Worst ongoing plotline in the second season of Twin Peaks (SPOILERS)

The *only* storyline I absolutely hated was the fucking tedious James story. All of the others were at least okay, and I must confess that I love the Civil War thing.

I guess I should have left an "other" option, huh? I always forget to do that.

The Civil War thing was wonderfully goofy up to a point, I sort of got sick of it but at least it offered some good visual comedy and most of the characters involved were definitely welcome onscreen. I say "most" because this plot also gave us Bobby preening around about being "Mr. Horne's assistant," etc., which was just lame and tiresome.

James's out-of-town love murder frame-up/car mechanic plot would be my vote too. At least with most of the others you understand how they grew out of the show or at least out of the characters and the sense of "let's find something for these people to do with their onscreen chemistry." Maybe the thinking was that since James had no interesting qualities whatsoever, the only thing to do was to fling him outside of the entire milieu of the show for a while. The downside was that they actually filmed that stuff instead of just writing him out, which is where I thought it was going when he rode off into the sunset.

I really love the second season, to be honest. It certainly had its down points, but I just remember seeing the first episode and being enraptured - it was weirder than the whole of the first season put together.

Also, I'm one of those people who actually like the ending. It might not have been planned, but I think it's kind of perfect.

Just had to scan the list for "James" and I knew which one I voted for. It's really a dumb plot with the dumbest character and introducing a couple other go-nowhere characters that you don't care about.

I could have done entirely without Dick as a character, so I picked the babysitting plotline, even though Andy was sort of funny in it.

The *only* storyline I absolutely hated was the fucking tedious James story. All of the others were at least okay, and I must confess that I love the Civil War thing.

totally OTM came here to voice this exact sentiment

It's definitely walking away w the win.

I didn't like James even when he was relevant to the plot, but at least I understood why he was there, and his character worked and had a few great scenes. As soon as he entered this subplot, I wanted everyone to be murdered horribly.

xposts I have to say I liked Dick. Totally could have lived without him, and I felt sad that Andy & Lucy were put in doubt (it was nice to have some innocence in a terrible world), but I did think his character was pretty funny in itself.

Would have voted babysitting plot second - Dick annoyed the shit out of me every second he was onscreen, and the story overexposed Andy and Lucy to the point where my previous affection for them was considerably eroded.

I love the ending though, cannot imagine voting for the Black Lodge climax. How much was the final scene intended as "let's deliberately end this thing on a bleak, unsettling note" or "load up the cliffhangers in hopes of a write-in campaign to save the show"?

aww I liked James. Mainly because he was nice to look at.

Voted for the Annie plotline.

The Lynch episodes in Season 2 are so fucking good. Some of the best moments in the series.

Dick is annoying and silly but having him in here is a good introduction to his destructive parody of the character on "On the Air".

Windom Earl for me. his plotline just didn't fit with the tone of the show, and suddenly casts Agent Cooper as the kind a guy that would have had an affair with his partner/friend's wife, which just struck me as very un-Dale

Maybe the thinking was that since James had no interesting qualities whatsoever, the only thing to do was to fling him outside of the entire milieu of the show for a while. The downside was that they actually filmed that stuff instead of just writing him out, which is where I thought it was going when he rode off into the sunset.

James was the worst. I don't understand why he wasn't just written out, unless the network thought he was some sort of draw for the teen audience? I remember the actor being hyped in a lot of teen magazines.

Only value in seeing James in the second season is making jokes about him leaving town to audition for the Twilight films.

i actually think the whole window earle thing was much more deadly to the show than the james thing (which was terrible don't get me wrong). the james thing ended -- the windom earle thing sucked up the entire second half of the season and was almost completely worthless, the role of col. briggs excepted.

from a ratings point of view the worst decision they made (or was it a decision or just an error?) was to let a few episodes pass between the resolution of the laura palmer mystery and the ramping up of the window earle plotline. the slack was taken up with the lamebrained plot with the french-canadian drug kingpin whose name i forget, cooper's investigation by the FBI, etc. nobody gave a shit about that, and i think that's when the ratings definitively tanked and the show's fate was sealed.

from not-lame-at-all to utterly fucking lame:

