Thread for bilingualism in the USA

I noticed that ILX does not have a dedicated thread for bilingualism and related topics so I made one. I am specifically interested in bilingualism in the USA because (1) it is interesting, (2) many native English speakers are already living in a thoroughly bilingual atmosphere and we are approaching official diglossia among some growing demographic groups and (3) so many people seem so afraid of it.

So let's talk about bilingualism.

that'll be me, soon enough

I have two tongues

"La Lechera"

For example: today I was listening to an English language top 40 radio station and I heard a commercial for the Ford Fiesta that code-switched what seemed like a dozen times between English and Spanish. Later I was listening to a Spanish top 40 station and I heard another ad for the Ford Fiesta and it was all in Spanish aside from the words "in" and "out" -- referring to features of the car -- and then I found this: http://adage.com/article/hispanic-marketing/messaging-needed-reach-majority/144536/

That fact that African-Americans and Hispanics are two of the largest consumer groups in the small-car segment and also heavy users of social media like Twitter, Facebook and YouTube hasn't been lost on Ford Motor Co. This year it rolled out "Ready Pa' Tu Mundo" ("Ready for Your World"), a social-media, digital and web platform for the 2011 Ford Fiesta that focuses on young, bilingual Hispanics between ages 18 and 34. Unlike some previous efforts, "Ready Pa' Tu Mundo" understands that young Latinos move comfortably in both languages, are heavy users of social media, and might be watching Univision or CNN, and they download -- and upload -- videos on YouTube.

"absolutely clean glasses"

:]

working in the software industry is fascinating; my office currently employs many people for whom English is not their native language (the gamut runs through Russian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Cantonese, and some cross-section of the languages spoken in India)

Especially with my ex-wife we used to go from French to English and back and forth all the time

feel like the chances of those young, bilingual hispanics passing it on to their kids is pretty low. I mean, they're a huge demographic and it's an interesting subject but it's still going to be a transitional demographic unless we do more to promote 2nd gen people keeping the language in the family. but it's hard and historically doesn't tend to happen.

pretty much every hispanic I know who is in a "mixed race" family is trying to pass Spanish on to their kids. some of the moms only speak in Spanish to the kids while the dads speak English. when I have kids it will probably be the same way. the kids tend to understand it well but don't usually want to speak it, which is understandable.

good luck, EE.UU.

my brother married into a Cape Verdian family; they are teaching him Creole and Portuguese

xp - That's how it is at my workplace. Constant code switching, in all kinds of different environments. There are some patterns to it, though.

Most of the young Hispanics that I teach are really strongly attached to Spanish and want their kids to speak it too. It's the reading/writing (writing in partic) that is challenging. So. many. spelling. errors.

My four-year-old daughter corrected me the other day that the Spanish word for a light purple color is violeta and not morado like I was saying.

Just out of curiosity, she use the Spanish v or English v?

I love the term "code switching"

She says it the Spanish way, since that's the way the toy she learned it from said it.

I was trying to correct her at first -- "No, Boletta isn't the right word…"

Interesting! I think this is all way new for most USians, particularly ones who grew up outside of large diverse urban areas. (Even though I took Spanish classes from kindergarten through college, I didn't hear a native Spanish speaker in person until a guy from Costa Rica transferred to my high school)

there's a few Hmong people here who speak their language and it's always funny to hear them switch into English for words that their language apparently doesn't have, like "computer"

Also yesterday Obama visited Puerto Rico, the first time a president has done this since KENNEDY. WTF.

Also of note: ubiquity of Pitbull

there's a few Hmong people here who speak their language and it's always funny to hear them switch into English for words that their language apparently doesn't have, like "computer"

― frogbs, Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:20 PM (11 minutes ago)

Where are you from?

I love watching futbol on the spanish channels because their announcers always make silly puns instead of acting serious and analytical like english-speaking announcers do.

Then again I probably just don't understand them when they get serious and analytical.

xp Wisconsin

My sister, who is of Cuban-American descent, and her Ohioan husband (who speaks halting but perfect Spanish) speak to their daughter in Spanish, assuming (correctly, in my view) that she'll pick up English in school and from watching TV soon enough.

I knew a Franco-American family in high school who spoke only French at home (even the American father) but English outside of it - they were very fluently bilingual.

My college buddy married a Mexican woman, and their two kids are bilingual.

In my home, we call pacifiers "dubbers."

my ex-gf's dad grew up on new caledonia (but was not a native...irish-american dad and japanese mom) and i guess spoke to her in french a lot when she was a kid just because he thought being bilingual would be useful. she's fluent in it now, and has easily picked up spanish and is p proficient in arabic.

Speaking of "picking it up in school", not that I disagree with Alfred *at all* but depending on your niece's school she may or may not have a teacher who has any idea how to teach language (as opposed to course content). This is something that worries me. Just because someone speaks a language (say, English) does not mean that s/he is going to have the skills to teach that language to someone else even if the student is young and eager to learn.

