Taking Sides: Celtic v. Rangers

Still game aside, they got nicer jerseys.

Partick Thistle and Queens Park were the only Glasgow sides I ever cheered on.

Oh, wait, this is a FOOTBALL question. Never mind, then. Now, where's that Thighmaster...

So I suppose I should say Celtic, and through the 90's I loathed Rangers as they imposed a total monopoly on Scottish football. Now that a Celtic-Rangers duopoly is in force I can loath both with equal measure. Their success has helped destroy Scottish football and displays like Saturday's against the Faeroes, I fear will be the norm rather than the exception.

I thought the Faroes result was very funny. At least it ended the run of defeats.

so, in footballing terms = celtic, for Kenny Dalglish and hooped socks

Up the Jags.

So that’s to paint a rather exaggerated and lurid picture. The one I see, perhaps, coming out of ‘outsiders’ eyes. “God, let’s not go to Besiktas, know? Welcome To Hell an’ all that?” “Oh, aye. Fuck, naw!”

So I get harpy because, yeh I’ve felt the cold threat of “which team do you support?” trying to second guess this Walking Brow by the colours he is wearing and the gold he touts, and I’ve heard the ‘fenian scum… dirty mick…’ but this, I believe, this “sectarianism” all = allegiance to team, rather than allegiance to philosophical or political anger.

Okay, now let’s get honest. When you walk into that taciturn cauldron on old firm day what suddenly hits you is unabashed red raw hatred. A warm gentle seethe of dispassion! And yeh, huns is a very very bad word and yes I have said it in venomous tongue, and I’ve shouted “sectarian” rubbish. I have sung the Soldier Song – I’m not trying to romanticise this, this is bad, I know it, I know this has “sectarian” “undertones” but the truth is that they mostly always remain undertones and when they become overtones the anger and violence = a result of the fact that you support the wrong team not that you believe in a united Ireland or that law derives from the well fired Canon.

So it’s a veil. I suppose, of sorts. The hatred = pure and simple = you are different team supporter, fuck off and die. Okay, yes, it does help distil this mild (strong? possibly, not?). I dunno where I’m going.

Yeh, I’ve seen people knifed. One boy crossbowed. Another lose half his arm, and all use of it. But that’s drink. And another story, so keep to the matter at hand.

It’s not as bad as ‘you’ think, to ‘us’. (This doesn’t clear it up any, does it? Clue: the kernel lies in the “aw, aye, Welcome To HELL an’ all that” comment! Outsider’s hysteria masked as objectivity? Maybe.)

Answer to yr orig. qn, Tim: if you all lived in the WoS you'd see what it's really like, and you'd appreciate and understand the reasons for what it is like and understand the way it is portrayed. I think. Yes.

I remember an interview with Bobby Gillespie in Melody Maker during Euro 96 where he was expressing his opinions on Rangers, and practically every other word was "Huns". Oddly, it took a couple of years after that for me to become bored of him and of the Scream generally.

If that view is the result of 'foreign' hysteria (and I'm prepared to believe you when you say it is, since you plainly know more about the whoe thing than I do) why do you think we foreigners are prepared to swallow the lies?

It all sounds pretty unpleasant even without the overlay of bigotry, I have to say.

At Ibrox everything is linked to sectarianism, right down to the availability of King Billy burgers and Boyne Water Bovril (OK, one of these is made up, but the other one isn't). Again, it might have changed. I can't remember anything similar at Parkhead.

Celtic have always signed proddies (Dalglish, non?) but some people reckon it's because they're aren't enough good Catholics available. I think that might be something put about by Rangers supporters.

It's not restricted to the West of Scotland either, in Edinburgh you have the Jam Tarts and the Hibies.

On a lighter note, my mother-in-law once asked me if I was a Christian or a Protestant.

Even so, four things struck me. Coins lobbed by the Huns in fact. (Not true).
- People in small groups were acting like secret agents on the walk up London Road; no colours identifiable until they got with about 50 yards of the turnstile.
- There was the utterly ritualised hatred. We'd sing one song, they'd respond. And so on.
- There seemed to be a Celtic supporter in the Rangers end (idiot) and a half-time he was outed. I've never seen people 'swarm' like piranhas to try and get to the guy. The Police looked hesitant about wading in, and the less said about the stewards the better.
- The Rangers fans had brought a big banner saying 'God bless the Queen Mother' and it was utterly unironic.

That's wicked good.

this is going to sound disingenuous, but does that mean 'vandal' is racist, too? i honestly don't know why celtic fans call rangers 'the huns' but i'm struggling to see how it could be racist, unless there's still an ethnic group around calling themselves huns.

anybody?

i guess my point is... taig (e.g.) = (irish?) catholic; hun = rangers fan (as opposed to protestant). in other words, while taig has clear ethnic implications, hun does not (in the scottish context).

but it could still be racist if there is an ethnic group which identifies with 'hun', since it's unquestionably a derogatory term.

ok, just saw the dictionary link: this backs up my point, imo.

Why does an ethnic group have to identify *itself* with a term for the term to be racist? Surely the opposite is true? I don't hear many Pakistanis call themselves 'pakis' but it's a racist term.

I suppose strictly speaking it's not 'racist', in the sense that Rangers fans aren't actually a race (even if certain fans would wish to cast them as such). Let's just say bigoted, then.

again, is 'vandal' racist also, then? i would say it is not.

i think 'hun' adheres to ordinary football rivalry convention, in that it is a derogatory term which pertains to its target's footballing affiliation rather than his or her religion or ethnic origin. akin, say, to english fans calling man u the scum. not pleasant, but not racist either.

i'd say the protestant associations are obviously explainable via the fact that practically all rangers fans are protestant. cart before the horse, imo.