Windom and Annie, with Cooper in pursuit, locate and enter the Black Lodge
Cooper and Truman work to solve the murder of Laura Palmer
Gordon discovers that he can hear Shelly's voice PERFECTLY
Donna befriends a shut-in named Harold Smith, with terrible consequences
Bobby and Shelly's relationship is strained as they take care of a semi-comatose Leo
Donna becomes convinced that there is a connection between her family and Ben Horne
Audrey gets mixed up in the business of One-Eyed Jack's and needs rescuing
Cooper and Truman, with Pete's chess finesse, try to outwit Windom Earle
Josie is re-embroiled in the Martel saga as Andrew Packard and Thomas Eckhardt reappear
Ben Horne becomes obsessed with the Civil War, and tries to turn over a new leaf
The mayor's fiancee exerts a dumbfounding force on all men, for some reason
The Martels and Andrew try to unravel the secret of Eckhardt's puzzle box
Nadine, suffering from amnesia, returns to high school with superhuman strength
Andy and Dick compete for Lucy's approval as prospective fathers through babysitting, etc.
Cooper meets Norma's ex-nun sister Annie and falls in love
Audrey gets involved in staging a fundraiser for the Pine Weasel, and falls for Billy Zane
Ed and Norma attempt to pursue their long-forestalled love
The upcoming Miss Twin Peaks contest is on everybody's minds
Windom Earle, using Leo as his pawn, engages in kidnapping and murder in the woods
Harry tries to come to terms with the fallout of the Josie saga
James leaves town and becomes mixed up in the torrid affair of Evelyn, Malcolm and Jeffrey
Cooper, with the help of Dennis/Denise, tries to clear his name after a frame-up

Yeah but the meta intersection of X-Files and Twin Peaks is fairly enjoyable.

one thing I will say though is that I get scary flashbacks just reading the descriptions of a lot of these. That show was too fucking effective.

from a ratings point of view the worst decision they made (or was it a decision or just an error?) was to let a few episodes pass between the resolution of the laura palmer mystery and the ramping up of the window earle plotline. the slack was taken up with the lamebrained plot with the french-canadian drug kingpin whose name i forget, cooper's investigation by the FBI, etc. nobody gave a shit about that, and i think that's when the ratings definitively tanked and the show's fate was sealed.

This is interesting! Yeah, I think you're on to something, even though I actually didn't mind the Jacques Renault stuff, given that it seemed to ride the momentum of things already introduced (One-Eyed Jack's, the seamy underbelly). Jacques was just weak, villain-wise. But certainly there was a weird interregnum there, as if the Laura story was meant to overlap the Windom material, but finished ahead of schedule.

Well, I always heard it was the decision of the station/backers to reveal the Laura thing, and actually it was originally planned to continue for most of the series. Anyone back me up on this with fact rather than rumour?

Really bizarre that they would solve Laura's murder in the middle of the season rather than build up to a finale or something.

yeah the murder was solved early (or at all) do to pressure from the network

due

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that Lynch wanted Laura's murder to go unsolved for the span of the series.

I love Lynch's metaphor about killing the goose that lays golden eggs.

Yeah it just seems like such a stupid thing to do, to solve it in the middle of a season. I can understand the network pressuring them to do it but I don't see why they didn't put it at the end of the season. At the very least it would give plenty of time to hype it up. It must have been the network's decision to put it that early in the season. Idiots.

Also, amateurist, I think you may be on to something wrt the plot fugue playing a big role in the declining viewer interest, but I think Lynch more or less abandoning the show to work on Wild at Heart (and I think some other stuff...Industrial Symphony, maybe?) played the bigger role in its demise. The two causes were probably pretty intertwined, honestly.

The early resolution was also maybe an outgrowth of it starting from a short first season - if Laura Palmer had been dragged all the way through to the end of Season 2 they might have lost the viewers anyway and we'd be complaining about "that damn Laura Palmer plot that refused to end, while intriguing threads like the murderess Evelyn went undeveloped" or whatever. I mean, killing the golden goose yeah, but how long can you tease a plotline like that without just driving people crazy?

They should've kept up with "Invitation to Love".

I sort of know what you mean, Dr Casino, but at least if the creators had been allowed to choose that, then we might not have had stuff that felt rushed or shoehorned in. I will say as well, though, that the first season doesn't seem short to me, really. I know that US programmes do go on for a lot longer than UK ones, but I think that's kind of their big failing. Almost all of the stuff I like lasts for about two British series lengths - so about 12 episodes in total?

