self-esteem wars

hypothesis
People with high self esteem and people with low self esteem both annoy each other. Neither have the same expectations as to what people deserve in life. It is impossible to have an "accurate" self-esteem because self-esteem is an opinion not a measure of some objective reality.

support or reject?

People with high self esteem and people with low self esteem both annoy each other.

Sometimes, yes. Often? Not sure.

Neither have the same expectations as to what people deserve in life. It is impossible to have an "accurate" self-esteem because self-esteem is an opinion not a measure of some objective reality.

Support.

i was hoping this would be a "self esteem: classic or dud" thread.

i think the thing is for most people they won't be permanently in one camp or the other

no one has high self esteem, its impossible to like someone when youre around them that much

I'm not even sure self-esteem is an opinion, more of an attitude. Is love an opinion?

It doesn't mean because I have low self esteem, I will not tolerate someone with high self esteem (or low for that matter). It is also connected to understanding of the other person. Acceptance.

I do think there are other factors involved-for example, self awareness, logic, the way the person thinks.
Latham, are you thinking of people who knowingly are bothered by those with lower or higher esteem or who are bothered by them without correctly attributing it to this issue?
Some people lack a clear view of themselves. They always think their issues are caused by other people, or other external factors.
It is possible to recognize a difference in worldview, expectations, and psychological makeup without thinking others are necessarily wrong or being bothered by them.

I don't know, but your question makes me think of another question. How does humility map on to self-esteem? Is it a form of high self-esteem or low self-esteem? It seems to mean esteeming yourself small, but it's regarded as a quiet strength and a mark of mature humanity.

for example, one person at a work place might complain excessively about their chair being inferior and taht they need a new expansive chair cost -be - damned and ergonomics consulting etc etc while other will just say "I will make do with this chair even though I dont like it"
is this a result of self -esteem? " I dont DESERVE a good chair"

I don't think it's necessarily an issue of self esteem. Is there chair inequality at your workplace? Is it realistic to expect a new chair? Maybe it also has to do with past experiences-one person is used to having good chairs at work and the other is used to having bad ones. Some people don't like rocking the boat. Maybe one person has a greater feeling of job security there, which could be realistic or unrealistic. Has the chair complainer been at the job longer? Also, some people just like complaining.

I think it is possible to have high self esteem while also having a realistic view of oneself or of a situation. Having high self esteem doesn't mean you think you're the greatest. You can accept yourself, with your faults.

Whereas some people who are insecure can't accept the way they really are and may overcompensate in some way, or feel a need to feel superior to others.

It does seem like some people feel deserving of the better things in life but they also expect everyone should get these things - ie the chairs

Maybe the thing that we call "high self-esteem" is really just a worldview that tends to be optimistic, even illogically so? And the saddos are actually seeing the world and themselves more accurately, but that may or may not be a beneficial life skill at different times.

x-post Is that a sense of entitlement rather than high self-esteem? I mean there might be a correlation between the two but it seems like they're also sort of separate things. Using your example (sorta) My new co-worker has plowed her way in here and ordered all kinds of stuff to make herself comfortable in her new space. A new chair a new fan etc. I've been here over a year and have never ordered, well, anything because I'd never seen anyone else do so and it never occurred to me that I should be able to get those things.

Mike, I think the people you are talking about feel entitled. That to me is not the same as having high self esteem.
Laurel, so you think it's more a question of optimism and pessimism? Is it the same though? Are there not high esteem pessimists, or low esteem optimists?

xpost, what ENBB said

ppl that are awesome deserve their self esteem sometimes, i don't begrudge it them

a lot of awesome people have bad self-esteem, though (and vice-versa sadly).

It depends on what that means though-I don't begrudge people just for liking themselves. And if someone is truly great at something, or smart or good looking, it is fine for them to acknowledge that. I am happy when people find themselves attractive.
x-post

true i was just pointing out that even as pure opinion there's cases with merit and not

It is one thing to love oneself or something about oneself, it is another to expect other people to care. But if people have such a need for validation or acknowledgement from others, I wouldn't really take that as a sign of high self esteem-possibly the opposite.

But of course that is different from just expecting to get your due, especially in a professional context.

the notion of 'self esteem' is kind of suspect to begin w., not the least in the sense that most 'low self esteem' types spend more time in omphaloskepsis than the majority of 'high self esteem' folks, whomever they may be.

but do people who feel entitled not feel a sense of self-esteem that is higher than others? or do they just think expensive office chairs grow on trees?

i think the thing is for most people they won't be permanently in one camp or the other

but they may spend a mojority of their time OCCUPYING one camp

unless they've lost their mojo

the mojority have

occupy self-esteem

that woul dprobably be more effective than occupying wall street

i think self-esteem is pretty much 90% chemical makeup 10% psychological

the notion of 'self esteem' is kind of suspect to begin w., not the least in the sense that most 'low self esteem' types spend more time in omphaloskepsis than the majority of 'high self esteem' folks, whomever they may be.