It's not that kids won't turn out ok -- they will -- it's that I worry about policy implications, and someone in power (who knows who) enacting sweeping "educational reform" based on bad science because Americans, for the most part, are not very well educated about language learning (in addition to being mostly monolingual themselves).

Speaking of "picking it up in school", not that I disagree with Alfred *at all* but depending on your niece's school she may or may not have a teacher who has any idea how to teach language (as opposed to course content).

A legitimate fear! I hear you. Luckily she'll have me! (at least for a while)

m/l people will speak whatever language they need to get by, in areas where there are lots of diff languages spoken people will speak them, like i was just in the indian himalayas where theres a diff language over every ridge and everyone there speaks like 5-7 languages, in areas where theres just one language people tend to just speak that, bilingualism to the extent it exists in the usa is almost an entirely immigrant phenomenon and by the time the third generation rolls around kids tend to speak the language of their grandparents infrequently poorly or not at all, its just not necessary

to frogsbs:

The word Wisconsin originates from the name given to the Wisconsin River by one of the Algonquian speaking American Indian groups living in the region at the time of European contact.[3] French explorer Jacques Marquette was the first European to reach the Wisconsin River and record its name, arriving in 1673 and calling the river Meskousing in his journal.[4] This spelling was later corrupted to Ouisconsin by other French explorers, and over time this version became the French name for both the Wisconsin River and the surrounding lands. English speakers anglicized the spelling to its modern form when they began to arrive in greater numbers during the early 19th Century. The current spelling was made official by the legislature of Wisconsin Territory in 1845.[5]
Throughout the course of its many variations, the Algonquian word for Wisconsin and its original meaning have both grown obscure. Interpretations may vary, but most implicate the river and the red sandstone that line its banks. One leading theory holds that the name originated from the Miami word Meskonsing, meaning "it lies red," a reference to the setting of the Wisconsin River as it flows by the reddish sandstone of the Wisconsin Dells.[6] Numerous other theories have also been widely publicized, including claims that name originated from one of a variety of Ojibwa words meaning "red stone place," "gathering of the waters," or "great rock."[7]

Wonder how "funny" Algonquins would think your pronunciation of Wisconsin is...

Or how "funny" Latins would think English-speakers pronounce "Computare"...

etc.

Nothing funny about it tbqf.

He didn't say their pronunciation was funny.

yeah loan words are kind of funny and exciting to hear in a stream of other words you dont understand

True, but the point is that the idea that there are "our words" vs. "their words" is problematic. Especially once you falsely determine words are "English" in origin... reeks of hierarchical prejudice.

bungalow is a hindi word i learned this recently

pajamas too

my only stated goal when i went to college was to leave bi- or tri-lingual. accomplished neither. would love to actually juice up my french to "conversational" status, but it's so frikkin hard to find time for that. and am thinking i'll actually ~need~ to speak a little spanish in my practice

there's nothing "funny" about a wikipedia text dump, i'll tell you that

Also I'm not sure it's loan words so much as code switching. It would only be a loan word if everyone who spoke Hmong acknowledged that "computer" was the word for a computer. Taco is a loan word because there is nothing else to call a taco in English -- a taco is a taco.

reeks of hierarchical prejudice.

Still funny, though, though mostly from the juxtaposition of unintelligible to very familiar words.

Great thread here:

Speaking Spanish when it's not require

Perhaps, too, it's funny because his (bilingual) Hmong colleagues have left the pronunciation of computer as an English loan word instead of just incorporating it into Hmong and pronouncing it as such.

i just realized that i don't know how to say a lot of mexican food in english!
"may i have a flour breadlike wrap filled with beans and vegetables and possibly meat please? i have heard many wonderful things about the flour breadlike wrap filled with beans and vegetables and possibly meat that come from the city named for saint francis of assissi."

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:33 PM (6 years ago)

that is actually a verbatim quote from AdamRL!!!
― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, February 3, 2005 4:44 PM (6 years ago)

I have mixed feelings about that thread.

What's perhaps hierarchical is that we are curious about bungalows and pajamas and amok but less so from the myriad words we've stolen from Dutch or Italian or Spanish or French or even Arabic.

I looked at the Arabic -> English loan word wiki page and it was basically never-ending.

I asked one of them about that and they said that apparently there is not really a translation for "computer" which I was honestly surprised by. Had not even considered that they may have been using the Alquonian form of the word.

