Rent or Own? (A Domicile Poll)

I own my own place, but have rented in the past. (We bought our house in 2007. Prior to that it was all renting, all the time.)

Rent, have only rented

And feel free to weigh in on the relative merits of each. I have friends who are big fixer-uppers and handymen or handywomen, and they love having their own place to work on and endlessly tinker with. That side of home ownership does not appeal to me very much. But maybe it would change if I actually owned a place, I don't know. I've been lucky in having good landlords who aren't jerks and fix things when they need it.

rent, have only rented, thinking about buying in a co-op. only reasons to do that really are stability and if the finances happen to work to our favor.

renter, think owning homes should be illegal

so you just want the man to have a monopoly on our housing?

at the very least imputed rent should be taxed

Renter now, owned in the past. Might own again in the future.

We bought because we knew we were going to be going to be living in one place for a very long time, and wanted the flexibility for making changes that ownership provides. We bought an older (1946)house in a close-in suburb with a walkable neighborhood and no HOA. Plus I just don't like sharing walls with other people. I had to do it growing up in Army housing, I had to do it in the condo we lived in when I was in high school, and I had to do it in all the apartments we rented over the years.

renter, think owning homes should be illegal

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:43 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Unless you have the means to own like 10 of them and rent them to people obvs.

tax deduction if an owner

at the very least imputed rent should be taxed

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:44 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

I like the cut of your jib

Own. Sometimes I wish I rented. I haven't had any preparation in life on trying to figure out on my own why the goddamn dishwasher or shower or toilet isn't working. When I rented, I could just call the landlord and he'd have a plumber out in a day or so. Not that I haven't called someone in when things were really bad, but they're a lot of fucking scratch. It was nice to have that all figured into the rent somehow.

at the very least imputed rent should be taxed

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is silly. Maybe "imputed car lease fees" should also be taxed for people who own their cars outright.

I like the cut of your jib

It helps that my mother's boyfriend is a professional remodeler/handyman. I've paid for a plumber and an electrician exactly once in six years.

rental income is only taxed net of ownership and maintenance costs, so I don't understand the logic of taxing the entirety of "imputed rent"

own, but i never thought i would. renting never bothered me philosophically and i wanted to avoid the responsibility of fixing things at all costs. but i was able to find the perfect place, it was pretty much ready to go and has a very minimal amount of yard to mow & and walk to shovel. and it turns out you can pay people to repair things when they break.

Rent. I've lucked out with having good-to-great landlords, though.

well it could also be taxed net of maintenance costs

xps

rent. for most of the last 16 years i've rented from friends, which is mostly great. letting agencies are essentially vermin tho.

rental income is only taxed net of ownership and maintenance costs, so I don't understand the logic of taxing the entirety of "imputed rent"

― i've a cozy little flat in what is known as old man hat (Hurting 2), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

I think yr conflating two different groups of people here

the other option would be to give renters a deduction for the amount they pay in rent

ha it sounds like phil and i own the same house, right down to the year. GET OFF MY LAWN etc

the other option would be to give renters a deduction for the amount they pay in rent

I think Massachusetts does that, or at least did up through 2001?

Rented for several years, then bought a condo when monthly rent for the types of places I wanted to live in crossed the threshold of what I was willing to pay in mortgage. Have put little to no serious money in the place, which is likely to change this year (need to replace the windows and redo the bathroom).

