Mad Scheme #92: The Creative Retreat Centre

Since I'm not pregnant after all and I need to do something to take my mind off it, and various other stars appear to be aligning in interesting ways just now, I'm rolling with this creative retreat centre idea.

Since I have etiquette clearance to do so, I'm asking the ILX hivemind for input. \o/ (This is not a request for cash.)

This idea has been germinating slowly at the back of my mind for some years now. Certainly since I quit my day job and took up this dual life as a writer and banking contractor. I've needed to book creative courses and retreats to force myself to make space for my writer self, get away from the city, meet people who aren't bankers etc. etc.

I'd been dreaming of buying a house in the country, somewhere I could get away to. Not greedy 2nd home stuff, as I don't have a first home, but, well, sort of indulgent anyway. Then my dad took a look at a house I'd stumbled across, which was a massive renovation job. Too much for me, but he was interested in taking it on as a retirement project. It was ridiculously beautiful, Jacobean staircases, acres of parkland and all that. Anyway, someone bought that place out from under us, but now I'm deep into country house restoration obsession insanity.

Bringing these things together, the idea is this:

I buy a rotting country pile, with an as-yet imaginary mortgage (more on that later), and my dad helps do it up, both with his expertise in eco-friendly house renovation and with some money from his lump sum. We keep a portion of the estate as family house / holiday let, and use the main house as a residential and local creative arts centre. Ideally it would be used by the local community and also as a site for running residential courses and creative retreats for people travelling in.

The house would need to be as self-sustaining as possible so we're looking into green heating options etc. etc.

I'm a writer and most of my friends are writers, so the natural place to start is writing, but given the monstrous expense of buying, renovating and maintaining, I'd like to throw it open to all kinds of courses, provided I could get the facilities set up without vast expense. Like, cookery might be pricey to set up, or pottery kilns, or a theatre, but if the money could be raised it would be cool, and would benefit the local area more.

I'm thinking social enterprise, as making a significant profit will be close to impossible anyhow.

I would probably not be able to run it myself full time, as I'll need my income to pay the mortgage while the retreat gets on its feet, if it ever does. Or could.

There are two sites I'm considering at the moment, neither is in an ideal location:

http://www.cilgwynmansion.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

http://www.cilgwynmansion.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Photos/FrontPageFrontSm.jpg

This place is in SW Wales. It's been dropped from the £795k it says on the website to £595k. It's badly damaged. I've been looking into this one for a few weeks and I'm going to see it with a local builder on Saturday.

http://www.primelocation.com/uk-property-for-sale/details/id/SAED_313734/

http://media.primelocation.com/SAGR/SAED/SAED_313734/PHOTO_01.jpg

This one is in Scotland, Dumfriesshire, and I only found it yesterday. I know nothing about it other than what's online. It doesn't *look* like it's in such a bad state but who knows. It's further from London, but not necesarily harder to reach.

Wow, those are both beautiful places.

Obviously you know your finances and your dad's expertise in renovation better than we do, so I'm just going to assume both of those things you've thought about and are fine with, so... I think it could be a good idea. I've seen a couple of those 'old rich families don't know how to make money or look after their estate' programmes, and it seems to be the sort of thing that they are encouraged to look into to make their houses start to pay for their own repairs. I've also helped out my mum at some 'Paint-a-Pot' workshops in country parks, and they do seem to be popular (but I'm not sure about the net profit they make: she was hired to run them rather than setting them up herself).

This is a phenomenal idea. I vote for yes.

So to get round to the question part, is this utterly mad?

If it's not utterly mad which of these two pretties do you think best? There are lots of pros and cons; I will try to answer any questions.

What would you do with a building like this?

Does you have any experience of attending or even running retreats that you could share?

I'm talking to two different commercial mortgage brokers and one renovation specialist. The combination of me = contracting, house = rotting and mixed use planning permission has scared mortgage lenders silly. I don't have quite enough deposit in hand to borrow the purchase amount + the renovation monies in one go, and I will fall maybe £100k short of what I need to get started, even if the lenders give me their best-case deal. So another question: anyone got any experience of raising money on this scale? Any suggestions? I've trawled government websites for grants and loans but they seem to be on the million quid and up for new mining operations scale, or a fiver for some new stationary, not much in between.

xposts

emil.y, good points on finance and expertise. I know I can afford to take this on if I carry on contracting, don't take as much time off as I do now etc. It's a huge gamble because I could wind up with the opposite of what I want, having to work harder at the bank and less time for writing, and never seeing the place myself. And obviously there is this £100k funding gap.

