How Perfectly Goddamn Delightful It All Is: Vote for Your Favourite Documentaries

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Details below.

Sometime in the next two weeks, please send me a list of your 10 favourite documentaries (making the deadline Thursday, Aug. 4). Depending upon how many ballots come in—I’m hoping for at least 25—I’ll count down the Top 25 or so on this thread. Until then, use the thread to talk about your favourites, I guess, but don’t post any lists yet.

Define documentary how you want. If you’re the only person who votes for something, it probably won’t matter anyway. If two people decide something’s a documentary, it probably is.

I’ll use the Pazz & Jop scoring system. You have 100 points for your 10 picks; assign them however you want, with 30 the maximum and 5 the minimum. If your ballot is unranked, each film gets 10 points.

Here are three good lists of 100 documentaries to refresh your memory:

http://movies.sky.com/gallery-100-best-documentaries

http://1linereview.blogspot.com/2010/10/cfbs-100-favorite-documentaries.html

http://www.documentarystream.com/top-100-documentaries/ (box-office)

E-mail your ballot to sayhey at rocketmail dot com (or click on my username, which will get you to the same place eventually). Because there’ll be some picks that are unfamiliar to me, the only thing I’d ask is that you double-check titles so I don’t have any trouble figuring out what you’re voting for.

The documentary ballots are roll--well, we're off to a slow start. Everyone is locked in their house, trying to watch as many documentaries as possible before the deadline. I'll bump this every couple of days as a reminder.

I'm seeing the Conan doc tonight. It's directed by Marcel Ophuls, and supposedly it covers Conan's time up in Alaska befriending grizzly bears. I don't expect it will make my list, but it's supposed to be pretty good.

i will forget to do this unless the irrepressible buoyancy of this thread coerces me. to lazily manufacture some discussion: can i include surely-categorisable-as-an-essay-film LA Plays Itself in my list, y/n - &, to agitate, why would you not include it in yours. also, what else should i try to watch in the next few weeks that'll make my list? i've never seen king of kong, hoop dreams, routine pleasures or hotel terminus.

i will also rep hard for gates of heaven, & hope it makes the list - i'm with ebert on thinking it one of the best things ever.

I now see the point of a nominations thread, which always kind of escaped me before. I've opened up the thread where I hope to post results in two weeks, and beyond bumping it every couple of days with a dryly fabulated post about all the ballots pouring in, I don't know how else to manufacture interest.

Los Angeles Plays Itself is definitely a documentary to me, and if I remember correctly, it topped a lot of year-end documentary polls. (Just last night, I found out from a friend who'd interviewed Thom Andersen that he's in his 60s or 70s--I had just assumed he was much younger.) King of Kong and Hoop Dreams are excellent--if I did an expanded Top 20, they'd both be contenders for the second half of the list. I've never been as big on Errol Morris as most people. I just bought a clearout copy of Vernon, Florida a few days ago; Tabloid hasn't gotten an opening here yet. Of the half-dozen I've seen, I probably liked The Fog of War best. I think you'll find a bunch of ideas if you scroll through the first of those three links I posted above.

weirdly i have been watching nothing but documentaries for the last few months. will vote in this.

By the way, I think Charles Crumb would have loved "the irrepressible buoyancy of this thread."

i will probably be boring and put that one featuring the dude in the opening post at number one, too.

Serious question, is this only for documentaries which had a cinema release or are we including TV docs? What about TV series such as 'Cosmos' or 'The World at War'?

^same xp. my #1 is prob crumb or maaybe capturing the friedmans. both are unassailibly great imo

love gates of heaven; ive never seen hoop dreams either

To Be and to Have
Eyes on the Prize
Cane Toads
Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work <-- i genuinely think this is a film for the ages, and will look totally fascinating in they year 2050 or 2150

I will very likely include something from PBS's American Masters series; I think it got a brief theatrical run, too, but I probably would include it regardless. I'm just leaving it up to anyone who votes to decide what should or shouldn't count.