CRAZY DRUNK GIFS: the failsafe ilx method for learning any language

I was desperately searching for a french gif to post but china's firewall blocked me

Almost said "on a d'autres chats à fouetter" but that means something different

gifs are basically just a kind of hi-tech flashcard

lol james that expression has always just been like... ??? to me. i mean frying fish, sure, i can see that. people fry fish. but..

aw, this thread made me think of "French in Action" for the first time in ages

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pvMMr4G_E

In many scenes in French in Action, Mireille appears sans brassière, in the same way as Stéphanie, her character from the 1985 French film À nous les garçons. This generated some controversy at the time and was condemned as sexist by three female students at Yale University.

theres an amazing tv station on ny cable for learning english and american culture, a bunch of the shows at first just look like a standard lo-budg sitcom but then yr like why are they being so pedantic where are the jokes why are they going back and reviewing the episode, its p funny

sounds like something LJ would enjoy

It might stick out more in Scandinavia because there's something about Scando languages that just "fits" well with English intonation. I've been told that Swedish movies, for instance, are some of the easiest to dub into English (and vice versa).

Swedish to me sounds like someone from Minnesota speaking English in another room.

it says a lot that i find videos of english/american people speaking another language not just noteworthy but actually kind of funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRi39Ia3njQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcHlXNFpr-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A68D0gYxnro&NR=1

"PANDERING IN MANDARIN!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk4nlgW_2gk

xp - Kinda freaky because of what she's saying (amenazada por el comunismo, etc), but I appreciate her effort. Her "noviembre" is fatal, though. Que viva Kennedy!

PP, to me Swedish sounds like mumbled Italian. Always this sense of dismay at the end of a sentence.

I spent two months in South America a couple months ago and I was amazed at the number of American/English people i met who'd been staying there for 4-6 months and yet hardly spoke any spanish. They kept telling me that english was enough to get by (which also sounds weird cos the few times i tried english, it proved useless). Also the fact that they didn't speak any spanish while telling me that they couldn't believe i was french because i spoke v good english and that "french people are so terrible at english lololol stupid frenchies" was boggling. Tho it is true french ppl are terrible at english, which, as someone pointed upthread is due to the way it is taught in schools. The english teachers i had were all French, knew everything there was to know about english grammar yet had horrible accents. On a few occasions they'd even turn to me to check how something was pronounced, which, when you're a 15 yr old student is hilarious.

I'm surprised the dems were making ads/campaign speeches for Latino voters in the early 60s. Where would that have been shown?

Kinda menacing too, "My husband's firm hand will guide us from the red menace"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gerq4GpHpKw

This possibly unreliable you tube video claims that it was from a Kennedy visit to Bogotá? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azYZDWnA-xI&feature=related

Venezuela clip in color and much longer!
(skip to 4:53) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnYTLqhrZEs

i had the rosetta stone for polish and spent a good deal of time with it before i traveled to poland three years ago. i lent the discs to my friend, who subsequently lost them (and that shit is NOT cheap), so i haven't practiced basically at all since, but i still remember certain words/phrases/sentence constructions from that brief time period i was using it. so i am pro-rosetta stone and would like to get one for another language someday, but as i've said, $$$$$

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqAFO7RJeg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389319/No-speak-English-No-service-sign-leads-Reedy-Creek-Diner-restaurants-sales-TRIPLING.html

It was put up after a group were offended because staff could not speak Spanish.
But Mr Simons said: ‘Everybody's money is green as far as I'm concerned. It’s a communication thing. Nobody here speaks another language other than English.’...

In fact, the sign has received so much attention that he has added a list of additional languages and makes photocopies for customers wanting to take one away.
The sign was originally in Spanish, French, Russian, Irish and German, but Mr Simons said he put it up because of an issue with a group of Hispanic customers.
Now he claims to have even had visits from people speaking foreign languages who come along with an interpreter.
One of the positive messages of support he has received said: ‘A common language is a unifier - you did nothing wrong, Mr Simons. Best wishes to you!’

Hispanic or Latino people make up 8 per cent of North Carolina's population, and last year’s 111 per cent increase was the state’s biggest ethnic group rise in a decade.

‘I'm saddened by the fact that someone might want to see a negative than a positive it's just how you look at things,’ he said.

No. No, it is not just how you look at things. What's with the concern trolling, seriously??? "I feel really sorry for all of you who are so NEGATIVE all the time. Can't you just look on the bright side of racism for a change?? :) :) :)"

for the record i do not believe his sales have tripled, or trebled

Neither do I.

"trebling" is not even a thing afaict

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-benefits-of-bilingualism.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share

email with a pictured flyer I just received from a Hispanic danceclub, says in part:

Jueves: Bachateros y Perreo Ladies Night

I believe the hypothesis here but "shape game" and "puppet game" seem to be shaky measures of intelligence

^ sockpuppet

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/learning-the-language/2012/08/new_law_makes_new_york_second_.html?cmp=ENL-CM-NEWS2

http://www.strath.ac.uk/press/newsreleases/headline_643421_en.html

lol pop sci, etc. but you know, BILINGUAL PEOPLE DO IT BETTER

this is based on nothing but speculation and heresy on my part as ive never given a serious attempt to another language but one thing i feel will really help is if theres a bar you can go to and get drunk and speak to people in the language youre trying to learn

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

I would also recommend talking to children. Children have a smaller vocabulary than adults, and their vocabulary consists of the most basic and elementary words. Also, they don't judge you when you mess up, or if they do, you probably won't care. Even better would be to talk to children while drunk, but that might get you arrested.