Dad's expertise is based on renovating much smaller houses and although he has a lot of enthusiasm I wouldn't expect him to do it on his own; I'd appoint a main contractor.

I love the dark wood in the Wales house. I want you to do this because I am already irrationally excited about visiting.

No practical advice, but friends of mine have recently taken on a similar project in Germany and while it sounds completely insane to me they also say it's extremely rewarding.

i'm the least business-est person in the world and i can see why you are in love with those buildings but maybe you need to prioritise the business plan over the choice of location? this might be partly what lenders find scary? like maybe you need to have more clarity on the form yr business will take and then look at properties that fit the plan rather than vice versa?

ignore me if you've thought of this/if i'm being stupid

I love the oak in the Welsh house too remy! It's no beauty on the outside, but the inside has a wonderful feel.

I set up a SurveyMonkey a few days ago, before I found the Scottish house so it only refers to the Welsh one. I need a market analysis for my business plan to show the mortgage brokers. If anyone wants to do it it's at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/F3MPG5P

questino, yes, I think it is probably insane, but I'm really enjoying working it through... even if it comes to nothing I figure I'll keep chasing it as long as I'm having fun. The hard part is keeping an eye on the economic realities so I don't get caught up in it and end up in trouble!

NV I've never known you to be stupid and you're dead right. I have some basic ideas about the business plan that make both of these buildings dubious choices.

It would be a lot more sensible to buy something relatively charmless requiring little renovation and to hold out for something in a good location. My first choice was in Shropshire, very very accessible.

However, my dad won't get involved if there isn't an opportunity to eco-ise an appealing house. There's no point paying for a 'done' house and then ripping it up, and without his financial support I can't afford to anyway. So that's not negotiable.

Location-wise, I am subscribed to all the property alerts in the world and am busy making friends with as many estate agents as possible in my target areas. However, places this big rarely come up. There are about 6 others on the market that I've discounted for various reasons (even worse locations mainly) but there's been almost no turnover of properties available in the past 6 months.

Anything much smaller and I won't get enough customers in to make the courses viable.

I think NV may well be right, to be honest. Also, you need to make sure you've definitely looked into what you can and can't do with the place if you're looking for buildings that old and beautiful, as if they're listed you may have more problems if you do want to fit kilns or completely re-fit the kitchen.

I don't have experience in attending writers' retreats or anything, but my mum did used to take me around the country to pottery festivals and ceramicists' houses as a kid - I don't know if that sort of thing would be any use for input?

One of the biggest pros to the Welsh house is that it's not listed. It's residential at the moment, so I would be looking to draw up plans that meet the business plan and submit a planning application for mixed commercial and residential use.

It used to be a hotel so I think they'll look favourably, as well as the fact that this one's been on the market a looong time and will fall down very soon if nobody buys it. The roof has let so much water in already that the floors in the top floor rooms are unsafe. Which is the biggest con...

http://www.endsleighcentre.org.uk/history.html

this is a nunnery with hardly any nuns left just up the road from me. they bring in income by hosting work training days and that kind of thing. i hate work training days but it seems to me there's probably a decent market for that kind of thing that might supplement the more creative retreats from time to time? it's a similar kind of market at least

I'm struggling with the business plan because there are so many variables, and where these businesses work, they are still generally minimally profitable or run explicitly as not-for-profits. It's really easy to tweak a variable and make it massively loss-making.

Hence the survey, though it's a blunt instrument to be sure.

Weddings and work training days are by far the most lucrative options for a nice country house but so far, apart from my precious in Shropshire, nothing's available that's big enough and in an accessible location. For work especially, nobody's going to travel somewhere that's >2 hours from the nearest major city are they? The good places are super expensive.