I thought the Joan Rivers film was oddly one of the best getting-old films I've ever seen; you could double-bill it with Tokyo Story or The Straight Story.

do you want directors, year-of-release, etc. or just the title?

Just the title should be enough, and I can fill in the rest from IMDB. The only instances where I might have to check back with you would be something really obscure.

haha well my list is looking grade-a boring BEST DOCS OF ALL-TIME LIST so i dont think that'll be a problem

I think 10 is not enough really. I'd say 20 for an all time poll would be better, but I'm not tallying it at the end of the day.

I'd be glad to tally lists of 20, so if you want to send in that many, please do. I made it 10 because I thought 20 would scare off people who don't see that many documentaries, and I wanted to get as many ballots as possible.

I could go either 10 or 20, but it's gonna be hard to keep it gay-only for the latter.

I'm opening up the voting to non-gay documentaries too, so that's okay.

I will very likely include something from PBS's American Masters series; I think it got a brief theatrical run, too, but I probably would include it regardless.

PBS is a whole well of unexplored content to me; particularly keen to see the farmer's wife, someday (in part because of the great sub-school of midwestern & americana-focused docs, like malle's god's country, demott's seventeen, &c, which'll be on my list).

Just last night, I found out from a friend who'd interviewed Thom Andersen that he's in his 60s or 70s--I had just assumed he was much younger.

andersen is real interesting from what i know; if ever you see his filmography, or the listings for the usually comprehensive retros of his work, you get a list of three docu features & a bunch of formally experimental shorts, the shorts from the fifties & sixties, the docs starting in the eighties on. i'd love to get a bit deeper into his 'work', outside of the films - again, the listings for retrospectives of his work have always seemed real interesting, included talks on deleuze &c&c.

still feel like the broad church of 'documentary' could be kicked around some more. what about something like perfumed nightmare, which is in part re-enacted or staged i think but which i think you're mainly watching so mindful of the conceit of the film that you're accepting it as fact. or zhang-ke's work, &c.

i've been meaning to see shoah for years; any thoughts on that one?

Intermittently gripping.

If anyone deserves pummeling it's Nazi collaborators but my moral sense kicks in after a while -- not to mention my aesthetic one.

I reluctantly left Shoah a couple hours into it. Nothing to do with the film. It was a Sunday, it started sometime around 1:00, I was kind of tired that day, and I had marking to do when I got home. I started to drift for a while, and eventually decided that this was crazy, I'll save it for another day. If I hadn't had the marking waiting for me, I likely would have stupidly stuck around and slept through an hour of it. (Same story for Lav Diaz's Melancholia.) I hope and assume Toronto's Cinematheque will screen it again somewhere down the road.

I don't know Perfumed Nightmare. From your description I'd say not a documentary, but then a lot of Man on Wire is restaged, and I and seemingly most everyone else thinks of that as a documentary. So again, I'll leave it up to you. If just you vote for it, I don't think it would get enough points to place; if you and someone else decide it's a documentary and it places, I won't complain.

Also, if people do want to vote for 20 films, does 100 points for the first 10 (as outlined above) and 5 points each for 11-20 sound okay? (One person has sent in a ranked list so far; I could just solicit another 10 from him.)

God this is such a broad scope. the Seven Up series comes to mind for me immediately but looking thru some of those list links there is so much to choose from.

28 Up was the first one I saw, and it had a huge effect on me--actually, the first documentary I ever loved, largely because of Neil's story. I kept up with the series through 35 and 42, but lost touch after that.

I watched all seven of them in a week or two. It was a very strange feeling to watch them age and change in such an abbreviated time span.

I was very glad to see Neil had gotten it together by 42.