My native Gujarati-speaking boyf is always talking on the phone to other Gujus around me, and sometimes I feel all proud of myself for kind of understanding what he's saying, but then I realize it's only because he's interspersing a lot of English words. He says "problem" a lot.

His r'ship with English is interesting. He went to convent (English-medium)school in India, and has kind of worse grammar than I would expect (like, lots of subject-verb agreement issues), but otoh he'll totally bust out words like "bifurcate."

Not being critical of his lack of English fluency, btw. He's managed to accomplish far more in this world using English than I have. All my bilingual friends kind of make me feel like a lazy, privileged ass.

I don't know if this will embed properly or not, but this is the line at Chicago's Navy Pier yesterday
It's all of the students lined up to receive DREAM act benefits. The line took 30 minutes to walk from one end to the other.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/47608251?title=0&;byline=0&portrait=0&color=b30000" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

well ok
anyway, you get the point

Cool US Census map of where English is not the primary language spoken at home http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/language/data/language_map.html?eml=gd

I'm always suprised that there's as much French/German/Polish in the US.

LL I think you would be interested in this article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/learning-chinese-to-fix-the-language-barrier-that-leaves-parents-and-son-near-strangers/2013/10/22/f2438c1a-fb7f-11e2-8752-b41d7ed1f685_story.html

Will read, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(TV_channel)

Fusion's target audience consists mainly of millenials (roughly the 18-34 age bracket), a group generally regarded as digitally fluent and normally favors social media and internet sources to gain news and base opinions, usually eschewing traditional broadcast and print sources. To that end, Fusion gears its programming less towards the constant coverage of breaking news, instead emphasizing context and analysis on news and issues, along with interviews, documentaries, and long-form reports on current events, lifestyle, and pop culture.[5] Fusion also employs an on-air blending of serious topics and discussions that is, more often than not, laced with irreverence and humor (a "common language" among millenials according to host Alicia Menendez) that aims to reduce the air of pretense and seriousness with which other news outlets treat current topics and issues.[11] The "fusion" of seriousness and lighteartedness has been evident in Fusion's primetime: America with Jorge Ramos, in its first week alone, has taken a more conventional approach, featuring interviews with President Barack Obama and United States Senator Ted Cruz,[14] while Alicia Menendez Tonight has featured more personal and less serious topics, and programs including No, You Shut Up have ventured towards irreverence and even satire.[13]
Fusion was originally conceived to primarily attract a younger audience of an English-speaking Hispanic and Latino American background; about one-fifth of millenials are classified as being of Latino descent[11] and have generally been well-acclimated with English language society in the United States, either as emigrants or as US nationals by birth. After receiving some backlash during development over concerns that too much of a focus was placed on ethnicity, Fusion would broaden its scope during its development, aiming to "engage and champion a young, diverse and inclusive America," regardless of cultural or language background.[6] Isaac Lee, who serves as Fusion's CEO in addition to President of News for Univision, has stated that Hispanic millenials see themselves as part of the broad American culture and that "they want to be part of the same room and part of the same conversation" as non-Hispanics.[5][15]

Thought Fusion was Boston fan mag in which teenage Jonathan Richman (misspelt "Richmond") declared his undying love for The Velvet Underground.

welp now it's a network aimed at latinos
quite an editorial leap, but hey anything can happen!

http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/bilingual-advantage-aging-brain

http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-do-you-speak-american-mostly-just-make-up-words

Presumably, the nascent American government didn't intend to use any of these American Englishes in official communications. But already Americans had a reputation for using English more flexibly than British people.

Residents of the United States hung on to words that dropped out of British English: guess, gotten, cabin, junk, molasses. We also began using words lifted from native languages—maize, canoe. But, mostly, Americans would just make words up. Thomas Jefferson, who described himself as "a friend to neology,” created the word "belittle." British writers despaired over it; he simply made up more.

USA! USA! USA! USA!

it's funny to me how France people are shocked to meet an American who speaks even just two languages. I have to explain how heavily Latino the population of the USA has become, and they're amazed. they think the USA = NYC (and maaaaaaybe LA) so I don't know why this is so shocking.

for some reason US citizens do not have a great reputation abroad.

otoh low expectations are easier to hurdle

it doesn't hurt

tbh now that I am trilingual (inc. French) I get the bennies of being American too, not just the "haha George Bush guns hot dogs" mockery