Yes, I was going to ask if you were considering weddings. I suspect that they are the things most likely to bring in cash, but would also be the most of a ball-ache to deal with.

i guess anybody running a stately pile for public use probably wants to be as flexible as poss over events. at least weddings cd be confined to a weekend if you wanted to/were able to.

my mum did used to take me around the country to pottery festivals and ceramicists' houses as a kid - I don't know if that sort of thing would be any use for input?

Sure! I mean, I can imagine people wanting to go on week-long residential pottery courses? Pottery holidays almost? I think such things exist in the south of France and so on, and personally I think it would be aces. But I've no idea how much it would cost to set up, and would you need a resident potter or could you hire someone in on a course-by-course basis?

Also NV the problem with weddings and work days is if I'm setting the centre up as a social enterprise, weddings and work outings aren't going to fit the aims of the organisation. I'd like to explore that route first and see if it can work, and keep weddings etc. in reserve almost.

...unless it was work days for arts organisations, but they're not famous for having any money...

yeah i get you. i'd want to avoid those things too. also for aesthetic reasons.

Sure! I mean, I can imagine people wanting to go on week-long residential pottery courses? Pottery holidays almost? I think such things exist in the south of France and so on, and personally I think it would be aces. But I've no idea how much it would cost to set up, and would you need a resident potter or could you hire someone in on a course-by-course basis?

Yeah, this does happen. Whether or not you'd need a resident potter would probably depend on how many pottery courses you were going to run, and how far from the nearest suitable potter the house is. One thing I would say with pottery is that the equipment is very very expensive (much more so than for a writing or painting course), so you'd have to make a proper commitment to it if you wanted to go down that route. Although... I am not entirely sure about this, but actually, maybe concentrating on raki style pottery would reduce overheads - it's outdoor flame-pit firing rather than kiln firing... Hmm.

Um, raku, not raki.

ruh roh

Other people might know more about this than me, but maybe if you're doing a lot building work, it might be sensible to address access for less able-bodied people? Kind of thinking that if you could offer creative respite breaks, you might get some interest and possible long-term business from local authorities/charities.

Yes! That's definitely a good way to go. My mum's also done teaching for charities that work with recovering addicts, and I imagine that's a lot more rewarding than the corporate days out.

Yes yes! I had thought about accessibility but not about targeting special needs groups specifically.

You could just kit out some of the ground floor rooms for people with mobility issues.

One thing I would say with pottery is that the equipment is very very expensive (much more so than for a writing or painting course), so you'd have to make a proper commitment to it if you wanted to go down that route.

I agree -- it has been a while since I've done pottery, but even then I remember the kilns being very expensive.

Yes yes! I had thought about accessibility but not about targeting special needs groups specifically.

This would be very excellent for special needs children – a safe place to visit and be creative and do occupational therapy work, even on weekly basis.

OK, I'll have a think about that. It would point strongly towards sticking with a more populated area than going for a more rural 'retreat-y' area. For e.g. with the houses above, the Welsh one is on the outskirts of Newcastle Emlyn, a decent sized market town, whereas the Scottish one is seriously rural.

don't have any real input i just think this is an awesome idea. lately i've been indulging in fantasies about starting an artists' commune one day so this is pretty much my dream.

If everyone who thinks it's awesome comes and stays, I'll be set. :)

And if anyone wants to actually hop on board and get involved, I'm totes up for having partners. Projects like this are more likely to succeed (according to start-up wisdom) if they have a board of directors rather than one lone crazy lady. Not counting dad.

would this be something that the artists/writers would pay for, like a b&b? Or is the idea that they would be able to stay there free of charge?

As an American, I know next to nothing about your building/planning/zoning regulations. But when you say that something is "listed" is that like designated as historically significant which restricts the alterations/modifications you can do?

Folks staying would have to pay. However, if there were ever a profit, or funding could be found, I'd want to subsidise places for those on low incomes, and maybe offer some free places as a kind of award scheme. That's what the Arvon foundation does; I think they do it via donations though, so hard to emulate as a newcomer.

Oh and your interpretation of listed status is bang on.

This sounds like a great idea. One early step to take is to contact directors of other artists' retreats or similar operations to see how they managed to get/keep the ball rolling, right? Sorry if that's already mentioned upthread.

I really think that partnering with OT/educational/seniors groups is a great source of support – it'll kill any objections w/r/t a perceived 'bohemian' artistic compound, and allow for a verifiable public benefit and source of income.

would the educational programs and work w/the seniors groups, et al. be part of the creative work of the centre, or would it be separate? I could imagine there being community support/enthusiasm for the visiting artists/writers working with these groups, however, if they are there to retreat, that might be at cross-purposes?

One early step to take is to contact directors of other artists' retreats or similar operations to see how they managed to get/keep the ball rolling

Re. the community work aspect, yup, agree remy, still think it's a great idea. sarahel, it would be at cross-purposes for the retreaters, but a tutor working on a tutored retreat is working, and it should be nbd to get them to do a little work with the community on the side. It costs to bring people in, and is by far the biggest single outlay in the business plan, but it's central.

Scottish house has SOLD. The pretty ones always go the instant the price drops.

She says, based on experience of 3 whole properties doing this. But it seems the way.

Ey, I went to see Cilgwyn yesterday. It has deteriorated a lot since the pictures on the website were taken. Here are a few snaps, hope they're not too big:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6661789677_e997db266e_m.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6661812147_8e518886cb_m.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7175/6661698133_8d2999e301_m.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7149/6661649799_4bc2c96e98_m.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7156/6661485977_54009fa1a0_m.jpg

Ah, it's done the thumbnails, good. There are more at http://www.flickr.com/photos/9829776@N07.

And more yet at https://picasaweb.google.com/KeithMClarke/Cilgwyn?gsessionid=RuMsssc_cCbSQsQNxDoKIw

Oops, ignore that second link, that's not worked.

https://picasaweb.google.com/KeithMClarke/Cilgwyn?authkey=Gv1sRgCMfP1Mjg96CRAg#

There's a bit of amazing stained glass in those photos.

How much of the disrepair is structural? Do you have an idea of how long it'd take/how much it'd cost to fix up?

This one? http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6661772225_45b437e481_m.jpg

The estate agent described this window as 'Fitzwilliam family subtlety". The little corridor leading down to it goes nowhere, it's purely to showcase the window so it smacks you between the eyes when you walk into the hall.

Yep, that's the one. Awesome.

i have had similar ideas to this (involving silverton, CO) and heartily endorse it, selfishly, because i want to have something to emulate

Ha gbx, let me blaze the trail...

As far as structural damage goes, the roof beams are about 80% sound, the tiling is similar, the floors are about 50% fucked, the front elevation is falling off. No subsidence. Possible dry rot. If there is dry rot I think it's had it tbh.

I won't know about cost or time until the builder's quote comes in. Somewhere between 300 - 500k I guess, and maybe a year? Depends how much manpower he can throw at it for my budget.

I know a builder fwiw. And by know I mean am related to.

the floors are about 50% fucked

I think you mean the floor is 50% just fine!

Oh, yeah. 50% non-fucked.

gbx I have great envy!

Update: I didn't get the costings for building work at Cilgwyn back from the builder until Friday, as he has had flu (he sez). Same day, I pinged the agent and he said, oh, I meant to contact you, as the vendor has accepted an offer. Do you want to make an offer?

Of course they won't disclose the amount of the offer. I made an offer, which was not laughed out of the park, but the vendor has decided 'not to entertain other offers whilst this offer is in process', but will come back to me right away if this one falls through.

So - I think my offer was higher, but the fact that it's subject to planning permission and the lender approving my business plan makes it too much of a gamble if they have a good buyer.

Back to the drawing board. There are no other good properties on the market right now, but it gives me more time to save deposit money and build my business plan.

We-ell. This project has been tucked away for the last 8 months due to my being seriously swallowed up in work and no interesting places coming onto the market that didn't sell in a matter of weeks, not to mention my general despair at ever getting the funding together.

But... Crawfordton House has come back onto the market after the loans company that owned the site (presumably having foreclosed on the buyers themselves) went bust. The school is now being sold by the receivers. I still can't afford it, unless I can find 9 more people with a hundred grnd each who want in. Anyone? Hahahahaha.

Activity centres across the land are being closed down because of funding cuts, so although the idea of linking in to education authorities, special needs groups etc. is a great one, it's really not looking like authorities will have the money to spend.