Dealing with parents who are controlling.

Be advised, thread contains personal issues of a family nature.

Some of you may know that I work for my dad's business, which I am actively trying to leave for the sake of my own mental health. Also I've recently begun therapy and have been dealing with a lot of the accumulated effects of my dad's control issues throughout my lifetime -- trouble asserting myself, difficulty expressing anger, second-guessing my capability, aversion to risk, etc.

With the provision that this could be filed under "privileged white boy problems," we'll fast forward to today: I enter my dad's office to report on our month-to-date sales; both he and his assistant are there. He is looking up home listings on his computer since he is considering buying properties to rent out. One is on his block, located in the wealthiest area of Providence -- a house that I could not even remotely afford to pay property taxes on, let alone afford a mortgage for and maintain. He asks me if I want to live there, with the implication that he would provide substantial financial support. I tell him "No, I'm not really looking to live on the same block as you."

"I don't really care about your reasons," he replies. "Can you believe how spoiled my kids are?" he says to his assistant.

So just to be clear, he's not only controlling but dismissive and manipulative as well. And with some backwards logic, to boot. Somehow, to him, not wanting to be completely financially dependent on him is a sign that I am "spoiled" and ungrateful. And he obviously has no second thoughts about blatantly insulting me in front of people I work with on a daily basis. It would be rude and hurtful coming from anyone, but yeah this is my dad.

Sorry if this is emotional TMI or tl;dr, but I'm having real trouble dealing and am becoming increasingly aware of how toxic a person my father can be. I'm hoping to find a new job very soon but if this keeps up I'm just gonna quit.

i'm normally not one to share such stuff publicly, but i'm trying to overcome some learned attitudes like, "no one is interested in hearing about my problems."

If anyone with experience with this sort of situation / these sort of people, I'd really appreciate hearing about it.

to be honest i think that maybe "No, I'm not really looking to live on the same block as you." wasn't that good a thing to say. maybe it seemed different to you but it comes across as an insult just reading it cold like that.

I have a bit of experience in such matters and I find it nice to live 5 hours away.

aw man elmo that sucks

I might not be the best one to advise in this area cuz I didn't talk to my dad for 7 years because of his abusive bullshit, not a viable option for everyone

to be honest i think that maybe "No, I'm not really looking to live on the same block as you." wasn't that good a thing to say. maybe it seemed different to you but it comes across as an insult just reading it cold like that.

yeah, that's what I was thinking

obv. it is very difficult to say "the right thing" in a situation where you feel you are already under siege, but maybe you should try going back to him and explaining that that came out wrong and you really just want to support yourself in a place you can afford

When I was growing up, right up to my late teens when I moved out, my father used to love to insult me and put me down in front of ev-er-y-bo-dy. Pretty much every time I spoke to the person later on, they'd say "wow your dad is such a complete arsehole". That really helped me keep perspective. Also the realisation that he was speaking like that to someone, regardless of who they were, whenever he thought he could get away with it.

jed: It might sound that way, except he's tried to pressure me into buying a home in much the same way on earlier occasions. I've told him multiple times that I'm not interested in owning a home that I can't afford, but apparently my wishes in this regard do not matter. The proximity thing is just the first and easiest reason I reached for.

I am very happy to hear you dissect your father's pattern with such clarity. It really shows how well you've been able to analyze it dispassionately, despite all the emotions that come rapped up in that ugly little package. That is a laudable feat and a very difficuly one. You're handling this extremely well from what I can see. Congratulations.

Your proposed solution appears to me to be the correct one. Get out from under his thumb, become independent of him financially, even if it comes at the cost of just ekeing out a bare living. Once he is no longer your boss and your meal ticket, you can start to straighten out your fillial relationship with him. Until you have that distance and freedom, the necessary changes to your relationship will not go well. He is too innured to having the whip hand and using it.

Good luck. This is going to be a long term project, obv. You are heading in exactly the right direction.

elmo, i get what you mean now but maybe he doesn't... yet. would it be possible to explain the situation calmly and reasonably or will it blow up whatever happens?

sorry, i thought it was implicitly provocative too. now, it seems also to be true. the question is how to convey that truth 1) in a straightforward way, 2) in a place where you are not to some extent challenging your dad in front of his staff. i'm only saying that paying attention to the inevitable dynamics of the circumstances might be helpful in keeping an even keel in your interactions with him.

i hope you find another situation soon.

