't have to be across-the-board against the death penalty to think life imprisonment is a more appropriate sentence than death in some cases; besides, one could argue that the more vindictive, crueler sentence would be to keep him alive but locked up for the rest of his life if you really want to work the righteous vengeance angle.

Although the downside to keeping him in prison is that 20 years from now our kids would be wearing ironic Obama t-shirts to their college classes, I don't think any of us would want that.

oh shit

OSAMA

you can't trust the state with the power to kill people and the death penalty is totally unacceptable and barbaric but i feel weirdly ok with some navy seal or whoever making a decision in a firefight; i think the only entity that can have the necessary moral authority in this situation is an individual acting individually. in the same way that i'd understand if you killed, like, your child's murderer, even if i don't think the state should. it's a sin but we're just people.

a huge public criminal trial in new york city would have made me happy but everyone knows that the u.s. doesn't walk the walk on that one, so oh well.

brb, jumping out a window

hahaha

what happened with Saddam always left a bad taste in my mouth, i know he was a bad dude but considering the muddled and absurd circumstances under which he was removed from power and eventually captured, the swift trial and execution didn't really feel like "justice has been served," even he was technically being punished for his crimes way back in the '80s. so even as apples-and-oranges as it is, it's hard to think of OBL theoretically being captured alive without taking that into account.

also, this is admittedly not a 'fair' or moral way of looking at things, but just think about what a drawn out spectacle it could've been to have Osama alive, him being on trial but admitting no wrongdoing or recognizing the validity of the court, making pronouncements to his followers, etc. this kind of quick and sudden end without a bunch of public debate may not give anyone "closure" or solve any problems, but it does kind of close that book and maybe let us look forward to other problems and/or see how much of an issue Al Qaeda or terrorism in general will be post-Osama.

xxpost Oh no, it still works, DJP. heh

let him be an example for the rest of his years.

he'd be an example of what a mean bunch of meanies the western democracies are, locking up a great man like osama

From a geo-political point of view this is a rather bold statement. How is it better for *the world*?

― Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, May 3, 2011 3:47 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark

AQ has killed people on most continents iirc -- or course, he wasn't the leader of all islamist terror gangs everywhere, but i take it that on the whole islamist terror gangs are a bad thing and osama was a big cheese in that world

You are looking at it from your western viewpoint.

you're a moron

Naturally I am.

I guess I can reveal to you all now, I am actually Ann Coulter

sorry for the long deception

just think about what a drawn out spectacle it could've been to have Osama alive, him being on trial but admitting no wrongdoing or recognizing the validity of the court, making pronouncements to his followers, etc.

he would have looked like a sick and crazy old man and it would have been clear that his enemies had nothing to hide or fear. it's not like his "followers" are gonna abandon him because he didn't yell some stuff about "feminized jews" on tv.

in the same way that i'd understand if you killed, like, your child's murderer, even if i don't think the state should. it's a sin but we're just people.

I'm no fan of the death penalty but I find this logic dangerously retrograde. Vigilantism is not a step forward.

that explains all the sexual tension between you and ethan (xpost)

Nonsense, DJP, you have repeatedly showed yourself to be far, far more clever than that harpy.

you leave my boo out of this, Glenn

oops I mean "some dude"

I'm anti-Death Penalty, I thought the execution of Saddam Hussein was wrong, if Bin Laden had been taken alive I'd be anti executing him, I've got no real concerns about whether the guy was caught shot resisting capture or not. It was a combat situation afaic

you can't trust the state with the power to kill people and the death penalty is totally unacceptable and barbaric but i feel weirdly ok with some navy seal or whoever making a decision in a firefight;

― difficult listening hour, dinsdag 3 mei 2011 16:49 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Correct me if I'm wrong (can't find the Obama speech in full right now), but didn't Obama clearly voice that OBL was killed after there had been a firefight? That can't be a slip-up, surely, with his lawyers and advisers looking at every word before he read it out.

i'm not condoning vigilantism! some things are just easier to forgive than others.

xxxxxp wow

you're a moron

― lloyd banks knew my father (history mayne), dinsdag 3 mei 2011 16:51 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

Come now, is this really necessary?

smdh

I'm anti-Death Penalty, I thought the execution of Saddam Hussein was wrong, if Bin Laden had been taken alive I'd be anti executing him, I've got no real concerns about whether the guy was caught shot resisting capture or not. It was a combat situation afaic

My thoughts entirely

right on. after the victim gets revenge, the only person left to turn the gun on is themselves, right morbs?

MSNBC was pretty much what Tea Partiers say they are last night, so maybe their fans should take a long hard look in the mirror and dwell on life choices.

if you take every criticism personally maybe pick someone to speak for you who isn't a numbskull

I'm anti-death penalty and there don't need to be any exceptions

^^^voted.

altho I'm not really shedding too many tears over him being killed in a military action. doubt he would have allowed himself to be taken alive, that would run counter to his ideology

xp

nyuk nyuk nyuk

xp

MSNBC needs to be what Tea Partiers say it is, ie actually left-wing.