I was going to say, I think part of the difference is that people w "high" se don't think about it as much.

they always said we shoul dhave self-esteem in high school

Even if people who feel entitled have a high sense of self esteem, which I am not sure they do, I don't think the high self esteem is the problem. It's possible to have high self esteem and also an awareness and consideration of others.

Yes, and also in elementary school. They used to make us do stupid exercises to work on our self esteem. Like when we had to give each other "warm fuzzies" or answer if we were more like a golf ball or a tennis ball.

that is becuase psychologists tell them "people with high self esteem are happier and more well adjusted and dont use drugs" but maybe they have high self esteem for that reason - maybe its biological

'90% chemical, 10% psychlogical'

I don't know about cramming the entirety of formative experience into that 10% tbph

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o28dyt7w3As

Neither have the same expectations as to what people deserve in life

Having a low opinion of humankind doesn't correlate to low self-esteem as I understand it.

iirc, the original concept of low self-esteem incorporated the idea that it was low relative to one's much higher estimate of the worth and desserts of others, iow, it was based in the model "I'm scum and everyone else is not", rather than "I'm scum and so is everyone else."

the notion of 'self esteem' is kind of suspect to begin w., not the least in the sense that most 'low self esteem' types spend more time in omphaloskepsis than the majority of 'high self esteem' folks, whomever they may be.

I was going to say, I think part of the difference is that people w "high" se don't think about it as much.

Isn't this logical though? Someone who is hungry thinks about food all the time. A virgin obsesses over sex more than someone in a satisfying relationship. Don't see why this makes the notion "suspect".

most 'low self esteem' types spend more time in omphaloskepsis

I often wonder if that is the case with me. That I overanalyse. If I would just get on with it (lol),... But I think that in many ways my extreme low self-esteem was fed by my upbringing. I do think that in many ways low self-esteem has its roots in upbringing/family dynamics/...

Mine has its roots in bad body chemistry, although I think I could have been saved from about 2% of it by being raised by sane people.

I think self-esteem is pretty much based on those early relationships ... I mean, self-opinion is really opinion in relation to others, and we form our idea about the world and other people from our childhoods. It's not like we have much life outside of other people, maybe it's just the way we're wired as animals.

"but do people who feel entitled not feel a sense of self-esteem that is higher than others? or do they just think expensive office chairs grow on trees?"

isn't it the opposite? people with excessive pride feel more guilty about accepting handouts like expensive office chairs, i've found.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1196742/Self-confidence-ability-perform-pressure-born-say-scientists.html

What'd I tell ya? Gimme some confidence drugs.

It's got to the point where I would not believe even a fully annotated and properly cited scientific study in the Daily Mail.

It's gotta be way more complex than just genes in isolation. How can they even determine how genetics work in relation to self-confidence? That they've pinpointed a protein that's produced which results in some biochemical reaction that determines confidence, and that reaction isn't somehow influenced by ones' upbringing? I know about 1% of how this works, but seems weird to think they have so much knowledge about how people work socially and biologically that they can be set on that, and how they can even thoroughly test all the factors... I imagine it'd take decades to test what's going on, but I don't know much about these experiments.

Anywho. Self esteem itself is way more complex, I think ... you can have an unwavering belief in yourself, but still have a view that the world is hopeless, resulting in low self-esteem. You can see a person who looks like they have incredibly low esteem and confidence, but if you dig deeper they may have a fucked up view of how people/the world works, screwed up emotions, etc., which is another complex set of factors.

But maybe that's a part of it. I've had low self-esteem all my life, coupled with an undying belief in myself, and I've worked out a lot of that shit. I see people who have similar problems and they haven't pulled themselves out of it, more like absorbing it into their world rather than fighting it, so maybe there's some truth to it. Yeah, I've thought a lot about this.

surely "nurture" playa role in addition to nature, but it is interesting to consider getting your DNA polished to get rid o fthe confidence fail

Yeah I've struggled w low self esteem my entire life, and I know I have lots and lots to be proud of. Yet I really don't think much of myself, or especially my music or art or things I've made or accomplished. And it's not that I think everyone else is awesome and I'm shit, but I do think that most people have an over-inflated view of their own self worth. Maybe I'm just jealous.

