What do you expect from friends?

It could apply to many people who aren't cold-blooded mentalists, too. Social taboos and expectations on behaviour and the suchlike are so frequently utterly absurd i can't believe people would consciously buy into any of it.

oh gosh, that was all kinds of coherent. uh. yeh.

me neither.

(final moan before I deal with them again, I promise)

it's not an expectation but what i like is being confided in: it seems to happen a lot so yay!!

the danger of this is i think that every now and then in the past i have fixed on SOMEONE to be my designated now-YOU-i-feel-i-can-spill to, and discovered that they think i am abusing the privilege (ie i haf a wonky radar and zone in crush-wise on the ones who DON'T favour equality of spillage as a good thing, rather than the ones who're hoping for it)

(name for condition in final bracket: the FKN HUMAN CONDITION curse you for diluting my 12-ft saurian implacability with yr complicated emotions ect ect)

That said, I have ALWAYS been this way - happy to go along with what people wanna do but rarely initating stuff myself. And I'd like to think mates have got used to it. I also assume some got jack of it (me never calling, replying to things or turning up to invites) and no longer contact me, and I have to wear that I suppose.

I feel like such a SHIT friend sometimes. But I have been really struggling to deal with being energetic and social for a very very long time now. Its all too much. I guess I am lucky that hasnt put some people off :/

also i guess a friend is someone who actually has some desire to hang around with you and you don't have to chase after them too much when you want to get together. although come to think of it i've had lousy friends that were easy to "book" for a friday night, etc. (oh in addition, i hate it when i ask someone to do something cuz i want to see THEM and they show up with 15 of their closest friends and all of a sudden the night revolves around whatever THEY want to do, whatever THEIR personal needs are, and it's like i'm not even there.)

If the two of you were getting all emotional on the phone when you were discussing this, then it's obvious that you have a strong affection for each other (or else neither of you would be bothered). So the answer about whether to end the friendship is 'no'. If you enjoy your time together so much when things are going well and you are close confidantes, then do something to nurture your friendship and get it over the rocky patch.

Really good friends, ones you can have intense heart-to-hearts with, ones you are very comfortable with and whom you trust absolutely, don't come along very often and they're worth their weight in gold when they do.

Talk it over with him, and see if you can't straighten things out.

This is so U&K. But then again, I find that some of my best friends in the world are the ones where we can drop out of contact for months at a time, and then one or the other will make contact (and it can be one or the other) and it's like no time has passed at all.

However, it takes a long bloody time to get to the point where you can be that way.

Anyway, to answer the question. I don't know. Loyalty, I think. I often think that perhaps I expect too much from friends. I don't think I expect anything I wouldn't actually be willing to do for the friend. I have to think about this.

Communication is U&K, always.

^Some sad memories in this piece.

nuthin; i just try to take people as they are at a given moment. I've had the great fortune of having completely amazing people in my life. Sometimes it as much as blows my mind...

one friend really threatening to ruin our friendship of late. she didn't bother coming out to birthday drinks i had based on a really spurious excuse and then this week didn't come to see a play i'm in either. i feel sort of fine about it apart from in principle, i've been there for her plenty of times and she is someone who has probs with insecurity or depression - i've always listened and not judged when other people do.

i just think like...a close friend who doesn't come to your birthday drinks or like the first play you've done in 11 years which is clearly a big deal, texting on the day in both cases to say she wouldn't make it, well that kinda gets into cut off territory to me?

even if not being vindictive. maybe it's better to expect nothing...

Do you have any kind of inkling about the reasons for it?

she never goes out really...going out is a major effort for her for whatever reason, she's a major no show especially if it's a group situation. which is fine to a point, but people should put that aside for good friends. she said last night she was out for dinner with her parents as it's her birthday this week but i don't even believe it.

as i say i don't feel hurt as such, just like...didn't reply to her text saying she wouldn't come and kinda think well that's it.

With insecurity and depression, it's not always easy to step outside of it, even for the bestest friends in the whole world. It's also not easy to admit, even to yourself, hence possibly having best of intentions of trying to come out then bailing at last minute when you realise you can't.