Rent, always have, will for the foreseeable future. Reasons:

-I can't imaging saving enough money for a down payment. It would take 20+ years at our current rate of saving. If I've rented that long, might as well ride out my life in rentals.
-I hate when things break and having to deal with it. I don't like fixing things up, I just want them to work. And if something does break I want to email one person and they'll have someone out to fix it and deal with everything involved.
-Short commute is one of the biggest factors in choosing where I want to live. I don't want to live further away from my job than I am now, and couldn't afford anything around here or closer.
-I really could only afford a condo, but then you've got all the annoying neighbor stuff to deal with, just like renting. It's harder to get out of if they are horrible.

well that would be good for state taxes but at the federal level, renters are still at a tax disadvantage xp

rental income is only taxed net of ownership and maintenance costs, so I don't understand the logic of taxing the entirety of "imputed rent"

― i've a cozy little flat in what is known as old man hat (Hurting 2), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

I think yr conflating two different groups of people here

the other option would be to give renters a deduction for the amount they pay in rent

― 乒乓, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:09 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If the goal is to level the playing field with ownership and the mortgage interest deduction, it'd have to be a deduction that approximates the amount of the rent that's equivalent to mortgage interest (and I guess property taxes). I don't follow how imputed rent taxation levels the playing field at all. It seems bizarre to treat money you aren't paying in rent as "income" when you are basically spending that same money on ownership costs (assuming you don't own outright, which most people don't). Also if money you're not paying in rent is "income" you could justify taxing pretty much any item you own -- I'm not leasing my computer or my television, I bought them outright, therefore the money I'm not paying to rent them is income?

Plus we are turning our entire backyard into a food garden this year. We're planning on 12 4'x 4' beds. Try that with your fourth floor walkup.

I've only rented, never owned. Not in a financial position to own right now, but I've heard enough stories from people who've regretted that decision that even if my wife and I were better equipped, I'd want to wait until we felt much more comfortable with the idea of settling somewhere.

you've given a very good argument for getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction xp

if you level the playing field w/ those deductions you might as well have none, the only people losing out at that point are homeless people

xp

owned for 7 years, rented for about 7 before that. i hate when things break and having to deal with it only marginally less than when things break and having to deal with getting someone else to deal with it.

and property tax deductions, fwiw xp

I don't follow how imputed rent taxation levels the playing field at all. It seems bizarre to treat money you aren't paying in rent as "income" when you are basically spending that same money on ownership costs

landlords have ownership costs too

If the goal is to level the playing field with ownership and the mortgage interest deduction, it'd have to be a deduction that approximates the amount of the rent that's equivalent to mortgage interest (and I guess property taxes). I don't follow how imputed rent taxation levels the playing field at all. It seems bizarre to treat money you aren't paying in rent as "income" when you are basically spending that same money on ownership costs (assuming you don't own outright, which most people don't). Also if money you're not paying in rent is "income" you could justify taxing pretty much any item you own -- I'm not leasing my computer or my television, I bought them outright, therefore the money I'm not paying to rent them is income?

― i've a cozy little flat in what is known as old man hat (Hurting 2), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:15 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

putting aside the question of the mortgage interest deduction or even mortgages in general, the issue is that homeowners enjoy the consumption value of their homes tax-free while renters are taxed on the consumption of the places they live in. you can argue that homeowners paid for their properties with after-tax dollars like renters, but homeowners can sell their properties later and would only be taxed on any gain and might even be able to deduct any loss (i'm not sure). renters otoh pay for rent with after-tax dollars and never see those dollars preserved in any kind of basis. arguably you can put renters on an equal level with homeowners by making rent payments deductible.

and don't think the IRS hasn't thought about trying to tax you on imputed income from things you own!

like the key is thinking about a home not as a home but as an investment vehicle that you get to live in. you can easily reify that consumption value by renting the home out to someone else, and getting taxed on the rental income that you receive

Plus we are turning our entire backyard into a food garden this year. We're planning on 12 4'x 4' beds. Try that with your fourth floor walkup.

― ARE YOU HIRING A NANNY OR A SHAMAN (Phil D.), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:18 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

We are doing something similar! Also in two weeks we should be getting the bees to start a little apiary. Definite advantages of ownership.

and that's probably true of your computer or television, if you charged people to watch your TV or use your computer you'd have to pay taxes on the money you received!