Yeah same here, he was always the one I felt for the most.

oh wow yeah, 7 up is something else. one of the striking things about seeing the programmes now is the dovetailing between the rise of thatcherism & the marginalisation of neil. i was v fond of the scientist, who moved to america, & moved by the path of the woman with the three cute kids who was living on an estate somewhere in the north or in scotland, iirc. the whole thing also does touch on both the constraints and limits of documentary, all while seeming totally fully-formed & adequate - like despite the fact that you are getting an update every seven years, the narrative seems connected. there's the woman who was kind of a rich kid (whose dog you see eat a rabbit?), who talks of the psychic pain of having to see the narrative of your life framed immutably through the footage, & the public school kid who stopped participating ... to become a documentarian. always mad at that kid.

out of curiosity, trayce, was its broadcast a prominent thing in australia? it's one of those things i was surprised to hear a friend in adelaide speak of with as much familiarity as i would, on account of it having been sorta a cultural event through her life. (the australia angle is also interesting because of the kid who you see first in a carehome, nervous & stuttering, & who you next see galloping along the golden white sands of an australian beach astride a unicorn, the quality of life being kinda higher for him there).

i had a dumb idea a while ago, testament more to the anal way i categorise things than to anything about the documentary form; but i thought that between documentary and film, there are so many extended key works, per country, that you could have a long-term project of following a bunch of narratives as a way of thinking about places; so shoah or heimat for germany; historias extrordinarias for argentina; the best of youth for italy; 7 up or our friends in the north for the UK; west of the tracks for china etc, the farmer's wife for the states, etc. i felt like it could be a year of viewing.

&, documentary or not, v much recommend perfumed nightmare, as a beautiful example of democratic, creative cinematic language-making as much as documentary or whatever. one of herzog's favs i think.

I cant speak for how long ago it was a thing here, but I was certainly aware of it as far back as the very early 90s as a thing here yeah.

Just found this photo collage of Neil through the years:

http://documentarystartshere.blogspot.com/2010/10/michael-apted_21.html

The fourth picture working down gives you a good idea of where he's at in 28. Charles Crumb reminded me of Neil in 28--you're haunted by both long after you've seen the films.

Heard great things about the new Fishbone documentary, of all things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChXk4R0mGNw

Offhand, I can only think of one music-related film that will make my top 20 (probably top 10), and one other that's a possibility. I've liked a few, though, especially the Ramones, Daniel Johnston, and Stephin Merritt docs. Concert films, not nearly so much.

yeah i am trying to limit myself to one or two music docs because it'd be too easy to fill up the list otherwise, since i've seen far more of them over the last 20 years than any other sort.

getting down to 10: very hard

also very hard not to include 5 by Frederick Wiseman

i can imagine including don't look back; that it's musical is secondary as it's mainly such a great character piece, of numerous characters. ditto cocksucker blues, which is a beautiful tapestry of an era. sure there's some more.

bravo morbs on watching five wisemans. it's probably an effective choice for top tens, as it leaves you with like forty hours of content.

a friend of mine has seen i think every wiseman film except one or two

this is gonna be super tough because ive seen a lot of great docs that didnt stick in my mind like they should... its easier to summon up memories of Great Movies whose greatness is always being reinforced culturally, than of some awesome little doc that was on HBO 17 years ago or w/e

new york doll is a cool music doc

Totally forgot about the Arthur Kane film--that would be a second-10 contender for me too. One Wiseman will be my #1, another would contend. No matter what kind of poll, though, music or film, I usually stick to a one-per rule. Wiseman is the only director where I'd have to think about that here; others would have that issue with Errol Morris, I imagine, Herzog, maybe even the guy with the hat. (Truthfully, I don't expect Moore to do all that well here--could be wrong.)

Actually, it won't be my #1, wasn't thinking. Close, though.