I have to say I liked Dick.

― emil.y

Hey! No fair!

Or, wait, is it just me who read that as "taking posts out of context"?

I also don't mind the length of season 1 - in fact, if TP had been done as a string of six-episode miniseries it might have actually worked even better. I just think season one PLUS two as the length to get to Laura's murderer - - that'd be, what, five British seasons? People would be screaming.

I voted James Hurley on the road, but I do have to say Windom Earle was a huge letdown. When we first hear about him Cooper is petrified and the moment feels really powerful and then he turns out to be kind of pathetic and silly.

Yeah, I would more or less cosign that; I didn't hate him onscreen and he did seem suitably evil and twisted but he just wasn't quite as terrifying in the flesh as he was as a vague threat coming in from beyond. Always a risk when you set a villain up that much though - "Wait 'til Martin comes!"

Hrm, I guess I should have listed the continuing war between Catherine Martel and Ben Horne, but I suppose that's sort of covered under the umbrellas of some of the others.

My ranking of these -

ACTUALLY WAS INTO THIS AND IT MADE THE SHOW STILL WORTH IT

Cooper and Truman work to solve the murder of Laura Palmer
Audrey gets mixed up in the business of One-Eyed Jack's and needs rescuing
Donna befriends a shut-in named Harold Smith, with terrible consequences
Donna becomes convinced that there is a connection between her family and Ben Horne
Cooper, with the help of Dennis/Denise, tries to clear his name after a frame-up
Windom and Annie, with Cooper in pursuit, locate and enter the Black Lodge
Josie is re-embroiled in the Martel saga as Andrew Packard and Thomas Eckhardt reappear
Gordon discovers that he can hear Shelly's voice PERFECTLY
Harry tries to come to terms with the fallout of the Josie saga
The Martels and Andrew try to unravel the secret of Eckhardt's puzzle box
Ed and Norma attempt to pursue their long-forestalled love
Cooper and Truman, with Pete's chess finesse, try to outwit Windom Earle
Ben Horne becomes obsessed with the Civil War, and tries to turn over a new leaf

...although I'd add that the Donna father thing suffered from it being really obvious where it was all going, while Donna pouted around being apparently too dense to put together the really, really obvious clues. And Gordon and Shelly is a throwaway, but a genuinely amusing one so I don't mind it being in there at all. Josie I accept only because it's crucial to Harry's plotline, about which I gave a shit.

STARTED OUT OKAY BUT DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE AND/OR GOT OLD FAST

The mayor's fiancee exerts a dumbfounding force on all men, for some reason
Bobby and Shelly's relationship is strained as they take care of a semi-comatose Leo
Windom Earle, using Leo as his pawn, engages in kidnapping and murder in the woods
The upcoming Miss Twin Peaks contest is on everybody's minds this was fine once it got us to the climax obviously, but all of Windom's clue-dropping and disguise-playing really didn't actually go anywhere.

LIKE NAILS ON A CHALKBOARD EVERY SECOND THAT THIS WAS GOING ON

Audrey gets involved in staging a fundraiser for the Pine Weasel, and falls for Billy Zane
Nadine, suffering from amnesia, returns to high school with superhuman strength
James leaves town and becomes mixed up in the torrid affair of Evelyn, Malcolm and Jeffrey
Andy and Dick compete for Lucy's approval as prospective fathers through babysitting, etc.
Cooper meets Norma's ex-nun sister Annie and falls in love

Teenage Nadine was maybe okay for the first, like, two scenes. In a way, I think the Billy Zane and Annie plots are the most damaging - I never liked James in the first place, and Andy and Lucy were comic relief from the get-go, but to hitch two of the most interesting characters to these really...really...really unexciting romantic pairs actually made you like the protagonists less, according to the "what does he see in her?" principle. It made Cooper seem way less cool, and Annie's total blandness worked against the idea that somehow getting drawn in by this woman was throwing him off his game and causing him to make mistakes. This is what's wrecking Coop's concentration? With Audrey you at least go, well, she's a teenager (even if you see her at school, like, twice), teenagers fall for good looking bland people. But it still sucked.