That's the same boat for me, too. Have you figured out where it comes from? For me, it was from an unlucky first half of my life. Only now I'm starting to feel genuinely good about things, but it's a pain in the ass getting there.

Adam, it's better to have a "low" opinion of yourself than have a high one. That way you feel more in control of your work! Your low opinion may be inaccurate but at least you're not delusional!

And it's not that I think everyone else is awesome and I'm shit, but I do think that most people have an over-inflated view of their own self worth. Maybe I'm just jealous.

swing wildly btwn all three tbph

Interactive robot art helps your self esteem

http://makezineblog.files.wordpress.com/2006/03/img413_487.jpg?w=392&h=279

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj242/donaldparsley/lowselfesteemdroidsm.jpg

http://medicinalmarzipan.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/badge1.jpg

Maybe the thing that we call "high self-esteem" is really just a worldview that tends to be optimistic, even illogically so? And the saddos are actually seeing the world and themselves more accurately, but that may or may not be a beneficial life skill at different times.

―how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel),Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:18 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is soooo otm. Another way I think of self-esteem is as the key to society's lock, wherein low self-esteem is kind of a consequence of not having the stuff to jimmy that effing lock. The more your brain synchs up effortlessly to the demands of society, the more the routes to success are laid out before you like a map, and I can't imagine that self-doubt is even a thing someone in that position would have any understanding of. But if you're more used to futilely butting your head against the walls of success, it only makes sense that doubt and low self-esteem would be a by-product of that frustrating and unproductive slog.

Maybe there are different kinds of self-esteem. My experience with it, and knowing other people with bad self-esteem, it just results in treating yourself poorly and letting others treat you poorly. There's nothing real about that. Feeling bad about yourself looking at someone "more successful" is like whipping yourself for no good reason and doesn't do any good. Low self-esteem is what leads to the failure in unlocking things, which generates low-self esteem, and you get a loop effect... all the challenges society brings you anyone in good health can handle. Being cool with yourself pretty much beats the whole game, and that's what good self-esteem is, imo.

I dream of a worl dfree from the shackles of self-esteem - we need a way to measure esteem - ho wdo you measure how good a person is? is there an app for that ?

score on angry birds suffices iirc

I fourgot!

Yeah I think alot of mine has to do with being medicated during most of my teenage years on Acutane and various heart medications. My emotional state was intense and very manic, from suicidal thoughts to sincerely thinking I was Jesus. Ever since getting off those I've been doing WAY better, but it I still feel like crap now and then. I should probably try meditating, I think that would do alot to smooth things out.

OTM on the bad self-esteem loop, btw.

I think I'm pretty rubbish. I disgust myself and feel constantly on the verge of being found out. But why am I so enraged at myself for just living life at the slightly crap end of normal, instead of having achieved what are, to be frank, fairly unusual levels of greatness? I guess it's because deep down I think I should be, used to be, could be actually really amazingly special, so why have I squandered it?

So I don't really know if I have low self-esteem or am a raging narcissist.

I guess it's because deep down I think I should be, used to be, could be actually really amazingly special, so why have I squandered it?

There's something to this. I know that I have above average potential and I know that I've achieved below average results (according to my internal calculations, anyway). It's hard to feel particularly good about that.

Ah yes, I do think that part of me realizes I could have done better. Am/was I lazy? Did I just give up?

Also, I have this tendency to become pretty arrogant once I discover I do achieve well (in a course or whatever) and the others seem worse than me. :-( In several courses I did I experienced this. I didn't display my arrogant but inside I was mocking the rest. :-((((((

My favorite variation on that is, for instance, in an art class where I was clearly more talented from the outset than most of the rest of the class. So I'd mostly coast while everyone else worked hard and improved and ultimately bettered me.

That's pretty much my life in microcosm.

I have "low self esteem" and also a lot of personal pride - i don't think much of myself and i don't think i deserve much but i'm damned if i'm going to accept something meagre, I'd rather nothing. I guess i have a kind of high-school-is-war way of thinking about it: acting "high self esteem" is annoying and might encourage puncturing; performing "low self esteem" just encourages people to treat you badly (few and far between are the people who'll come along and recognise the ~realism~ and ~appropriate humility~ that a low opinion of yourself feels like).

and then perversely there is pride in having a low opinion of one's self, the idea that it "keeps you honest" - e.g. the idea i'd be way more of a dick if i wasn't constantly at work on self-criticisms that keep the dickishness in check.

is pride really that different from self-esteem?

they feel like two different things, idk

pride about being modest to me means you actually don't have low self-esteem. basically false modesty?