That's the most numbskull Perrin excerpt I've ever seen BTW.

should Dubya be taken alive?

Dubya should be in Gitmo imho

being waterboarded by his dad

double tap

with Barbara Bush sitting on his face.

first he put up a fight, then he was unarmed, now he "participated" but did not "return fire".

first he uses "a wife" as a human shield and she dies. now she's not dead, and wasn't used as a human shield.

first it was one bullet to the left eye, then one bullet to the chest and one to the head, then two bullets to the head. now back to "bullets in the chest and head".

i mean obviously none of this is here nor there but you'd have thought they'd have a version of the facts at the beginning that they could stick to.

maybe it was faked, just like the moon landing and Obama's birth certificate

well speaking as an enthusiast of conspiracy theories when the facts shift like this it's like sterno to an alcoholic

MSNBC was pretty much what Tea Partiers say they are last night, so maybe their fans should take a long hard look in the mirror and dwell on life choices.

the difference being I'm not posting quotes from MSNBC as food for thought because I think MSNBC sucks

really, really want a gif of Barbara Bush shitting on Dubya's face.

yeah Dan, I was not accusing u of thinking otherwise

when the facts shift like this it's like sterno to an alcoholic

I'm pretty sure that, sidestepping the legality of targeted assassination of known criminals/enemy combattants, they went in knowing there was basically no chance to take him alive and getting the heck out of Pakistan as quickly as possible was u&k so the took him out and took off.

heard some news reports about the rest of the not-dead household (women? some kids?) sort of... drifting into the woodwork. strange stuff.

i am shocked that my government was not being entirely truthful regarding this incident!

really, really want a gif of Barbara Bush shitting on Dubya's face.

― ginny thomas and tonic (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:40 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

read this as "sitting" and was like "ew!" and then i read it correctly and now i'm still like "ew!"

I believe that would be in keeping w/ our president's description of her as "the remarkable Barbara Bush"

also cmon, "an Obama 2012 bumpersticker taped over his mouth" is a total lol.

can't believe perrin 'went there' and suggested a politician might use something that happened under his command to improve his electoral chances

really pulling back the veil

how's yr veil doin'

really, really want a gif of Barbara Bush shitting on Dubya's face.

― ginny thomas and tonic (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:40 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

read this as "sitting" and was like "ew!" and then i read it correctly and now i'm still like "ew!"

― tInA-yOtHeRs (donna rouge), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:49 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

me too lol

on the low I heard he shot himself

I am trying very hard to make an RHCP "hate all the dissed them but shot all that like them" joke and it's just not gelling ;_;

Osama bin Laden RIP
its sad he was a drummer

blimey

― lloyd banks knew my father (history mayne)

i don't understand british interjections

― estkella (k3vin k.)

NB: Bob's my great uncle, on my mom's side.

i dunno guys, i find myself *~curiously unmoved~* by the death of osama bin laden.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

wow

i didnt vote in this poll but i basically agree w/ everyone else? im anti-death penalty but im pretty "okay" with the way this went down.

bet some truly awful papers about osama and 'the state of exception' are being written right now

max is that really how "everyone else" voted?

I think he was referring to the fact that several people stated that as their general feeling about things in the posts itt.

uh i dont know--the poll options dont ask if people are "'okay' with the way this went down." i meant "most of the people commenting on this thread."

right duh

duh

im super surprised by the outcome, in a way, though i guess IF we had captured him...

but "I'm not anti-death penalty (in theory) and obv we should have killed him" is poorly phrased

im far more comfortable with him dying as he did than in some formal, "legal" way

yes exactly

Shoulda put him in Riker's, general population

american me 2: the osama years

should've marooned him on ceti alpha V IMO

very surprised! I really thought this would be more or less 1/3 1/3 1/3

Osama bin Laden RIP
its sad he was a drummer

Also, he was an Arsenal fan.

on the low I heard he shot himself

― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:38 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

bet some truly awful papers about osama and 'the state of exception' are being written right now

― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Tuesday, May 3, 2011 11:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

and a hearty FUCK YEAH to ILX's hardline anti-death-penalty stance

I voted for "I'm not anti-death penalty (in theory) and obv we should have killed him" mostly because of the "in theory" part. I'm against the death penalty in the United States bc of institutional imperfections, corruption of justice, similar stuff, but in theory I believe that the punishment of certain crimes should be death. Osama Bin Laden is, in my eyes, one of these cases. In my perfect system the death penalty would always be an option for justice but one that is rarely (to the point of never) used. For example Israel only using the death penalty once in its history, on Eichmann. I'm also happier that Bin Laden was killed the way he was and prefer that to the theoretical thread question.

For example Israel only using the death penalty once in its history

haha yeah...technically...