The *only* storyline I absolutely hated was the fucking tedious James story. All of the others were at least okay, and I must confess that I love the Civil War thing.

totally OTM came here to voice this exact sentiment

Spent those sections half-heartedly punching the couch in frustration

http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/11692.jpg

Dick: “Andy I believe that Little Nicky, incredible as it may seem, may in fact be the devil.”

Nadine, suffering from amnesia, returns to high school with superhuman strength

The three I really hated were Nadine back in high school, James' love triangle, and the Civil War stuff. I know many people like the latter--the appeal completely escapes me. I love everything having to do with Windom Earle. I guess I'll register the only Civil War vote.

Isn't the first season pretty short, like 10 eps or something? And the second is more the standard 22 or whatever? I watched season one for the first time recently since the original air date and actually had some trouble with it, but most disturbing was how many memories of the show I had that were from the second season, and not the first.

So, maybe this belongs in more a general-purpose TP thread, but I just watched the pilot for what I think must be the first time (when I watched the show my roommate didn't have that DVD and just gave me a recap). It's actually really striking how different it is from where the show ended up...I feel like a lot of things changed gradually, just in terms of tone and focus, so that by the time it got to this round-robin goofball show of high school Nadine, Civil War Ben, and Andy/Dick/Lucy antics, you didn't exactly notice where it had all changed. But man - the pilot is damned spooky, brilliantly loose-ended (in the sense of there being no really strong effort to set up plausible murder suspects), almost unrelentingly downbeat, and incredibly human. The opening scenes with people reacting to this horrible crime are really, really affecting...you can see why people would have wanted more of this show! (Audrey notwithstanding, who seems totally unsympathetic and annoying in this iteration.)

I wonder if the ongoing project of exposing all these people as having their own dark secrets and skeletons in the closet actually robs the show of its emotional impact in this way, even more so than making half of them into clowns. Of course the "dark secrets" thing is kind of thematically crucial so it's a no-win. But man, that pilot was great. Long, but really nails the eerie emptiness of being out in the woods in the dark.

Yeah, season one is only eight episodes - ends with Cooper getting shot by a mystery assailant in his hotel room.

The pilot is very different in tone--closer to something like River's Edge, but better. Grim and serious. I think of the principal breaking down during his announcement of Laura's death, or (as I remember it, unless I'm thinking of Elephant) the shot of student running past the classroom screaming. I can't remember if the tone changed suddenly, or if it was more of a gradual thing.

Yeah, student screaming is totally in it. Everybody just seems totally shaken and shattered. Even things like Truman being really short with Andy about him crying, sort of feels out of character based on later developments - or just, Harry's on edge and trying to keep it together himself.

otm dr. c

I was introduced to and immediately absorbed by the show when i was thirteen or so, right around the same time I had my first real experience w/ the death of a friend. A kid I was friends with died in a car crash & the degree to which that wrenched MY community from within i guess i found some parallel with in the TP pilot & the subsequent reverberation of grief, dread & uncertainty throughout the first & early second season.

the wally brando scene, especially in the context of those first few episodes of the return when everyone was still trying to get a handle on it, was and remains incredible

some of the freddie sykes stuff on the other hand…

I love all of that

Maybe more for the other thread but I just got to the Brando ep in my rewatch the other night, I think I like it even more than I did the first time

Speaking of cringey dudes [...] Wally Brando/Michael Cera would definitely be up there.

... wasn't that the entire point of that scene? Robert Forster can barely keep a straight face.

and OMG i want to kick Harold and his 2-cent Norman Bates impression into the fucking sun

OTM, especially when he’s “menacing” Donna and Maddie after they attempt to steal the diary. There’s two of them versus a wimp with a hand rake—just push past him!

My vote is more the absence of a plot line: the lack of reaction to Leland’s guilt. You’d think that Donna would be traumatized by learning a man she saw often had been molesting her best friend. Or Jacoby, having finally learned Laura’s secret. Instead, the town seems to shrug and move on after the funeral reception—which is all the more bizarre considering it’s only been about two weeks since Laura died.