Elmo - I don't really have any good advice since I'm still learning how to handle my own (somewhat) controlling and (very) manipulative parents but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're going through this. I know how hard it is.

you should prolly both agree not to talk about family business in front of the staff, I know this line must be blurry for y'all but seems like a good guideline

also, i recognize that he may have been, in fact, knowingly provoking you with the question. controlling ppl like to press buttons, it validates them. gotta not play if you can help it.
xpost

you could always do the "let me think about it" deflection and then never give an answer

that may be too passive-aggressive tho

On the flipside: my older brother, who suffers from persistent chronic mental illness, is entirely financially dependent on my dad; and my dad actually resents him for this.

Well, it's all about him, innit?

ed, not discussing family matters at work would definitely be a good guideline that I would support, but i sadly doubt that i could propose that with success. my dad lives in this big-boss-man paterfamilias sort of role and there is barely any separation in his home & work life. For example, he'll often bring his young kids (3 & 5 years old) into work and have one of his employees essentially babysit for him.

thanks enbb! <3 i'm doing alright but i just have more tolerance for this type of disrespect

whenever I even set foot in my hoetown its like kryptonite - you must get away from the vampire parent!

formerly idle fantasies of moving to california are looking more and more reasonable lately

how was your dad raised? did he inherit his money or was he a "self-made man"?

i agree with Aimless, elmo. sounds like you're doing exactly the right things. i'm sorry you have to deal with all of this. i...identify. cutting off ties was the only way i could figure out how to handle this stuff; i hope it works out better for you.

sarahel, my dad's made his own money, and i guess i can respect him as an entrepreneur; he didn't inherit much aside from some land from his own father, who was also a successful entrepreneur in his own right.

so, presumably he'd respect you for wanting to make your own way? He's clearly proud of what he's accomplished on his own. And as a business person, he should respect the fact that you want to live within your means.

yeah, but there's nothing rational about controlling behavior. i think elmo's example of how his elder brother is financially dependent on their dad and the dad resents it, while at the same time trying to use his money to keep elmo dependent is a perfect illustration of this.

I'm just trying to brainstorm/get at possible ways of you telling him what you want and need in a way so that he will treat you with respect, which it seems like is the core of the problem (i.e. he doesn't).

horseshoe otm. my dad prides himself on being able to provide for his family, but his generosity comes with strings attached and is only freely given if he gets to dictate the terms. he can't set terms on my brother's mental illness, so he resents my brother's dependence.

horseshoe, i dunno, from my experience, controlling people do a lot of rationalization of their behavior, unless they're just batshit crazy/completely divorced from reality.

i just feel like elmo should focus on changing things so that his dad has less control over his life (which he is totally doing already), rather than worrying about how to magically get his dad to respect him. i'm also assuming (due to overidentification lol) that elmo has already tried to communicate with his dad about these issues and it hasn't worked.

Like, you can present them with rational arguments and they can be effective -- though it generally requires being really firm/often to the point of aggressive and sometimes ultimatums.

in my experience that has not worked

everybody itt OTM. you need to get out from under, elmo, even if it means anxiety in the short run. get out of the job, maybe out of town. you might even wanna quit before you've got something else lined up, cuz it's easy to procrastinate or find reasons to stay "just a little longer" once a pattern is established.

i say this cuz i'm a creature of habit/routine, and i find it very hard to jar myself out of a rut once i'm situated ― even when the situation is clearly toxic. change either seems impossible or the potential risks appear too great, but once i finally make the leap, i always feel 1000% better.

i.e., the sooner the better, carpe diem, etc.

Oh horseshoe, I'm not saying "just try to reason with him" - I'm saying "do what you need to do, and if he gives you shit, present said arguments in a respectful, but assertive way."

Sometimes you gotta know that any rational arguments or justifications are gonna be for you, not for him. If saying them will give you closure, make you feel like you did everything you could in the best possible way, then say them. But often, they don't have any impact on a person who's already blinkered by their own self-involvement. And sometimes the other person uses them to pry open a new crack of contention which you then have to not get sucked into.