Depends on what people mean by "low self-esteem". I have a number of friends who didn't graduate from prestigious colleges, or who didn't go to college at all, and they seem so worthwhile, or I wouldn't cherish their friendship. Because of their education, they always go, "well I'm not much". Just because they don't have a piece of paper telling them so. That's what I think of as low self-esteem. Not, like, people who don't feel entitled to stuff. You can be a confident person and not feel entitled to stuff.

I think society sends messages that if you don't want to be the center of the universe that you have "low self-esteem". There are a lot of dumb memes in our society. Some people just have other priorities in life than proving themselves!

I can't stand misuse of the word "pride". I mean, it's disrespectful to racial and ethnic groups who have had to fight for respect to imply that pride is "ego". Not anyone here, it's just something people do.

Ah yes, I do think that part of me realizes I could have done better. Am/was I lazy? Did I just give up?

Also, I have this tendency to become pretty arrogant once I discover I do achieve well (in a course or whatever) and the others seem worse than me. :-( In several courses I did I experienced this. I didn't display my arrogant but inside I was mocking the rest. :-((((((

Yes, done this, too. It's like the flip side to feeling crap about yourself... "wait, I'm great! You all suck!", but that's like ... based on this idea of thinking other people think this about you when you feel bad, at least in my case. There's no truth to either I've found, most people are pretty chill, and anyone who gives you shit is just an ahole, or phantom from wherever the low self-esteem came from.

I think I'm pretty rubbish. I disgust myself and feel constantly on the verge of being found out. But why am I so enraged at myself for just living life at the slightly crap end of normal, instead of having achieved what are, to be frank, fairly unusual levels of greatness? I guess it's because deep down I think I should be, used to be, could be actually really amazingly special, so why have I squandered it?

You are me, and I claim my £5... oh wait.

Maybe this is a kind of narcissism, but I think it might be a subconscious one. Like, if as a child, you were constantly told that you were a special snowflake and were somehow just smarter or more talented or just plain ~different~ than those around you (my mother did this constantly to me, growing up, and so did many teachers, because I have that stupid ability to recognise patterns and ace tests which results in high standardised test scores) - this does not give you a sense of self esteem. It can give you a nasty sense of Entitlement - or it can give you that crushing sense of terrible, humiliating failure when you don't reach those expectations.

(I've told many times on ILX, the story of my mum berating me for only scoring "in the 99th percentile" on the SAT, not realising that the scores went 0 to 99 - not as much of a #humblebrag as it sounds, just pointing out how I was taught that even something 1% shy of perfection was somehow "just not good enough." Which oddly fuels my self sabotage much of the time.)

The way to give a child self esteem is not to tell them "you're the best" but to tell them "whatever you manage to do, that's actually OK."

It's really a hard thing to shake. I am frequently told that I'm being arrogant - which kind of doubles the problem. Because it doesn't feel like arrogance to me, it feels like crushing, inescapable shame at not being able to accomplish someone else's utterly unreasonable expectations.

ARGH.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/12/if_this_is_one_of_the_sexiest.html

overall I guess self-esteem is a useless emtion be it positive or nagative

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2006/12/if_this_is_one_of_the_sexiest.html

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, March 30, 2012 10:44 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Focusing on "narcissists" in a definitional way instead of on "narcissism" as behavior seems like a nice way of avoiding confronting one's own problems -- "people who do x are narcissists. I do not do x, so I am not a narcissist." I feel like this blogger does this sort of thing a lot -- I almost want to call it "psycotherapist syndrome" -- the use of one's position as a psychoanalyst to feel superior by identifying the bad psychological traits of others and thereby separating yourself from and elevating yourself above those bad traits.

I guess what I mean is that I find the description of a narcissist kind of two-dimensional, and it seems to ignore the more subtle ways in which many people can be narcissistic to varying degrees.

Anyway, narcissism shouldn't be confused with high self-esteem.

Narcissism is pretty easy to distinguish from high self esteem ime.

Right. I think of high self-esteem as being the ability to maintain a belief that you are a good and worthwhile person. This in no way implies that you are the center of the universe. Whereas meanwhile a narcissistic person could (and often does, I think) have very low self esteem while still believing that everything revolves around him/her.

Yes. One of the most florid narcissists I've ever known used to have this charming way of making everything that happened on earth about him while simultaneously insulting me at every turn. Will have none of that in or even NEAR my life ever again. Instant excommunication.

Real narcissists are pretty dark creatures... a person with no capability for empathy is someone you want to stay the hell away from; unfortunately I had to live with two of them for the first 18 years of my life. People with high self-esteem or are full of themselves is something totally else.