I think that episode is the low of the series to me, even if goofier stuff followed--it just seems so disrespectful of what came before, especially considering how the pilot dwelled on grief. This should have been a big moment but instead we get slapstick with the mayor. You really feel the network/new writers coming in and saying, “OK, enough of that stuff, time to do our own thing."

otm, and the final episode of s2 feels like a correction in that regard: lynch comes back in & brings back maddy & ronette (the one bafflingly forgotten as soon as she’s murdered, the other pretty much only ever appearing in lynch-directed eps), the palmer family also return (Sarah also having disappeared after the wake, like how on earth do you do that ffs), Laura palmer is literally screaming in our faces &c. And then the film even more so obv. I like the post-wklp episodes but I’d be way more down on them if those corrections didn’t exist, as it is the tone shift feels like the town/show making a supernatural effort to bury deeply this terrible secret, which never goes well in lynch

Although it wasn’t so much new writers coming in as existing staff writers being left holding the bag after both lynch & frost checked out

i think fire walk with me is a corrective in that way, where it does get you to sit with the reality of how she died and who killed her and it doesn’t at all let you turn away from that, the way much of s2 does

ugh i memory-holed so much of this and now it’s all flooding back to me like a blocked sewer drain

piper laurie in asian-face

help me i am in hell

u guys so much of this season really is the pits

you're still in the part of season two i like!!!! agreed that the asian-face is terrible tho

very unnecessary plotline, also not sure why multiple characters had to be masters of disguise in season two of twin peaks

There’s two of them versus a wimp with a hand rake—just push past him!

he immediately turns it on himself [drawing that super-fake mark across his face with the visibly pre-bloodied rake]: he's emotionally terrorizing them, not blocking their path. (who hasn't met this guy.) nevertheless "2-cent norman bates impression" pretty undeniable but i do like "there are things you can't get in books" "there are things you can't get anywhere, but we dream they can be found in other people"

ratty norman bates cornering donna & maddy with the little garden tool is v funny, esp when maddy screams the fuckin house down and all he did was scrape his own face slightly!
i mean this is the same girl who screamed at a stain on the carpet
like u may look like Laura but if yr gonna live in this town u can’t pee yr pants every time u see a shadow TOUGHEN UP MADDY JFC

tbf all she did was come to a funeral and it's like she fell into a dream

then again she’s been staying in that cursed fkn house for all this time w Leland & Sarah & BOB so screaming all the time is prob understandable, all things considered

guy that played Harold was really terrible (RIP I guess). He's no better when he shows up in FWWM.

Lynch is fond of Ronnette, it's not for nothing that she showed up in the Return also (in another dimension with no name)

Harold! That's my man Edgar, Lenny Van Dohlen, from Electric Dreams. Okay he's not very good in that either but it's still a classic.

oh wow i forgot he was in Electric Dreams! he def looks better w the glasses & a bowtie. also he had better hair in that

wasn’t so much new writers coming in as existing staff writers being left holding the bag

and Engels (ie 50% of the staff writers) wrote Fire Walk With Me

e7 of season 2, the one directed by lynch, def feels like a reprieve … we’re not so brightly let, everything gets a bit more muted & sombre & proper weird again

(salvation army bouncing rubber balls lmao)

*lit

The consensus these days seems to be that the season 2 quality doesn’t significantly drop until after the Laura mystery wraps up, I would go a step further & say that those first 9 eps of s2 are better than season 1

Right away you’ve got the giant & the waiter, everything is way spookier & scarier & funnier, Albert’s best scenes are here, the major’s speech to Bobby… I even like the Harold stuff, I was gonna shout out the exchange dlh cites but it’s less von dolen’s performance & more that the best LFB acting is in those scenes (and in this stretch generally, the Laura’s sunglasses/tremond meals on wheels stuff is as interesting as the character gets pre-fwwm)

Also they found this guy

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgRoVUaS3nlY_u_j1FgDzW2MJ5TMW6aseu7Qx0EFDsIgPZ9NFnvK5xKxhyphenhyphen-2MH-cDn2Zs-p48yLI-_EHAm4Ws8BdbvIUSnWKfiJGQeNifMiUKlFVr-XrkJN4vo8VQmSynv0I7dsCdd39dfo/s1600/Picture+2.png

that is an insane take and you are welcome to keep it

i of course disagree in every possible way and loudly and to the death

dick tremayne is annoying af
and dumb

those first 9 eps of s2 are better than season 1

otm

I love James twin peaks pic.twitter.com/WPBuPHVMnL

— JT (@Jtaylor0_3) April 20, 2024

lmao

I like dick tremayne, I don't know why. he's one of the dumbest things in the show but also one of the funniest

love dick tremayne

I agree w wins, I always say “when a season 2 episode ends with a shot of a bird flying at the camera, skip ahead to the final two episodes of the season and don’t look back”