(hey, look, Dr Freud, I tried to make that generic but ended up making it about me)

yeah i guess i'm aware of that, though, and i don't know where a distinction actually comes to exist, i am not sure she clinically has depression, just is quite an insecure person. i still feel like for example coming to the play is a pretty easy thing to do. and not doing so and expecting me to be fine with it is a bit odd.

i've got friends that are kinda flakey like this, and that's fine, they're just flakey. None of my best friends are like this though, so there's probably a line which this behaviour crosses alright.

I do this to my friends a lot, btw. What seems easy to you might not seem easy to her - if she's been doing this a lot recently, she might feel even something like a play will be a new opportunity for people to enquire as to why she hasn't been out the last few times, even if that's not going to happen - the *possibility* that it might transpire that I've been pissing people off is enough to stop me going out, hence probably pissing people off more, lather, rinse, repeat.

It took quite a lot for me to finally email a mate and explain WHY i haven't been showing for things. Social anxiety's a difficult thing to explain, especially to people who see you as a generally social animal.

You've made me determined to go to social event I've been dithering about tonight though!

i dunno...i guess i know her well and actually think it's laziness mixed up with a little bit of insecurity and social anxiety. and selfishness, there are plenty of people i amn't nearly as close to whom i was surprised to see at the play. i mean i have health probs and i know sometimes you can't do something, but for a close friend it's different, not going wouldn't enter my mind.

all i want from and expect from my friends is to have a beer with me once and a while, someone to talk to and make me laugh. simple.

from most friends...yep. think if you've helped someone else i'd expect more, is the thing in this case.

I expect that anything will "go" with my best friends. The bestest ones, the ones I am MOST uncomplicatedly myself with. I can be exactly as stupid and lame and un-cool as I am and feel no pain, with them.

Other people, while I might really enjoy them for other reasons, how lovely they are, their unique perspective, having something to offer them, etc, there are just those days when I wake up thinking, "Oh god did I say/do that? Why didn't I realize I was out of bounds? How did I let myself get so careless just because I was having a good time? Must be more careful, no more losing control around people."

This might explain why I particularly like being friends with thugs and spazzes: never having to feel like The One.

Spazzes are my people. Srsly.

yeah but depends, sometimes a friend just (via their nature) doesn't have a heck of a lot to give back.

my best friend (over 25 years now) isn't much of a giver or listener but he's still my best friend for many other reasons.

re: LG's friend not coming to the play, drinks, etc; i am tight with some people for whom going out - being with a lot of people, socialising - is going to be a big deal, not necessarily in the context of their depression but just in being draining, feeling pressured, sorta destabilising one's routine. i'd be happier judging their commitment to the friendship if it was based on events that were on shared terms - like, do they want to go for a drink?, or eat dinner, or whatever. we're assuming that that's the case with your friend, that she has anxiety re: these things, and maybe it isn't! it feels worth noting that both of the situations are kinda the situations in which you go to see people and don't really see them, like seeing someone's band play - like, she could've been at your play and not got a word with you, or ended up on the next table at your drinks. not that these diminish the importance of just being there for a friend, but they aren't necessarily a good arbiter of someone's feelings for you.

to the original thread q, which is interesting; i think the only thing i feel okay about broadly expecting from a friendship is that people should try to initiate contact with one another a roughly equal amount. i think when it gets uneven it can be difficult, can trigger insecurity or make you feel put upon.

when i was a little more socially awkward and insecure than i am now i used to bail on things thinking that people probably didn't want me to be there anyway and had invited me only out of courtesy (so it would be fine to bail; so actually going would be the thing that was weird).

I think in that situation if someone had said 'why weren't you there? i wanted to see you' i would have been genuinely startled and felt rather chastened about it. people just not mentioning it, or taking it as a hint on my part and disappearing, would just serve to confirm my prior belief that i hadn't really been welcome in the first place.