Case by case, really. Good luck, elmo. I'm pulling for ya.

yes, exactly. Laurel otm!

well, yeah, the arguments have to be coupled with action -- because the controlling parent is not going to change their ways if the relationship dynamic stays the same. You've gotta make like Nora in "A Doll's House" and shut the door behind you.

yeah, my dad is not very easy to reason with, but to be honest the prospect of asserting myself to him brings up a lot of anxiety for me. sometimes i feel the best response i could hope for would be for him to say "do whatever the fuck you want & see if i care." which i've heard from him before, and which is not even an honest response at all. because he does care -- it bothers him for me to have a life that is not subject to his control, so he comes up with ways to draw me back in, usually financially.

xxposts

btw <3 <3 <3 thank you guys for your advice & willingness to talk about this. it's weirdly comforting to get outside confirmation of my family's dysfunction, ha

is it so bad that he might try to sabotage other job prospects of yours?

change either seems impossible or the potential risks appear too great, but once i finally make the leap, i always feel 1000% better.

^^^ feeling this hard

i don't think so, sarahel. he's king shit in his own controlled world but he's not quite that influential beyond its borders.

that's good at least!

I have had a lot of the same issues you are experiencing. Therapy was helpful, but what was more helpful was moving and not being in a situation where I had to interact with my mom so often. Hopefully you will find another job soon.

eat a sugar

presumably he'd respect you for wanting to make your own way? He's clearly proud of what he's accomplished on his own. And as a business person, he should respect the fact that you want to live within your means.

i know, right? but this is strangely not the case. it sucks, but i feel like my dad is more comfortable seeing me fall short of my potential & relying on him than he would be if i was independently successful on my own. and i'm coming to realize that i'd even internalized that preference for a long time as a way of avoiding conflict. shit.

competitive dad

yup.

don't let his sources of discontentment be yours!

i know, right? but this is strangely not the case. it sucks, but i feel like my dad is more comfortable seeing me fall short of my potential & relying on him than he would be if i was independently successful on my own. and i'm coming to realize that i'd even internalized that preference for a long time as a way of avoiding conflict. shit.

― burberry kush (elmo argonaut), Friday, June 10, 2011 2:20 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

sometimes i think this might be the case for me, too

growing up is hard work!

xp ^^^ I think that a good part of my father's unpleasantness to others comes from feeling inferior to his own father.

i feel you elmo. i've been in almost the exact same situation

for me, moving out of town and becoming financially independent helped a lot. even if it didn't change his way of thinking at all. he'd still boss, cajole, and overplan like always, i was just more inclined to say no. i had to remind myself that none of his employees ever say no to him, his wife doesn't. i may be the only person in his life that sticks up to him. it's uncomfortable, not much fun, but i try to remind myself that's it's good for me and it's definitely good for him.

Is there any way you could communicate the way you feel to your father, either one on one, or in a therapy-type situation? Sometimes these negative communication patterns get locked in and it will take some work to circumvent them. At the very least, I think you should have a talk with your father (in private) about acceptable workplace interactions. It's quite possible that he is actually threatened by your independence and lack of desire to live on his street/under his thumb and that's the reason he sort of lashed out at you (not that that makes it acceptable).

Good luck with it . . . I'm sorry such a spiffy gingham dresser as yourself has to deal with this. . . .

elmo, i've been in a similar situation for the past two years. my parents run a small business, and after i finished grad school and it became clear i wasn't going to get hired right off the bat, i came home. i've always felt financially dependent on my parents, which has been difficult for me because my mother is emotionally damaged and dysfunctional. she herself was a victim of abuse, worse than anything i've experienced. the world for her is a scary place that is out to sabotage her. as a result, she relates to others in terms of her own status as a "nice" or "not nice" person and is manipulative and controlling. my father is wrapped up in all this and i can't help but think of him as her pawn, even though he is his own person at heart. in any case, that dreaded, deadening feeling of being "pulled back in" is something i've felt acutely since i was a child.

mom is not as bad as she used to be, but she is still toxic to be around when my defenses are weak. she loves me and she cares about me, but her love and care are stunted by her deeply ingrained fears and insecurities. of course, i'm particularly sensitive to it after being around it my entire life.

