cars and america

was just reading this piece iatee linked to

http://www.grist.org/infrastructure/2011-07-20-when-design-kills-the-criminalization-of-walking

and when I thought about how much of america's infrastructure has been built to serve the automobile, I got really depressed

and then I thought about peak oil, and I got more depressed

I think we should just blow it all up and start again

I don't know, I think to the extent that it's a design problem, it's really a matter of details on the micro level, not so much the macro design. The design flaws the article is talking about seem like a simple issue of crosswalk placement, sidewalk design, etc. Not something that would justify blowing it up and starting again.

In his book on Los Angeles, Reyner Banham does a good job of debunking the myth that Los Angeles was built around cars. All of the major traffic arteries were in place for 4 or 5 generations of different transportation before they were used by cars (dirt roads made by missionaries, trains, streetcars, etc.).

that story is unbelievable and so sad. i'm more upset about the so-called justice system than the road/car issue really.

i live in a city where walking is very common, but cars still have the right of way - i learned pretty quickly how to shoulder check when walking across the street and warn friends from out of town that crosswalks here mean nothing to drivers (unless they're in a school zone, and even then...).
i guess part of it is a design problem, but part of it is a social problem - they go hand in hand, obv.

where do you live that cars have the right of way!?

come on, american infrastructure is like 90% built around automobiles, whether some guy wrote a book about trolleys in l.a. or not and wanting to blow it up and start again is looking increasingly understandable and maybe even justifiable.

i mean what world do you live in that suburbs are NOT a macro land-use problem?

i live in montreal - i think that technically pedestrians have the right of way at crosswalks only, but i see that obeyed maybe 20% of the time at any crosswalk in this city unless that crosswalk is accompanied by a stop sign (not even joking here). if there's traffic, you have to wait and wait, which also means that pedestrian boldness is high and so most people cross the street everywhere, not only at corners. most of the streets i'm talking about aren't huge (like +4-lane) though.

i drive 10+ hours a week for work in a medium-sized metro area in the intermountain west, and beyond a relatively popular (and growing) light rail system, cars are the center of the fucking universe out here. i'd have to find the light rail numbers, but compared to car use per capita... yeah right. and we're on the "progressive" end if you're talking the intermountain west/southwest in general.

i walk (and bike) everywhere here though and think it's great and safe, but i'm also used to it, so hey!
xp

i think the "right turn on red" concept is a really bad idea... it means pedestrians have to compete with cars even when pedestrians legally have the right of way! that right of way can be as short as 10 seconds; imagine how hard that is for an elderly person or someone in a wheelchair. many cars will just barrel through the turn without waiting for people to cross, and some cars even neglect to use their turn signals.

last time i was in LA i took that bus that goes from east of hollywood to santa monica pier area and it was fine and fast enough (not rush hour) and all i could think was why the hell wasn't there a subway or skytrain (vancouver styles) along that route?? it seems perfect for it.

one of the frustrating things about neighborhoods developed in the automobile era (as opposed to being built with walking/transit/horses in mind) is how long the blocks are. encino, ca is a great example -- you have to walk like a quarter mile to get to the crosswalk and then double back in the other direction across the street to get where you're going. i don't think the transportation planners there are anti-ped, i just think they're clueless.

oh there's no right turn on red in montreal! it is the saving grace of being a pedestrian/cyclist! so much so that i can hardly believe it's a thing in other cities!

(i knew you'd be on this thread soon enough, jbr :) )

rrrobyn, when the expo line opens (later this year?) it will go all the way to la cienega, and phase two will eventually go to the beach. eventually is the key word, but it's progress.

for anyone who cares: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line_(Los_Angeles_Metro)

A lot of intersections in downtown Cleveland that have heavy ped traffic are labeled "No Right On Red" and drivers are shockingly good at adhering. I generally have very low expectations for most drivers, but rarely do I see someone run one of them.

and some all cars even neglect to use their turn signals.

fixed that for you

swear to god, I say ten hallelujahs every time I see a car properly use their turn signals

damn straight

come on, american infrastructure is like 90% built around automobiles, whether some guy wrote a book about trolleys in l.a. or not and wanting to blow it up and start again is looking increasingly understandable and maybe even justifiable.