Off to see the very un-Wiseman like Shampoo...

heh i had to think about 'moore' for a minute to place who you meant. roger & me is a great piece of work, i'll probably consider it. everything else by him gets the gas face

i loved moore's roger & me - again, as a kinda midwestern/americana thing* - back when i saw it, as a film as much as any sort of comment, though i don't think it'll make my list. i don't think there's anyone who i'd break a one-per-list constraint for - i feel like doing so you're probably trying to convey someone's huge range, like how in a (feature) film list both Kane & F For Fake might be worthwhile director-duplicates on account of how different they are (or w/Malle or w/ever) - i guess herzog would count.

totally intrigued to hear what your wiseman pick is - i think the thing that's holding me back from getting around to watching more of them is that i see them more as a body of work rather than individual highlights (i have the manageable high school that i'll probably press on with soon).

* there's a sub-genre of this category that some of moore's other stuff fits into, here, of kinda toxic-americana docus, whereby extrapolating outwards from the film would lead you to have a horrific vision of the states, in which all citizens sleep with a gun under their pillow, in which every character of a portrait of a man who lived with bears is crazy, etc

When We Were Kings. Went into it not knowing/caring shit about boxing, came out a stone Ali freak. Must've watched it over 100 times. I find it endlessly fascinating and, even knowing the outcome, thrilling.

I saw that film at Radio City Music Hall w/ Ali onstage afterward.

I would put M Moore in the 'essay' category rather than docs. Which makes me wonder what to do w/ The Gleaners & I.

bcz it's fresh in my mind I wd probably lean strongest toward Hospital among the Wisemans. (I actually haven't seen all that many, I think 5 or 6.)

Emile de Antonio? I wd probably take In the Year of the Pig over this one:

http://thefilmarchived.blogspot.com/2010/08/making-of-millhouse-white-comedy-film.html

hospital will probably be my wiseman too, but i may vote for high school, probably because i had the strongest initial reaction to it, mostly because i saw it when i was actually in high school.

I'll give you a second ballot, if that helps.

Thanks. I'm coming on here tomorrow with 20 or 30 freshman Republicans and I'm simply holding the entire board hostage until I get eight more ballots. I could count down a Top 30 right now with nothing under 19 points (and almost everything with two or more votes), but I'm still aiming for 25 ballots.

august 9th 2011: dr. morbius exercises his right to vote when he hasn't seen Harlan County USA; democracy bottoms out.

I wrote my list down, need to assign point values and i'm good to go.

Yours will be #20, C. Grissom--we're crawling to the finish line with one day to go. The list is actually pretty good as is, though. My objective in getting 25 ballots was so you wouldn't have a lot of films placing high with just one vote, and that won't happen--everything 24th and higher right now has at least two votes, with ten films having at least four. There are 176 films altogether that have received votes; the master-list will give people lots to seek out. I'm helping a friend move tomorrow, so I'll start the countdown Friday. Right now, it looks like I'll do a Top 40. If you've posted on this thread, get your ballot in! If you haven't, send one in too. (And Morbius, if you want your points adjusted, let me know.)

ballot sent via ilxmail

Just sent mine.

Got both of them, thanks. My #1 got a little bump from one of you. Jim: you can count 7 Up separately, or you can vote for the whole series--which would you prefer? (Or rather, which better reflects how you saw the films?)

Ha, that's a tricky question! I've watched them in real time from 28 onwards, but the later ones become increasingly reliant on recap footage from the earlier ones, which makes them feel weaker as standalone films. So I guess I'll choose 21 Up as my one-off favourite.

Okay--I'll enter it as a 21 Up vote.

workin on my ballot now

dr. morbius exercises his right to vote when he hasn't seen Harlan County USA; democracy bottoms out.

democracy, or dicking around on the internet.

I sent my point-laden ballot.

if i give my top two docs 30 points each, the other 8 of my top 10 have to get 5 points apiece right

Gah, I forgot about this. No time to do ranked - but if I do 20 unranked is it still 10 points each? I might actually only manage to pick ten unranked anyway.

I'm doing mine now too!!

20 unranked would work out to 7.5 (150/20) points each; 10 unranked would be 10 points each. PTT--that's right, (2 x 30) + (8 x 5) = 100. (Math teacher at work.)

