Nabisco: Catholic Morality Answers

Here are my own thoughts on Catholic morality and the role of the laity not so long ago… all indignant outrage of a liberal who wants change… and fast damn it…
Lets look at the Laity ‘The people of God’. It was Saint Peter who said, “You are now Gods people! (1 Peter 2:10). That is the fundamental concept whereby the church interprets and understands itself. If the Church is not the people of God it is nothing.
Vatican II produced a constitution for the Church, something never before done and long overdue. The papacy remained as intact and essential as ever but the constitution began by acknowledging not the Pope or clergy but the ‘people of God ‘as the primary constituents of the church.

Chris despite your strongest desires Vatican II destroyed the absolute monarchy you so wish for. Co responsibility was the word used. Simply, the bishops consult with and listen to their people. The Pope consults with and listens to his bishops. That is how the Holy Spirit acts in the church. And that essentially is how the church will be preserved from error.
Pope John Paul II goes even further. Firstly we cannot dismiss how symbolically important it was that both Pope John Paul I and Pope JP II did away with the solemn crowning of Popes at their inauguration ceremony. They were only confirming the idea, already long dead that the papacy is a monarchy. From his book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” he makes it clear his attitudes are fully in accord to those of Vatican II. While not discounting the title Vicar of Christ he makes it clear that he sees himself as he was the successor of Peter the Apostle who sinned to the extent that he denied he ever knew Jesus. Our Pope insists that every Christian is ‘another Christ’ and every bishop a Vicar of Christ. Most importantly, and I doubt these words have ever seen the light of day around here he says: ‘On reflection christianus has greater significance than episcopus, even if the subject is the Bishop of Rome’.

In the sixteenth century Pope Leo X taught that the burning of heretics is pleasing to God or more recently in 1929 Pope Pius XI in an encyclical claimed that co-education is erroneous and pernicious and against nature.
Did those Catholics who disagreed with these rulings remain in the church? Quite possibly but this does not mean they are hypocrites. In matters pertaining to their moral conduct they regconised that there is a higher authority than the church itself. And that is there own conscience.
Let me quote the leading churchman in England in 1968…

Archbishop of Westminster Cardinal John Heenan
“the teaching of the church is very clear. A man is bound to follow his conscience and this is true even if his conscience is in error.”
There is nothing new about this. It has always been the teaching of the Catholic church that whereas the church is our objective guide in our faith and morals our conscience remains the final arbiter of our actions. Again I doubt this vital bit of information has ever surfaced here. It could be possible that some Catholics go right through life with out ever hearing this fundamental truth.

I am not denying that individual conscience stands in need of church teaching, based on Scripture, on centuries of tradition and experience and ministered by those whose authority is derived from that given by Jesus to his Apostles.
Set beside such authority, our own conscience starts to look very frail indeed. In more honest moments we would have to admit our ego and selfishness may lead us astray. We certainly need the guidance of the church.

The fact remains there is a law not in the Catechism or an encyclical but in the human heart. The judgment call at the end of the day remains with us. Ask a Galileo or Jagerstatter or Mary MacKillop.

Before Vatican II Catholics accepted each church law with unquestioning obedience, believing not to do so was serious sin.
Gene as one who was raised pre Vatican II do you still believe that it is a mortal sin to eat a meal of meat on a Friday?
Let us get inside the mind set of the era… Sister O Regan recalls her high school teaching days in the 1950’s. She recalls a questionnaire given to New Zealand secondary schools. It offered a hypothetical Catholic dilemma of coming to a serious accident on the way to Sunday Mass. To stop and give help would mean missing Mass. What they might have done given a real situation is of course anyone’s guess but faced with the theoretical question, an overwhelming majority said they would have gone to Mass.

It reveals the degree to which church laws were instilled at the expense of the law of love that Jesus so passionately commanded. Today’s church is not filled with such certainties. People wisely believe it is not wise to let institutions rule their lives without question. Human dignity is the main driver of decline in respect and authority of the church. If institutions are no longer respected or obeyed they must look at themselves. St Augustine noted every crisis of obedience is first of all a crisis of authority.

Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah, Zechariah JESUS. It was love that caused them to cry out against injustice and oppression by their leaders. Jesus himself is a model of prophetic dissent. He was loyal to the Jewish religion while at the same time its fearless critic.

I pray for our Church, now more than ever and I pray not just for a strong voice but a listening ear.

Quite simply what I used to promote was Protestantism. While I believe I raised a few reasonable points about the need to accept the changes of Vatican II, I was really avoiding the issue… There can be no half way Catholics. The church hasn’t survived close to 2000 years by staying “in touch” with society. Is happily swallowing the murder of 46 million babies worldwide each year staying “in touch”. Not for me. So the real issue…

This thread is long enough I could outline a counter argument to the liberal ones I presented but ultimately it rests on a single principle.
Mr C Butler responds….
The question comes down to whether or not the Magisterium has the assistance of God Himself. That is the issue. The Magisterium has told us that even in its discipline, it cannot present laws that are greater than human liberty can bear. The Magisterium is guided by God. And anyway, let's look at this great new world we have created by being these wonderfully free-thinking people who are so mature. It's legal now to pull the baby out to the neck in the birth canal, and, with the little arms and legs kicking in the open air, jam scissors into the back of the neck. You will tell me, "But I disagree with such stuff!" I know you do. That's not the point. The point is that such things have become more and more common, and more and more accepted by people who call themselves Catholics, because they have chosen to disregard the Magisterium's own guidelines about how we assent to the Magisterium. You see, this all becomes very basic at a certain point. The principle is as follows: "If the Magisterium is not reliable about how we are to assent to its own texts, then the Magisterium is not reliable at all." That is the principle.
In Christ, Chris

-- Chris Butler

benedict is hott!

But hotter as a paste between wafers, no? May my sins and trangressions be immortalised by you, for all, oh my dearest gershy; to dredge and bump is but a small cross to bear.

I hadnt thought about Chris Butlers for some time, he helped me out when I was struggling, I owe him so much and I regret never getting the chance to meet him IRL.

A regular contributor to the catholic forum on greenspun back in the day he was a deeply spiritual guy who was enormously kind and generous. He died a few years ago at a young age after a long illness. An inspiration to me he wrote a conversion essay in 2001 which few here will enjoy but fwiw ill post a link. May he rest in peace

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/T GOA0101dr.asp