I do remember enjoying the two? three? episodes that Duchovny was in

tremayne rules

also ian buchanan untouchable in "on the air"

jeez i had no idea you guys were all so season-two-pilled

it has tremayne, man — the main man

Really enjoying the posts. I only remember watching season 1 and have little memory (enough to recognise any screen shots on twitter, so basically none) but I might just watch season 2

jeez i had no idea you guys were all so season-two-pilled

― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, April 21, 2024 7:11 AM bookmarkflaglink

season 2 is like 3x longer than 1, i get the feeling a lot of folks who deride s2 are splitting the og series evenly and assuming the killer reveal episode is part of season 1

even ignoring the finale, s2 eps 1~7 > s1

i agree with this consensus, have since the first time i watched the show! the lynchian vibes at the beginning of season two are jacked up way higher than they are in season one. and then the reveal of leland is prob the best episode of the show that isn’t the pilot or the finale

leland’s death really sucks tho. every day i am thankful that fwwm was made so that we never got too comfortable with the idea that he was completely unaware he was abusing his daughter

Put me with VG--thought Dick Tremayne was a waste of time, Lynch at his too-jokey worst.

Ian Buchanan appears in eleven episodes across a nineteen-episode span. Of the seven credited and six actual writers, David Lynch is 0% of them. Of the nine directors, Lynch is also 0% of them. He appears as Gordon Cole in one of the eleven; the one that came nineteen episodes after Tremayne's first appearance.

even ignoring the finale, s2 eps 1~7 > s1

This is true!

I really dislike both Leland’s death and Cooper basically absolving him when talking to Sarah in the next episode.

I forget if it was someone here or elsewhere who suggested that Maddy is the most Tulpa-like figure on the show - she shows up out of nowhere to provide solace for the grief of the family and friends, and provide a new target for Leland/Bob, and point the way towards solving the mystery for Cooper, and then once she’s dead it’s like no one remembers she existed.

ooh yes, that’s a hugely important link between the seasons I had entirely missed!

(xposts) All of that math is interesting, but at any point in Twin Peaks' history--first two seasons, movie, relaunch--is it ever not first and foremost David Lynch's sensibility guiding it? If I'd said Dick Tremayne was Harley Peyton at his too-jokey worst--writer of 28% of S2 episodes--that would be confusing.

Anyway, on IMDB, Lynch is listed as one of the writers on every single S2 episode.

Stop the presses! sic, I stand corrected--Wikipedia doesn't list Lynch as a writer of any of the S2 episodes, and there's also this, which I'd never read (but I bet most everyone who posts on this thread has):

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/05/david-lynch-twin-peaks-season-two

Sounds like Lynch might hate Dick Tremayne as much as I do (I'll stand by that, whoever's responsible).

Why doesn't IMDB correct that?

credits on IMDB are user-submitted. in the above question, "IMDB" is clemenza, a user who has identified a correction.

If that's the case, I think I'm going to submit my name as one of the co-writers of Citizen Kane and hope it sneaks through.

When asked why he would do such a thing, IMDB user clemenza would only say "I think it would be fun to be listed as the co-writer of the third-greatest film ever made."

IMDb lists creators and showrunners under writers (because they obviously are) - and for anyone's list as writer, each entry will have a summary of their roles (created by / showrunner / story by ...) and an 'i' symbol which will break down the roles per episode (so it's only the first three episodes of the first series that are listed as written by him, though see above). In conclusion you are a pair of knuckleheads who bring much noise and little light.

That's much clearer, thanks.

https://i.postimg.cc/mrbrP4qD/map.jpg

DL:" season 2 is too goofy" (goes on to make "on the air")

knuckleheads who bring much noise and little light

I apologise for taking clem’s IMDb report in good faith and replying truthfully but at face value, instead of assuming he was wildly incorrect and bringing actively-researched light as in my prior post

will endeavour to not make this error again