here's what has helped me really start to get over all of the hurt and the poison: the realization that the only person i have any control of is myself, and that i am the only person for whom i can take responsibility. once that started to sink in -- that i can't make my parents or my mother change -- it became clear to me that the way out from "under their thumb" was to take responsibility for myself and only for myself, and only for my side of these relationships. not ignoring my parents, but putting them in their place, the only place they can be, as other human beings who only have control over themselves and who have to earn a functioning relationship with respect and empathy, not talismans or sparring partners or weights tied to everything i do or embodied standards of acceptability and judgment. even though i relied on them for my paycheck and had to come into work every day, i could still define my own boundaries. i couldn't make them change their behavior, but i could clearly communicate what my boundaries were and remind them, calmly and clearly, what i would and would not tolerate, with the ultimatum that if my boundaries weren't respected, i would disengage and cut them off. then it becomes their decision -- listen to and respect or even try to understand what is being communicated or lose their son. it's important to remember and hard to do (it gets easier), but this also means defining what behavior you will and won't engage in yourself, no matter how much you feel provoked. i remember one shouting match i had with them where all of this finally started to click. i was going on and on about what i felt my mother had done to me etc until i accused her of "holding me emotionally hostage." she looked at me incredulously and cried "how am i holding you emotionally hostage?" i realized she was not holding anyone emotionally hostage. i was blaming her for my inability to be myself! i had no one to blame for that but myself.

as difficult as it is, elmo, you need to explain to your father what your boundaries are and what those mean. not for his benefit, per se, but for your own sanity. it's really hard to do this calmly and clearly when your emotions are so raw from it all. it helped me to think on it for, like, months, and sit down and write out point by point in as neutral a way as i could what i would and would not stand for. then, depending on how he responds, you can feel good about a) redefining you relationship or b) leaving him behind. if you do your best to explain your own bottom line to your dad, when you DO move on from your job, you can more easily move on from him too.

this is all my opinion and my (somewhat strong) intuition, i know i'm not prescribing some solution and i'm definitely not a mental health professional. it's just, i think i've been there and i think i'm finally starting to move past it, so this is what i think about it. elmo if u want to talk more, send me a webmail.

also, Laurel awesomely otm above.

boundaries

^^^ urgent & key

I'm not going to say who, but I have a relative who tries all kinds of egocentric self-centred BS with everyone else, except me. Mainly because I've shown them that when they start acting out or otherwise try to start shit, I don't get sucked in.

matt, thank you so much for sharing that and i'm very grateful for your advice. i know it's gonna be a process but i do feel that i'm headed in the right direction by getting therapy and looking for a new job.

i keep having to remind myself at the progress i've already made: just a few years ago i was living in a house with my brother that my dad owned -- where my dad basically installed me after college to be my brother's caretaker and where i was utterly miserable. now i have a life & home of my own, paying all my own bills, taking care of myself more, with a loving boyfriend and a cute puppy to call mine.

i may take you up on further discussion, but not before i drink lots of beers this evening!

yeah boundaries are so so difficult to negotiate with a control freak! which is why i need to practice asserting myself and what i want and what i need.

my dad used to be like this, and along with many other lamentable factors, it pretty much ruined the family and took an entire decade of our formative years along with.

I've found that treating his behaviour as childish (which you know it to be, right?) got results, both immediately and in the long run, matt otm- calmly refuse to engage on your dad's terms with the behaviour/situations he's trying to force upon you- and tell him why when you do so. I know from experience how daunting it can be to attempt to trivialise yr dad and the consequences of defying him, but you have to start by taking full responsibility for how you act and react to him.

Sounds like such self-help mantra rubbish, and vague nonsense to boot, but gl.

Can't add to the mountain of good advice already in the thread, but I can add to the good wishes and "here's to independence."

As noted, it's awfully satisfying to flip the parent-child relationship. The louder he gets, the calmer you get, to the point where it's obvious to everyone that he's a 4-year-old having a tantrum.

elmo, that's awesome! sometimes it's hard to remember the progress you've made and the direction you're headed, but it's important cuz it can help you from falling back into the same headspace. so happy you have a life and a guy (and a puppy). that's the good stuff.

I get along with my mom but she is controlling in her own way. I may have to sue her and my brother for control of my father's estate, which is awful because I am on good terms with them! They keep telling me I'm too psychologically weak to manage it. I was very close to my dad and they weren't and they ran his whole funeral and everything, not doing it my way. I love them but now we are going to have a huge fight and already had one nasty spat with my brother and he's got all the bank and mom always sides with him.

sorry this is going on with you elmo! issues with my parents = why i couldn't wait to leave home as soon as i could get away to college. my mother is very controlling and manipulative. has a way of saying the meanest things she can think of whenever she gets upset, pulling guilt trips, dumping all her problems on me, etc. i can't say as they ever tried to pressure me to do anything in particular, but that's because they are too preoccupied with themselves - parents are divorced and the other parent is basically a functional alcoholic.