Not to start doing the old Pazz & Jop demographic thing, but I'd be really glad to get some female ballots--21/21 so far from men. I think it does skew the results.

aggggh i still havent done this

well, of course; women hate list-making AND reality! xp

it would really help if netflix kept track of my viewing by doc genre - super freaked that im going to leave something out

well, of course; women hate list-making AND reality! xp

― satan club sandwich (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:33 PM (11 minutes ago)

I'm going to be charitable and assume this was a joke. Otherwise... *grumpyface*

No, he really hates women

Also, are we discounting Nanook and Fires Were Started for being big old fakers even though they're often slotted in the 'documentary' genre?

If it's a documentary to you, it's a documentary.

I just put one as my #2 that I don't think has even been mentioned yet!

Let me know that you got it Clemenza. I didn't sign the email but my username are my initials so it should be pretty obv from my gmail address who I am :)

username is my initals

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TZFKMKA3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Close?

ENBB--just got it, thanks.

How about Threads?

Threads was a docudrama, no?

Was joking about Threads, though I am tempted for the bleak lols.

I think I might be the only person repping for Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe, which makes me sad.

Good race for the second spot: 73 points/six ballots just ahead of 72 points/6 ballots.

heh i put burden of dreams on my ballot (i think) but no actual herzogs

Sent from my irl email.

ok hastily assembled and poorly thought out ballot on its way

clemenza, do you want comments with these

That's a good question...I did consider at one point soliciting a comment for each film from whichever voter had it ranked the highest on his or her ballot--I remember an ILX poll on '60s or '70s films that included comments. But I know people are busy, and you don't want to make something feel like work (much less unpaid work). I'll leave that open--if anyone does want to pick a high-ranking film or two off your list and e-mail me brief comments, please do and I'll post them alongside each film. If not, just save them for the countdown.

Sent. It's a bit rubbish, I'm afraid. A good few things mentioned on this thread that I would've loved to have watched first had I remembered/had the time.

25--excellent. Thanks to everyone who sent in a ballot. More are welcome (anything that comes in before midnight tomorrow will be fine) of course. I think I'll probably use a still for each film, and include external links for YouTube clips. I expect getting decent clips will be hit or miss, so I'd rather look for good stills. And I'll break ties by number of voters--3 voters/25 points beats 2 voters/25 points.

regretting not sending in a ranked ballot but also thinking that most of mine wont have gotten a lot of votes so it would be a waste of time.

oh hey btw are you counting paradise lost as 2 seperate entries or will votes for one count for the other - i voted for the one i prefer but would gladly shift to the other if it makes a tally difference

That's a tricky one--before your ballot, I had a combined ballot and a couple of ballots that listed one only. I split up the combined ballot into two separate votes, essentially giving that person 21 picks. I haven't seen either film, so I'm not sure if that was the right call. One of them is just on the cusp of making the Top 40.

meant to do this earlier but just sent a ballot your way.

I'm going to count down a Top 40 starting tomorrow (#40-26), then finish up on Monday (#25-11) and Tuesday (top 10). If anybody wants to send in a ballot in the next few hours, that's okay. I was thinking of putting the results right on this thread, rather that start a new one. There's been a lot of good commentary so far, so it'd be a good all-purpose thread to check if wanted to get ideas for things worth seeing.

"rather than"
"if you wanted"

(Taking applications for a personal typist.)

Speaking as a past filmpoll presenter, I think it would be better to do a separate thread for the results. It'll be easier for people to read later on (they'll have a nice shiny thread to look at instead of wading through this one to find the results).

I would agree - a separate thread for the results is always nicer.

No problem. First poll I've done--if a separate thread is standard, I'll start one up tomorrow.

An Impossible Job: ILX's 40 Favorite Documentaries

This infamous Pennebaker/Hegedus doc is showing in a new DCP, and it's credited to Janus as the distributor, so there should be a Criterion soon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_Bloody_Hall