90% based on what? Basically all of the major American cities were built prior to cars but I don't know what percentage of Americans live in those parts of the city vs. poorly planned suburban developments. I had assumed the woman in the article was in urban Atlanta but maybe that was a mistaken assumption.

But overall, yeah I think "blow it up and start all over", "90% of America is built around cars" is a lot of silly bullshit for an issue that is really as simple as "put the bus stop next to the crosswalk."

I don't think there is such a thing as 'urban Atlanta'

haha i was just looking at the website - http://www.buildexpo.org/destinations/ - that's great news!
it would be cool to see a line through hollywood and beyond, meeting up with expo line near the 604 or something, of course, but that's my own urban planning dream stuff (lol and i don't even live there)
xps abt LA

there's a crosswalk on one of the routes I use to go to the grocery store, it's pretty laughable because the speed limit on that road is 40 mph and there are no lights/stop signs before or after the crosswalk. it's just some lines painted on the road w/ a yellow reflector in the middle that says "PEDESTRIANS HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY" yeah right.

90% based on what? Basically all of the major American cities were built prior to cars but I don't know what percentage of Americans live in those parts of the city vs. poorly planned suburban developments. I had assumed the woman in the article was in urban Atlanta but maybe that was a mistaken assumption.

But overall, yeah I think "blow it up and start all over", "90% of America is built around cars" is a lot of silly bullshit for an issue that is really as simple as "put the bus stop next to the crosswalk."

the "cities" that were built before the automobile era were fairly small compared to the greater/metro areas that developed later on. most people who live in metropolitan statistical areas live outside the central city.

Basically all of the major American cities were built prior to cars but I don't know what percentage of Americans live in those parts of the city vs. poorly planned suburban developments.

the combined populations of the top 10 american cities make up like... 10% of america's total

(604? i mean 405, i was misreading)
xps xps

america's population is the 179th densest country in the world according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population

out of the top 10 cities, only 3 of them have population densities above 10 thousand per square mile - 5 of them are less than 5 thousand per square mile!

i would love love love to have a train or bus rapid transit shadowing the 405, from the valley down to the LAX area. i know metro has it on the project wishlist, but it's not one of their highest priorities. xxpost

so rather than blowing everything up and starting over, wouldn't it be simpler to move to one of our many underinhabited cities? And isn't that actually the demographic trend (suburbs losing population, cities gaining)?

sure but we should still blow it all up

wouldn't it be simpler to move to one of our many underinhabited cities?

if you want hipsters and early adopters to move to underinhabited cities, generate some jobs. you may have lost the baby boomers, but younger people are always looking for affordable urban areas, as long as there's somewhere to work.

can we start with bazookaing shitty drivers off the road? please? dibs on turret!

i know i've had the "where should we go? how about st. louis?" conversation a few times.

hmm, now that I read more about it, I think I fundamentally misunderstood right of way

if you want hipsters and early adopters to move to underinhabited cities, generate some jobs.

I don't care where anyone moves. But it would be a bit odd to me to live in the suburbs and complain that it's not designed for pedestrians while there are plenty of urban areas built pre-automobile (including the one that's considered the most notorious auto-centric city in the nation) which, as pointed out, also happen to be relatively uncrowded compared to the rest of the world.

