Talk To Her

And its okay to suggest it but incorrect as your are suggesting a direct causal relation between the good and the rape, when the connection is probably more the good and the aftermath. (And I know you can't have an aftermath without math but you do the sums).

SPOILER WARNINGS!!!

The last few frames of Talk To Her are heart-stoppingly beautiful.

So are you saying that Almodovar is the anti-Woody Allen?

Yes.

(It is interesting the way we never see Alicia confronting the issue. We barely see her at all). Terrific film though.

i'm interested in how/why others are at odds with this... pete you expressed feeling tenderness and sympathy for the rapist - can his 'love' for alicia really outweigh his violation of her? is it because we never get to know alicia's point of view?

can you see the other expressions of benigno's love (talking, inner thigh massages!, hair maintenance etc.) as much violations as the rape itself or is the rape (as a life giving force!*) just a continuation of benigno's care - rituals necessary to bringing alicia back to good health?

* i found this somewhere else on ile: "Rape is an act of desperation, a confession of envy and exclusion. All men- even, I have written, Jesus himself- began as flecks of tissue inside a woman's womb. Every boy must stagger out of the shadow of a mother goddess, whom he never fully escapes....Women have it. Men want it. What is it? The secret of life..."(Vamps & Tramps p. 32) - it seems to match up with the silent film that illustrates the rape. i find it problematic to say the least!

I still can't quite stomach its opening question. It makes me feel sick to read something like that, written by someone I like.

It still seems as tasteless to me (as when I first read it in September) but I suppose it was meant to inspire passionate debate (perhaps about the nature of goodness and causality). I wonder why that particular wording catches my attention so powerfully?

Whatever happened to monkeyboy?

DO I agree what he has done is wrong. Yes. Do I feel sympathy for his character before during and after the rape. Yes. I think Skottie is right about Almodovar as a manipulator, and I am being manipulated. To a humanist end I think.

the rape wasn't out of line with his character - he'd consistently been pushing the boundaries of alicia's consent from the start.

DO I agree what he has done is wrong. Yes. Do I feel sympathy for his character before during and after the rape. Yes. I think Skottie is right about Almodovar as a manipulator, and I am being manipulated. To a humanist end I think.

i have pity for him too - maybe even more so after the rape - but not to the extent that almodovar was asking for. i'm bothered by the idea that almodovar might want us to excuse begnino's behaviour. 'look - she's woken up and she's happy, she's doing fine, it was all for the best!' (and of course, she's never asked). haha, having just written out this paragraph i'm becoming more and more convinced that i was manipulated to produce this response!

pity vs. sympathy?

It was sympathy for me more than pity.

the rape wasn't out of line with his character - he'd consistently been pushing the boundaries of alicia's consent from the start.

But that is the whole point, Alicia is in a persistive vegetative state. She doesn't have consent. The consent that Begnino is pushing the boundaries is that of society (the hospital, her father) and up to this point said society hasn't batted an eyelid. He has even been praised for it.

(warning: i have not seen this movie, and do not necessarily know what my position is on the question i put in quotemarks)

(sorry pete if that's not what you meant)

begnino's outlook is very different to mine, that's why i'm a bit wary of the word 'sympathy'.
otherwise yeah, i can concur on almodovar's agenda now.

But that is the whole point, Alicia is in a persistive vegetative state. She doesn't have consent.

even before the coma begnino invades alicias personal space (she is uncomfortable about this before the wallet excuses him) and then her living quarters.

The consent that Begnino is pushing the boundaries is that of society (the hospital, her father) and up to this point said society hasn't batted an eyelid. He has even been praised for it.

i'm not sure if i follow what you're saying here - if you mean that the father and hospital let it happen, this is because they trust begnino! remember that alicia's father does go in to question him but is satisfied by his (deceitful~?) answers (admittedly the questions were stupid!). obviously alicia hadn't said anything to her father about the invasion or i'd imagine he wouldn't let begnino look after her.

I saw Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, and that was funny and quite a caper and had Antonio Banderas in.

like 'matador'?

that's the kind of pretentious crap i hate. if it was in english, you wouldn't wipe yer arse with it.

i only watched it for the titties.

i would rather actually look at my bellybutton in real life, than do it metaphorically through the medium of film.

I don't think Almovodar had anything to do with Talk to Her.

http://www.elpais.es/corporativos/elpais/coleccionables/2004/cine/paginas/titulos.html

PS: Only Spanish subtitles.

I liked 'Y Tu Mama Tambien' very much. I thought it was going to be rubbish, but it was great.

The consent that Begnino is pushing the boundaries is that of society (the hospital, her father) and up to this point said society hasn't batted an eyelid. He has even been praised for it.

"Society" hadn't batted an eyelid because the hospital and Alicia's family have not been informed of Benigno's conflict of interest, and when her father became suspicious Benigno lied to him.

*

I think we are meant to sympathize with Marco's sympathy for Benigno more than we are expected to sympathize with Benigno directly, if that makes sense.

I liked the movie but I found Marco and his impassiveness (alternating with tearfulness) a bit boring as the film went on.

I hate to say it, but it is a very European film in the way it handles desire and obsession and a love that is all about the subject of that love rather than the object, in a paradoxical way. (I mean, look at surrealism. That's practically all it was about much of the time.)

i forgot what i said

brilliantly my good friend peter matthews dissed him in sight and sound, and everybody writes in saying 'well, thank god you'd been nice about him at cannes or we'd have to cancel our subscriptions'. why in the name of fuck does he get a free pass (or indeed money to go and make films with)?

euro-art-house cinema is a funny thing. how careers are made and unmade is something no-one ever writes about. but why this guy? seriously.

for the life of me i just cannot understand it. there's nothing there.

Lumiere!) or turned into yuppie hell (the Everyman with its twelve quid tickets)

lumiere is still going! and i heart the everyman (student tickets -- plus you can drink...) but the everyman be showing volver.

but otoh i'm not really in favour of the government funding art cinema, talk about repressive state apparatus.

no. people should make good films. and other people should get paid to recommend them (this bit is key). and then lots of people should see them, thus providing more money, for more great films.

I blame the middle classes

but otoh i'm not really in favour of the government funding art cinema, talk about repressive state apparatus.

Talk about Sammy And Rosie Get Laid more like.

no. people should make good films. and other people should get paid to recommend them (this bit is key). and then lots of people should see them, thus providing more money, for more great films.

That schemata could fall at the first hurdle.

I am all in favour of my pub conversations being monetised. I'd even be open to payola.

http://img.stopklatka.pl/filmowcy/00400/00440/0.jpg

i wd have liked the academy, perhaps.