i saw most clearly how messed up it was when my brother lately has had some pretty positive things happen in his life.. and i see my parents react by trying to undermine him or predict it will turn out badly. i don't know what it is with my father, but he seems unable to interact with my brother without being a know-it-all and putting him down in subtle ways. my read on the situation is that my father is frankly just too insecure/afraid to talk to my brother like he's an adult and an equal who should be treated with respect. it's too bad.

so, to this day i am terrible at negotiating boundaries, because i was brought up to always be polite and try very hard to stop any kind of conflict from happening, since the alternative was parents yelling each other or at me.

it's hard to change when you are constantly around people who expect you to behave a certain way and flip out if you try to behave differently, no matter how reasonable you are. if i were you i would focus on trying to find a different job so you aren't financially connected to him. and don't let the things he says distract you from that. being in a toxic environment has the effect of convincing you that you're not deserving anything better and, for work, not qualified for anything better, but it's not true!

Weird how many ppl here have the same problem (count me in, big time!) Are little children such soul-sucking gremlins that, once they're grown, parents are just compelled to hold on as tight as they can and push them around?

uh, no. unless i am badly mistaken.

really glad i never had to deal with crap like this. my stepdad was SUPER controlling & even abusive, but one's engagement with that kind of crap is def two-way street and i drew the line very early. we wound up having a good relationship in the long run largely because we understood one another's boundaries. my mom, on the other hand, is my hero, one of the best people i've ever known. it's good to be good with your folks.

there's a lot in life that is uncontrollable, so i guess it's maybe not bizarre that parents would cling to the things they can/used to control, particularly as they age. god knows my grandmother tried to play her daughters off against each other as often as possible.

that doesn't make it any better or more reasonable, just perhaps understandable.

Right on. I certainly don't want to imply that this is elmo's fault; just seems, given how intelligent most of the people on here seem, that their parents should at least be, y'know, reasonable, reasonable enough to know that high-stakes power games are gonna end with harmful effects

Anyways, horseshoe otm itt...

elmo, you haven't really mentioned your mom's role in all of this, but i'm assuming that she generally "takes your dad's side" and/or acts like him?

Shoot. I've said many times on ILX that my own parents were ace. Always loving and supportive. Excellent role models. But humans are notoriously selfish, flawed and fallible and parenting is notoriously complex and fraught with peril. Put the two together and you get a lot of twisted parent-child relationships, despite best intentions.

To iterate, none of this is elmo's fault. He's doing pretty well under trying conditions and straightening all this out will take time, if it happens at all.

in my case i don't really think of it as intentional power games.. i think people are often just thoughtless and oblivious and insecure and don't know any better. and their own parents didn't do too well at showing them how to interact with others in a normal way?

I feel helpless reading about these situations. Control issues in my family are pretty sick so I am not one to give advice. They usually revolve around money and end up with me making vague threats involving armed self-defense. Then we go back to agreeing about who should run everything, which is me. But it takes its toll on my family's perception of my mental health.

sometimes i think my parents letting me be my own man is the one thing that set me on the right track...sorry to hear you're going through this elmo :(

Matt P otm.

I just wrote a bunch of stuff, but deleted it. All I can say is I hear ya and the steps you're taking sound like the right ones.

i was brought up to always be polite and try very hard to stop any kind of conflict from happening, since the alternative was parents yelling each other or at me.

this is a pretty big part of the equation for me, too -- i don't remember my parents' divorce (i was v young and it was also probably v traumatic) but in the following years, living between two different homes taught me to be adaptable, peacemaking, and self-soothing.

j0rd, my mom has also been quite controlling in her ways, but her means have always been religion / guilt based as opposed to financial. obviously this was very tough being closeted during highschool / college.

i don't know if i've related the story on ilx before but coming out to my parents was not voluntary -- my dad had been secretly monitoring my internet usage while i was home from college. as opposed to confronting me about it, he called my mom in to run the guilt trip on me. she eventually manipulated me into seeing a total quack Catholic psychologist who was the most horrible turd and feel asleep during our 3rd session.

Right on. I certainly don't want to imply that this is elmo's fault; just seems, given how intelligent most of the people on here seem, that their parents should at least be, y'know, reasonable, reasonable enough to know that high-stakes power games are gonna end with harmful effects

Hmm, I don't know about that. It seems to me that highly controlling, emotionally manipulative people are often very intelligent.

elmo, i'm with you as someone who has gone through this sort of thing... more with the mom than the pops. a lot of this is already documented on gay threads and so on. just know that once you give them double middle fingers, it will be bad for a while, then they'll come around.