I should charge people to watch my bees.,

We thought about bees, but I don't know if we're ready for that. Plus my wife has been making serious moves toward becoming vegan so I think she's getting away from honey. Would be nice to have our own pollinators, though.

wait, is honey baby bees or something?

it's an animal product, ergo non-vegan

would be pretty baller if it was baby bees tho

So is alcohol, when you get right down to it. All that poor, exploited yeast.

yeast is classified as fungi and isn't an animal

Meant bacon wrapped Yeast

yeast wrapped in baby bees

the other option would be to give renters a deduction for the amount they pay in rent

I think Massachusetts does that, or at least did up through 2001?

still have this, thank god

Plus we are turning our entire backyard into a food garden this year. We're planning on 12 4'x 4' beds. Try that with your fourth floor walkup.

― ARE YOU HIRING A NANNY OR A SHAMAN (Phil D.), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:18 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

We are doing something similar! Also in two weeks we should be getting the bees to start a little apiary. Definite advantages of ownership.

― how's life, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:41 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You can't do something like that if you rent a house?

renting is UNAMERICAN for christs sake how did we forget this

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 5:00 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No, almost everyone is wrong about what they want.

are all the nimbys on my community board part of this massive cartel, do they get paid off too

Owning here is basically impossible at this point unless you want to live in the country. I would need at least 40K just for the deposit/stamp duty, and on my own couldnt get a mortgage thatd cover more than a bedsit. Which blows. I desperately want to own my own place, I like the security.

otm

meanwhile our politicians are arguing about fucking boats

huh

Anyway, I would support making rental payments deductable if mortgage PRINCIPAL payments and not just interest and taxes were deductible.

― i've a cozy little flat in what is known as old man hat (Hurting 2), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:20 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

eh youre confusing things, mortgage principal payments go towards putting equity into the investment asset, it's entirely separate from the use-value you derive from the house, I don't see what the point of deducting mortgage principal payments if at all... sounds like youre just trying to tip the tax scales even further towards homeowners

theres sort of a weird attitude inherent in thinking that the solution here is to remove positive things from home-owners to level the playing field - why not improve things for renters instead? i mean yeah yanking the rug out from peeps who own houses would level the playing field, but why level the playing field by just making things suck for everyone.

jjjusten that is literally what I am suggesting, improving the things for renters by letting them deduct rent payments from their income

oh i wasnt directing that at you necc, i just saw a bunch of "tear down the mortgage interest deduction regime" shit and thought hey why not make things better instead

well I believe in that too

everybody gets a tax break is kinda the same as nobody gets a tax break, or I mean it's not the same but it's just 'lower taxes for all, right now' which means higher taxes for all later.

well you can increase tax revenue while still giving tax breaks to some, like renters, who deserve it, for example you could probably cover the entirety of the 'tax break' to renters by just taxing capital gains at a higher rate, or increasing the highest tax bracket rate by a few more percentage points, double down on the estate tax, etc.

nobody needs tax breaks just for having to live someplace, people need tax breaks if they're poor or to incentivize social goals but 'I have to live someplace' doesn't merit a tax break because it's universal nor does your decision about whether to rent or own

like the point of the deduction is to incentivize people towards a certain social goal (~the ownership society~), if there is an equal and opposite incentive then there is no incentive anymore

if there is an equal and opposite incentive then there is no incentive anymore

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 6:55 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark

yes, this is what i am arguing for

yeah but at that point its only there to make people like jjj feel like 'everybody wins'

people need tax breaks if they're poor

well as you point out poor people tend to be renters, so this would cover them and also make the tax code more conceptually sound :)

people like me

wait btw, do people not get a renters rebate based on income where you all are from? because thats crazy

i guess its technically a property tax refund? is this just a minnesota thing

im pretty sure rent is not deductible at the federal level nor is there a credit

right but dont other states have you get a (normally sizable) check back for renters at the same time as homeowners do their property taxes?

i got a gangload more money back as a renter from property tax than i ever have as a homeowner

that would require state legislators in 49 other states making it so

well hooray for us i guess

Co-owned a house in Austin with my ex-husband. He picked it out before he me and knowing what I know now, he probably chose it because he was tired of looking. It had a million issues, but location ended up being cool.