But it would be a bit odd to me to live in the suburbs and complain that it's not designed for pedestrians

this is the point, really

also I'm not clear on the statistics behinds this but there's also the question of what kind of infrastructure is in those city centers - how much of that is residential, what kind of public transportation systems exist

yes, it's not about complaining, it's about pointing out that this is a lived reality for many, many, many people and has caused a certain way of thinking about vehicles and therefore walking and other alternative forms of transportation

and of course housing in an urban center is gonna be pricey and unavailable to a lot of folks (including the poor woman whose son was killed in the article in the op)

yeah, I'm not unsympathetic to any of that (although I will shamelessly jump on any chance to be all "rah rah LA is perfect, go cars!"). Like rrrobyn though, when I read the article I immediately thought more about issues of justice than urban planning. And then the driver's responsibility, the mother, etc. I mean it feels terrible for me to not feel sympathy for the mother, but maybe I live such a privileged life that I simply can't imagine a circumstance where I would cross a four lane divided highway at night in the dark with my child.

well to be clear this thread isn't solely about the article linked to, the article was just a flashpoint for expressing how I have been feeling about car culture in america lately

and yes, it probably does speak to your privileged life that you would never ever have to consider crossing a 4 lane highway on foot!

here's a pic of where the accident happened

http://t4america.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Marietta-crash-scene.jpg

don't think the crosswalk is shown, and were it to be shown - is there light or a stop sign there?

no, the closeset crosswalk was 1/3 a mile away

found the spot on google maps

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=austell+circle&ll=33.906372,-84.562465&spn=0.001409,0.00284&gl=us&t=h&z=19

if that stretch doesn't look like it was designed for cars then I just don't know

yes there are crosswalks with stoplights and pedestrian crossing Walk/Don't Walk lights but they're .3 miles away in either direction..

unless there's more to the story than has turned up in the articles i've found, the tragedy here is a kid was killed and the prosecutor is a dick.

Geez, people have to, and do, cross roads like that all the time where I live. We also have trams as common public transportation - trams run up the middle of roads, so when they stop at a stop, you have to exit the tram, and walk across the road to the curb. This relies on thr trust that all drivers know the road rule of stopping behind a stopped tram.

I think nothing of walking and PTing everywhere. The concept of "car or nothing" is fairly alien to me tbh.

As a complete aside I must say thank you to the op article for introducing me to the phrase "desire lines".

I don't care where anyone moves. But it would be a bit odd to me to live in the suburbs and complain that it's not designed for pedestrians while there are plenty of urban areas built pre-automobile (including the one that's considered the most notorious auto-centric city in the nation) which, as pointed out, also happen to be relatively uncrowded compared to the rest of the world.

Our urban areas built pre-automobile have been retrofitted for the automobile age and are pretty much just as unsafe for pedestrians.

so rather than blowing everything up and starting over, wouldn't it be simpler to move to one of our many underinhabited cities? And isn't that actually the demographic trend (suburbs losing population, cities gaining)?

Our "underinhabited cities" generally look like the picture dayo posted of Atlanta...relatively dense sprawl with central business districts. Detroit is not a substitute good for SF or Manhattan - moving there might get you some aspects of 'city' but it's not going to get you walkable urbanism.

Laissez faire "let people make decisions" POV ignores the fact that zoning, transit funding and other political factors create our options / lackthereof. Why does it appear that people don't want to move to broken down downtowns with highways running through them and no reliable transit? Gee...

I did not start this thread, just sayin

like bikes

live free or bike hard

My tyrant is my man Jackie down on 5th and Grant.

btw, if anyone else has any other book recommendations, please share!

a lot of the famous theory-type books seem dated to me. Donald Shoup is worth reading. Ed Glaeser is getting kinda famous but he's just a one note Chicago economist. 'Power Broker' is the best history book around, but if you like NY.

some great lesser known blogs - human transit, old urbanist, pedestrian observations

but you have to like NY*

Power Broker is a wonderful book. I read it before I got to Jane Jacobs, and it helped to provide context for what she was so disgusted with.

and I do love Neil Young (winky face!!)

not the same road, but the same city:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintamerica/reports/profiles-from-the-recession/video-dangerous-crossing-a-new-suburbia-as-economy-changes/1053/

Donald Shoup is worth reading.

donald shoup is totally worth reading -- one of the only economists i pay any attention to. he is a bit one-note; if you've read one piece by him you've read them all.

btw, if anyone else has any other book recommendations, please share!

A great automobile sociology book is Gartman's Auto Opium. Specifically focused on car design rather than road/interstate/urban highway networking, but congruent with this thread.

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/07/26/raquel-nelson-granted-option-of-new-trial/

thank god

that story is unbelievable and so sad. i'm more upset about the so-called justice system than the road/car issue really.

otm...i understand being upset about cars for whatever reason but this seems like a case of "why the hell do vehicles have the right of way??" in Wisconsin small-town police officers literally cross at red lights on foot trying to get people to nearly hit them so they can give them tickets.

they should do that everywhere

it was actually a really hot button issue around here. it wasn't as though some pedestrian got killed; they just needed to issue more tickets to keep their jobs.

ya I'm sure there aren't any road deaths in Wisconsin

In this city there hasn't been one in the last 15 years!

where do you live?

this is when small town WI cops are not covering for their friends when they get DUIs

/bitter

they did that in Two Rivers...thats not where I lived when they were doing it, but I'm close enough to know what's going on over that

I guess the point is that I can't fathom anything like this being the pedestrian's fault

nobody but a crazy racist jury thinks it is

the bigger issue is that it didn't need to happen

on the way to the post office, saw three kids at an intersection hanging out and handing out flyers for their dad's remodeling service. the two roads leading to the intersection have speed limits of 35 and 45 mph respectively. the kids were running around during red lights trying to hit up as many cars as possible. good job, dad

He's got mouths to feed, so either hire him or... win-win!

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/video-mayor-drives-over-merc-in-tank-to-clear-bike-lanes-2837507.html

I meant to bump this - in the past week have seen two mothers with children walking on the side of the highway. one of them was crossing a two lane one. the other one was walking on the, holding a toddler in her arms while pushing a stroller w/ a baby in it.

http://www.hyscience.com/god%20bless%20america.jpg

http://www.miller-mccune.com/business-economics/saving-gas-via-underpowered-death-traps-34722/

bizarre mismatch of headline and article in dayo's link

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/place-conscious-transportation-policy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/gas-tax-aversion-is-tying-congress-in-knots/2011/11/08/gIQA5qrt1M_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/17/2507333/at-planned-miami-beach-condo-cars.html

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news%2Fcrime&id=8489793

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/housingcomplex/2012/03/21/park-it/

all of that is true for nyc outside of manhattan too

Is it?

long island city is the only exception at the moment, tho there's talk of reform:
http://www.streetsblog.org/2012/03/12/reforms-to-parking-minimums-on-the-table-for-many-nyc-neighborhoods/

wow, had no idea about parking minimums. Seems silly. My building has like 12 spaces for 32 apartments (for extra money) and maybe half of them are taken?

at the same time, finding street parking isn't easy in east wburg, so people w/ cars in the neighborhood will get out their pitchforks when real reform seems like it's on the table

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/business/media/to-draw-reluctant-young-buyers-gm-turns-to-mtv.html

Today Facebook, Twitter and text messaging allow teenagers and 20-somethings to connect without wheels.

haha I like how their secret strategy is 'cool colors'

god marketing people are the best

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F6nxsCdXUU

hip young guns in loose jeans shaking up stodgy old company.

I want to own facebook, maybe I will own facebook if I buy a car

funny that article, tho. as probably one of the younger ilxors here, i remember the huge, unspoken incentive that you *need* a car in high-school. now just about to get out of college did it just kinda struck me that no one in my group of friends owns one any longer - myself included. gas prices, for me, was largely the reason.

aimed at “a 23-year-old who shops at H&M and Target and listens to Wale with Beats headphones,”

man, I hope that kid buys one of their cars since they've invested so much in him.

I think one of the major reason why millenials don't buy cars is that it is illegal to drive w/ beats headphones on

good point

regarding required parking spaces in new developments:
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/35/12/all_downtownparking_2012_03_23_bk.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBrooklynPaper-FullArticles+%28The+Brooklyn+Paper%3A+Full+articles%29

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/03/26/overbuilding_parking_in_chicago.html

$1600 bucks for new tie rods, springs, and cv boot

fuck cars yo