It's like that programme - Peep Show!!

ps when I lived in Prestwick I had a season ticket for Hamilton! (although i'm originally from lanarkshire anyway)

And the reason I started supporting Accies instead of Celtic was because i was fed up with all the bigotry at school amongst people and I simply didn't want to remain a part of that.
Thats not me saying all old firm fans are bigots. That obviously is not the case. Most of my friends who support one or the other certainly aren't. Most of them refuse to even sing the songs.

and for the record...the 1st team i ever supported was Liverpool(and i always will). And That was despite everyone at my 1st primary school slagging me for not supporting celtic. I only did so once I found out some years later that Kenny Dalglish used to play for them and Kenny was my idol.

I just remembered why I usually try to stay away from these threads!

Also - what are you supposed to do when you move house? Change teams? Or does true loyalty demand that you never move house? And what if a new team suddenly starts up nearer to you than your previous local team (let's say a long-time Luton fan from Bletchley who suddenly finds MK Dons on his doorstep)?

Ease of getting to Celtic Park was a large factor in me choosing Glasgow over any other university town in the UK. I'm not going to start supporting St Mirren instead because the house prices are cheaper here than they are in Glasgow.

To get back to the Celtic/Rangers thing:

Most of my friends who support one or the other certainly aren't. Most of them refuse to even sing the songs

Does this mean that there are ones who sing the songs but claim that's not bigoted? (By "the songs" I presume you mean the republican/pro-IRA ones, not the ones about the actual players and/or club - it's not bigoted to sing about your team, is it, no matter who they are?) Can they justify this?

It's all just a load of nonsense really. Especially as some local teams are just as bad as celtic and rangers.

Scotland can be a silly place sometimes.

x-post.
yeah they don't sing IRA/Loyalist ones. Nothing wrong with Grand Old Team or Follow Follow type songs.

Whenever i've seen accies play the old firm, you never hear any songs from either.

Why did david murray band "simply the best"? What did the fans change the words to?

If Accies had went bust during all our troubles I doubt very much I would support another scottish team.
The whole corrupt board thing to be honest has left me sickened with football and I don't even go to games now even though that board is gone.

I went to posho boarding school, so shouldn't really be bothering with this football malarkey anyway. What, ho, jolly hockeysticks and cheer on the rugger boys, there's a good chap. Pip pip!

People who pride themselves on being "non Old Firm fans" are as annoying as the green/blue and white tossers who give all Celtic and Rangers fans a bad name to the sort of sanctimonious bawbags who believe that, because of a number of twats who associate themselves with either, all fans of one of the Old Firm are bad and evil people who are (1) bigoted, (2) not real football fans and (3) glory-hunting bandwagon-jumpers. And yes, both Celtic and Rangers have their fair share of all three. However, I don't see myself as a "Celtic fan" (i.e. part of a gang of such), I'm just someone who supports a team that happens to be Celtic. And I don't really give a shit what other people do or think, just don't assume I'm like them because I happen to support the same team as them.

And incidentally Kerr, we do not "have this chat often" on AIM, you bring it up repeatedly apropos of nothing, I tell you you've got it all wrong, you bring it up again, I continue to tell you I think you are wrong. But thank you for giving me yet another opportunity to point this out, in public this time.

If you think it's wrong to talk about religion and football in Scotland, why are you posting to a thread about whether or not Rangers and Celtic fans are armies of in-bred bigots?

And if I was stuck watching Hamilton Accies for a hour and a half, I wouldn't be singing either :)

Not that I should have to.

Cathy, you have picked a very poor Rangers team to start with. But it can only get better from here on in. You should though, Ally could do with the company :)

If they start doing better, now that I have officially given them my support, I will take the credit.

crosspost

Follow Follow We Will Follow Rangers
Up The Falls Derry's Walls We Will Follow On
Dundee, Hamilton, Fuck The Pope & The Vatican

No, nothing wrong at all...

Follow Follow We Will Follow Rangers
Everywhere, Anywhere We Will Follow On
Dundee, Hamilton, even up to Aberdeen
Should They Go To Dublin We Will Follow On

Do you guys know the story about fergie meeting souness at douglas park in the 80s?

I accept you didn't call *me* bigoted, but since I was summoned to the thread, sort of, I thought I'd stick in my tuppenceworth on behalf of the non-bigots while I was here. And yes, I've said already, there are bigots on both sides. I'm not defending either lot. There are also a lot of moronic kiddy-on bigots too. I'm not defending them either.

Presumably Hamilton was brought in because Stranraer/Clyde/Brechin don't rhyme so well with Vatican. (oh, or not - xpost)

Elgin City?

All teams have nutters. Bill leckie once said Hamilton fans were the most foul mouthed after the old firm. He was probably right. And i'm not talking about fergie.

You don't have to live in the West of Scotland to know that "support your local team" is a lot of nonsense. "Support who you feel like supporting" seems a much more sensible formulation really.

They hiss - pretty sick, to say the least. I saw (or rather heard) this when I was a kid at a Spurs game in the 80s against Man Utd. Every time the Spurs fans started doing aeroplanes the United fans hissed back at them. At the time it went right over my head - I think it was like a pantomime 'boo! hiss!' thing.

And leaves more wriggle room too.