I had the foundation repaired, put in a new driveway....it was the size of a thimble so I had the old garage converted to a studio to get things out of storage. When I left the house (and marriage) I had spoken to an architect about expanding it and we were going to start that project. But looking back, it really wasn't a quality house and it would have been a colossal money pit.

He never cared much for it and I have driven by and see it sort of falling apart. He still had a renters mentality and let things go until they got so far gone it was uber pricey to reverse...like a broken joist and roof issues. Because of the five years of dealing with that house, happy to be a renter again and not have to worry about it all.

Taxes went up yearly and it was a hassle to go protest the increase yearly. Then the house was a shack in any other city or town but in Austin it was $220K for a poorly built 2-1 that needed a good $200K put into it.

right but dont other states have you get a (normally sizable) check back for renters at the same time as homeowners do their property taxes?

WTF magical moneyland do you live in.

love owning, good luck renters someday your dreams will come true

Minnesota trayce, apparently once again we did something right that I just assumed was general practice.

love renting, good luck revivalists xp

Oh hey, here's a fun thing that can happen sometimes in home ownership! In yesterday's mail:

The insurance indicated by the policy or application number above is being nonrenewed on the termination date listed above for the reason that the company is no longer writing this line of business in Mississippi.

like the point of the deduction is to incentivize people towards a certain social goal (~the ownership society~), if there is an equal and opposite incentive then there is no incentive anymore

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 6:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

D's version (renter credit) is still a preferable way of going imo rather than an "imputed income" tax. I mean, there is a non-meaningless concept called cash flow. I don't think it's good to put people in positions where they can't afford the things they already own, and contrary to your suggestion upthread, the "homeowning fixed-income granny" is not some conservative strawman like the "family farmer" supposedly devastated by the estate tax, but represents the typical retired homeowner.

When I left the house (and marriage)

Yeah, this is another thing with owning a house -- from my observations of friends and relatives, it can make any personal trauma (divorce, job loss, chronic illness) that much more traumatic because you don't have the flexibility you get from renting. Especially post-housing crash, I knew several people stuck with property they needed to sell for various reasons and couldn't.

okay imputed income for all new home buyers, granny can keep her home.

xp

somebody who has something that is worth a lot of money

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/108892421_34e2e88fb3.jpg

ffs.

we're better off as a society when govt policy doesn't privilege rich people and people with assets yeah

― iatee, Wednesday, March 27, 2013 3:12 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

u mean people like landlords?

people who own their own houses are landlords

whoa

property is theft vs. property is def

i see what you did there, but the legal definition is one individual who rents to another individual, so no

does 'net worth' include debt or

― Esteban Buttiérrez (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, March 27, 2013 1:33 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fwiw net worth is = assets - liabilities so presumably yes.

I almost bought a townhouse around 1998. Had i done so, i'd be over $300,000 richer. Somehow the collapse of the housing bubble missed that neighbourhood. OTOH, some cherished life events would not have occurred had I moved there.

Always rented, looking to own in the next year - tbh its only because we want to have a bunch of dogs and not share a wall.

I am looking forward to one day owning a house again. However, right now, when I think about it I get seriously anxious. It would have to be a really well built house that doesn't leave me wondering if my record collection and victrola will go crashing through the floor...maybe a nice slab foundation next time, not pier beam. Although in Texas those slabs can really crack with a good drought. UGH!!!! Renting is fine.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

That 2:1 breakdown is about what I would have expected. Hope everyone remembered to get their April rent in.

was hoping there would be a few secret nytimesers among us

I own. I made the mistake of buying at the height of the boom and was "underwater" for a while but thankfully without ever NOT being able to make payments. