Are We In a Pre-Fascist Era?

Via commenter Bernardo Carpio:

I’ve recently been reading a lot about Hitler and his rise to power in the 1930′s. I really hope I’m wrong (especially since I’ve got a brother and a sister, and numerous other relatives in the US) but I have a gut feel that what you are going through in the USA today is what the Germans were going through during the Weimar Republic in the late 20′s and early 30′s, before Hitler took over.

An aggressive, determined, fanatical, irrational right wing. A reactionary middle class. A defeated working class. A persistently depressed economy and massive unemployment. Spineless leaders on the so-called left (right wing social democrats in the case of Germany, 99% of Democrats in the case of the US). The conditions appear ripe for the emergence of a Great Leader, and a full fledged fascist state. God help us all!

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/are-we-in-a-pre-fascist-era/

Interestingly, every single one of his comments is absolutely correct. Let us look at them one by one:

1. An aggressive, determined, fanatical, irrational right wing. This is an excellent description of the US Republican Party, and this craziness has been going on since 1980.

2. A reactionary middle class. Indeed, it was the middle class who supported the Nazis. The workers never did. The Tea Party movement, a very reactionary movement, is indeed a movement of middle class Whites.

3. A defeated working class. Yes, the US working class is indeed defeated. That is an excellent way to look at them. They are also very confused, and in many cases, they are out and out reactionary. The White working class voted for the reactionary John McCain by 30 points. Why?

4. A persistently depressed economy and massive unemployment. This is exactly what is going on, and neither party will do anything to make things better. In fact, both parties are doubling down to wreck the economy as much as possible, which is insane. Why? Ideology.

5. Spineless leaders on the so-called left (right wing social democrats in the case of Germany, 99% of Democrats in the case of the US). It’s probably best to call the left spineless rather than actually reactionary, although their behavior is reactionary. It seems that the left is terrified of the US Right and just continuously capitulates to them. And the Republicans keep pushing Obama further and further to the Right, and he caves in more to them constantly. He never stands his ground on anything, all he does is cave, and he always caves to the right, never to the left.

As far as whether this will lead to actual fascism, it is hard to say. It is not proper to call the Republican Party fascist per se as I did in my last post, however they do have fascist tendencies. The most glaring fascist tendency is their undemocratic nature.

Repeatedly shutting town the government, create a climate of hate in which threats to government officials have skyrocketed, investigating a President’s sex life, accusing a President of murder, trying to impeach a President on blatantly corrupt charges, repeatedly engaging in false investigations of the President’s administration, stealing two elections, one via a corrupt Supreme Court and another via corrupt voting machines, using corrupt corporations to install crooked voting machines across the land in order to steal more elections, disenfranchising millions of voters, using gangs of thugs to raid election halls to prevent ballots from being counted.

Those are all actions that speak of a far rightwing party that hates democracy. Far rightwing, antidemocratic parties are typically called fascist.

Oh shoot, this is Maria :D, not Rufus. I'll log in properly in the morning. Some nightmare fodder before bed....

Oh gosh.. The united states is really big, for one thing

Information flow is so different/more free; I don't think conditions are analogous.

Concepts of racial purity and such are a lot more um controversial these days

In general, people are better informed and while shit does suck for non-rich folks, it's not.. Oh I need to stfu

Personally, I have been described as “otherworldly,”, “beyond highbrow,” “one of those totally out to lunch genius types,” and “off in my own world.” I have a very high IQ, and I’m told that a lot of high-IQ folks are like this. There doesn’t seem to be much I can do about it, but it does cause me problems.

1920s German democracy was a very fragile thing, and the Army still held disproportionate influence in the country's political affairs. Those 2 differences alone are enough to ensure that you won't see a Nazi-style political coup in the US. Above and beyond that tho, the vested power interests in the US don't need a fascist government, the system you have works out perfectly well for them.

The US isn't on its way to fascism, no. Government there is too weak and chaotic, people are too wealthy to relinquish their autonomy, there's too much of a tradition of participatory democracy, there isn't a unified culture sufficient to impose a national dogma. You couldn't even produce a fascist *party* imo, the republicans are a rabble who can appear to be a coherently horrible body only if you listen to just the loudest voices. You might get narrow, intolerant governments from time to time, and the childishness of your politics and media is desperate at times, but the conditions for fascism just aren't there.

idk about the US, but i do wonder about the poor countries of europe

it's a long time since i've read about it, but the german army wasn't that strong by the early 1930s, was it?

i can see a demagogue, 'left' or 'right', rising to power on the basis of a hatred of an imposed settlement from without, in the likes of greece

in the abstract i mean -- idk what's going on there

I did think Russia was heading in that direction, which obviously wouldn't be ideal, but reading more about the place it seems to always have been too diverse, chaotic and ineffectual to tend to that particular form of autocracy.

well. russia seems to have a diabolical system all of its own. makes mussolini's italy look appealing.

the structure of the united states -- power concentrated in state and local governments as much as the federal government, and federal power divided between three distinct powers -- would make it very difficult for anything resembling a 'fascist' movement to take hold. i don't even think the tea party is 'right-wing' so much as confused and divided -- it began as a movement against bush-era policies, after all.

while the u.s. is in a pretty dreadful state at the moment, i'm not convinced that it's worse than it was, say, during the first red scare in 1917-20, or when slavery was legal.

xp, more than a little hyperbolic re: Russia.

good thread.

Yeah this is a really interesting topic, nice work maria!

Worrying sight last night: Big ol' skinhead guy walking round town centre with a "Hitler On Tour 1939" t-shirt. Not really something I'd expect or want to see only days after the recent atrocities - especially not the kind of thing you normally see in my area. If the t's meant to be some sort of joke, it's in very bad taste.

for a second there i thought rufus was a goddamn genius who was going to grow up to save us all. (he still might.)

Save us rufusmagufus, you're our only hope!

What's the quote? "The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe?"

Anyway, the US is too big, too diverse, and too many of us have seen "Red Dawn" multiple times.

^Ironic, since "Red Dawn" is sort of fascist itself. But US nationalistic tendencies tend to point outward, rather than inward.

Why would a country willing to take a chance and put a black man in the White House be on the verge of fascism? Ten years ago I would have thought that unthinkable.

I think currently the U.S. has some real problems, it is nowhere near as scary living here as it was in the immediate post-911 period (threats of economic disaster, uncertainty about homeland security).

Americans have a habit of passive acceptance in a bad economy. Fascism is an ideology people have to get out of bed to support. Most Americans don't have time for that.

the tea party is 'right-wing' so much as confused and divided -- it began as a movement against bush-era policies, after all.

Wait, what? I'm pretty sure the Tea Party wasn't a movement against Bush-era policies.

Anyway, in my darker and more pessimistic moments I do look around and see a lot of these symptoms and fear for the way the country is headed, but I do think the power is too de-centralized (not just wrt politicians - corporate influence etc etc - for good AND bad) for things to ever reach 1930s Germany level bad. Tbh, what scares me more is how many of the "defeated working class" people I know and am related to are resorting to spewing some pretty frightening shit about guns and "revolution". I'm not concerned about some widespread massive uprising, but more about a continued growh in the number of idiots with guns "taking things into their own hands".

What I meant by outward nationalism is I can imagine the United Colors of America all happily joining hands, getting along and cooperating if it was in service of, say, invading another country for personal gain.

I do think the US is as scary now as it's ever been in my lifetime, because on numerous fronts I have no faith at all the country (let alone world) my kids will inherit will be anywhere near as good as it was when I was growing up. We've been on the bring of chaos for so long now, all that pent up aggression/depression/stress will have to burst out sooner or later.

Again, generalizations in such a large country are probably facile...but Americans are raised - almost brainwashed - to reject bullying and abuse of authority.

This can have its dark side in the form of militia types. Tea Party has some uncomfortable overlap with this. People don't want to see too much government in their lives ; tea party stuff panders to that inclination.

Again, generalizations in such a large country are probably facile...but Americans are raised - almost brainwashed - to reject bullying and abuse of authority.

Anad again, also brainwashed to ignore/overlook hypocrisy. We have no problem banding together to bully others we feel are abusing their authority!

Josh otm!

OK, now I'm logged in properly. Have any of you read Jugend ohne Gott by Odon Horvath? I read it a million years ago. What prompted this thread was that lately I'm reminded of that book.

In Orange, a poor town about an hour from here, there was a big stink in the papers about a kid who supposedly wasn't allowed to hang up a drawing of a flag in school. It was during a different class besides art. He made a flag and insisted the teacher hang it up. It was disruptive and the teacher refused. The kid went to his parents who contacted the media. There were calls for the teacher to be fired and the school to lose funding because they aren't patriotic enough. Word got to a unit in Iraq who hung a flag in the boy's honor. This is the kind of thing that worries me.

I'm not scared of the state becoming totalitarian, but rather of nuts like the Norwegian guy and people who come in the store talking about the illuminati conspiracy and pro-gun, anti-science, anti-illectual, anti-immigration people banding together behind one great leader, not just in the US but world-wide. Sounds all "doom and gloom" but people are fired up and ready to band behind someone.

Yeah, but that won't happen here (U.S.). Again, irony of American craziness is that we love bringing down the people we build up. Counter productive, sure, but also fun!

Maria, that is terrible. I just looked up that flag story and the flag wasn't allowed because one of the other students was a Jehovah's witness. They don't pledge allegiance to a flag. This isn't news.

Jehovah's Witnesses are as American a religious group as any! They just have a weird belief about the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm sure you could find a Bible verse that discourages such a thing.

These little controversies are put up on the internet for anyone to judge. IMO it's kind of arrogant to comment on something that occurs in someone else's state.

the name's... Rufus Magufus

http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Support-Frankie-Girard-and-The-US-FLAG/213380445352480
8,859 people like this

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/franklin/Controversy-over-child%27s-flag-drawing
From The Dark Side · 10 weeks ago
What is this country coming too? Be proud to be an American citizen and display our National Flag! If people find the United States flag offensive maybe they need to be charged as a traitor and deported regardless if they were born here. We live in America people, start displaying our national flag and tear down all other countries flags displayed here in the U.S.

my favorite YA novel ever was avi's nothing but the truth, where a high school kid with a bad relationship w/ his slightly uptight teacher gets sent to the principal's office for refusing to stop humming along to the national anthem while it's played over the school P.A., and his decontextualized case becomes a big national Thing about the outrage of a boy being punished for singing our national anthem, and the teacher gets all this hate mail and eventually has to resign, and the kid becomes a depressed political pawn with a bedroom full of KEEP UP THE FIGHT telegrams from soldiers and a circle of friends that now considers him an egomaniacal opportunist, and eventually transfers to a private school, where at the end of the book he's greeted as a celebrity and asked by a beaming new teacher to "lead us in the singing of the national anthem -- philip? philip, why are you crying?" "i don't know the words."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jul/26/glenn-beck-norwegian-dead-hitler

'his latest comments about the "disturbing" nature of political youth camps may come as a surprise to Beck's followers in the Tea Party movement.

The anti-tax, anti-immigration movement has been holding summer camps in states including Florida and Missouri where children have been taught a curriculum based on God, the US constitution and "the defence of economic liberty"'

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

You know, I was in grammar school in the seventies and we had incidents like this, some kid wanting to be more patriotic than anyone else - "POW/MIA" "love it or leave it" angry kid post-Vietnam type stuff..

Usually it was dealt with in a saner manner - ...of course this was before cable television hype and of course the internet.

Intense american jingoism is not really the same thing as fascism, though its pretty weird in its own right

No I think you're right, these are the same kind of guys who say, "communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin".

It can provide a cover for more angry "(white) America first" types though.

I always make the "almost everyone in America is a (classic) liberal it's what they're liberal about that divides us into the Right/Left camps," so I doubt that Bonapartism or Fascism can gain much of a hold here but I see many of the big-government hating Tea Party types nonetheless perfectly willing to criminalize things and punish rigorously. The US definitely has a tradition of populist crankiness, strengthened by Southern bitterness and jingoistic, myopic intellectual laziness.

"communism and fascism are two sides of the same coin"

Culturally, American right-wingers are more comfortable w/fascism but after years of fighting with the left about the essential evils of Socialism/Communism they decided to conflate fascism and communism as being similarly evil because of their authoritarianism and tendency towards totalitarianism both of which are considered un-American.

i do like that guy who pops up every 6 months or so on WND to openly wish for a military coup

Michael, the arguments used to carry some "bite" with them..."you liberals are soft on those communist countries". And often liberals would be evasive (often justifiably so, sometimes those arguments seem disingenuous)...however I used to be frustrated that liberals wouldn't engage the anti-communism crowd.

Funny how the rhetoric has shifted from "anti-communism" to "anti-socialism". Some of those communist regimes weren't fun to live in! I mean some of these people might be casting about for something new, having spent much of their youth opposing "communism" (missing the boat on the Middle East entirely).

you could say the US isn't in a pre-fascist moment because the left is so weak there. part of hitler's rise is about the conservative establishment needing him, confronted with a (divided) communist/socialist front.

this was what i meant by vested power interests not needing a fascist government. a stable representative democracy on the whole favours the wealth-holders in a state because it acts as a brake on radical changes to the status quo. authoritarian states tend to be a desperate gamble on behalf of capitalists since they're so likely to turn against their original supporters - Nazi Germany and umpteen examples in Latin America give the lesson. authoritarian states seem to tend toward repressed anarchy which is not good for business in the long term.

i guess the other thing here is that Hitler was able to cobble together a coalition of conservative interests for long enough to establish him in power, and the feeble machinery of the German state allowed him to steamroll thru opposition once he had the Chancellorship. the US system seems to me to have much better checks and balances in terms of independence of the judiciary for example.

The proto/crypto-fascism of Napoleon and his nephew, of Boulanger and Petain and arguably about deGaulle, all partly stem from the Republic's iffy legitimacy in France. Weimar Germany's govmnt (the runaway inflation of the 20's didn't help much, either) was widely seen as illegimate in a country that had been united for only 60 years when Hitler took power. I don't think that's an issue for the US.

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/sstevenson/sstevenson0610/sstevenson061000023/592031-senior-citizen-woman-with-concerned-look-at-playground.jpg

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/opinion/sunday/seth-stephens-davidowitz-the-data-of-hate.html

article full of demographic research on st0mfr0nt users

pretty hopeless ending from harvard econ phd author:

Return to VikingMaiden88. When you read her 189 posts since joining the site, she often seems like a perfectly nice and intelligent young woman.

But she also has a lot of hatred. She praises a store for having “100% white employees.” She says the media is promoting a “Jewish agenda.” And she says she finds Asians “repulsive physically, socially, religiously, etc.”

Why do some people feel this way? And what is to be done about it? I have pored over data of an unprecedented breadth and depth, thanks to our new digital era. And I can honestly offer the following answer: I have no idea.

All of the factors cited in the OP are very worrisome, but I don't think they add up to the rise of a new Nazism and new Hitler in the USA. We can easily see atm what they do add up to, and it is not a pretty sight, but the US brand of proto-fascism comes out of a very different history and set of traditions than Germany or Italy in the 1920s. The analogy is not crazy, but it is fairly weak.

Seems the main point is that the data doesnt help identify any root causes, which is interesting.

I thought fascism meant the marriage of government and business, in which case we are definitely in a fascist era here in America!

on a long enough timescale we're always on the cusp of something shitty

heat death, ice age, L O S T revival

http://libcom.org/library/nazism-and-working-class-sergio-bologna