(i do get that this is maddening solipsistic behaviour btw! but tbh i sometimes still fall into it)

i don't think i've ever been bothered by people failing to turn up to group social events (and regularly bail on the kind of thing that doesn't actively inconvenience people myself - ie last-min bailing on a ticketed event, say, or a small dinner party = not okay without a good excuse; last-min bailing on casual pub drinks = fine). there are plenty of good reasons - if the person in question is at all socially anxious that should be respected; also, especially in london, everyone's so busy and double-booked all the time that you always expect some people to have prior commitments or to just be flaky about their diaries; and also, people are often too broke to come to the pub.

only ever once ended a friendship b/c of a similar thing when someone kept making excuses to bail on one-on-one meets, and not making any attempt to rectify matters on her end.

basically i don't think missing bday drinks and a play is a big thing at all.

I think maybe you shouldn't write this person off - like as an actual thing

But it might be good to let them go a little - not so much closing the door on them ,as just facing the other way from the door

perhaps make them make an effort a little bit - and if they don't well then they don't

I expect friends to do at least a little bit of the heavy lifting re: staying in touch, basic relationship maintenance. If you never pick up the phone or send an email, but rely on the other person to do it, you're not being much of a friend.

i don't think i expect anything of my friends apart from being, you know, nice to me and supportive of me! i have many friends who i literally didn't see for over a year at a time, because i guess we were at different stages in life, but once circumstances enabled us to see each other regularly again it was as if nothing had changed. i mean what it comes down to is that i'm going to see friends who don't fit into my particular social routine (in my geographic area, at clubs/art galleries/gigs/pubs) a bit less, but that doesn't mean i like them any less. and some people are just bad at active staying in touch - look, life happens! people are busy! it doesn't matter.

i'm far more likely to rethink a friendship if someone criticises me or my work in public tbh - to me friendship isn't necessarily about constant contact, but knowing someone's got your back, even if you haven't seen them for months.

I think the above is kind of why its an idea to not actively write off the person but realign your thoughts about them. It isn't the level of contact that is the problem its the feeling of lopsidedness - it doesn't hurt to let them go a bit. Sometimes we are the initiator, sometimes they are - and sometimes its in between - right now you are feeling like you are the initiator, and that it falls on deaf ears. Stop being the initiator, in this case - i think

am i being odd and confrontational for thinking it would be better, if it's a close or once-close friend, to say something rather than just let go? there's a chance they don't know they're hurting your feelings and falling down on some unspoken friend contract.

i feel like when you start to feel that lopsidedness with a friend you end up basically game-playing-- i've been the one to email her rather than she email me, this is like the fifth time, i'm just going to wait and see if she initiates contact and if she doesn't well then clearly she doesn't like me enough. and i don't think that's healthy, i think there's something competitive and petty in there that can take over if you're not careful.

maybe it's just that i've been a massive flake in my time, and no doubt will be again, and would like to live in a world in which flakes are forgiven, so that i can be forgiven! but also there are some relationships i have where if i wasn't the one to initiate contact most of the time i might never see them, and i tried the huffy well-then-i'll-just-let-go, but tbh these are people whose company i really enjoy! and it's so rare and good to find people like that that cutting off contact because you feel like they aren't reaching out to you enough seems pointlessly prideful.

OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM OTM

I don't think the 'letting them go' thing is a huffy action at all!

Its more that it might be best to focus less attention on this particular friendship. letting people go isn't necessarily cutting contact at all, its making space. And of course the 'flakeyness' can (and should) be forgiven! And perhaps the non-flakey person could do with being a little more flakey themselves. Focus less on this particular friendship and you won't notice things like "this is like the fifth time, i'm just going to wait and see if she initiates contact and if she doesn't well then clearly she doesn't like me enough".

Its really about letting things be at their natural level - which isn't fixed, and ebbs and flows with time

bail money

i agree with that completely orchard.

thing is the birthday thing i can largely take or leave, but the two combined is a problem for me, particularly the play because it's not just a social event, it's me doing something which has been difficult to get back into, friends supporting that matters, at least the first time.

being supportive is going to see your friend do something like this. if i was in a play every week or when i do another one i won't really expect people to go, but this friend knows this is a big deal for me. and they'd be vindictive about others who behaved this way towards them.

i think also it's not like this is one person on a large circle of friends or whatever, that's not really how i operate, it's a really good friend, like properly close friends, or at least that was the case.

maybe it's just a sign of drift.

no snitching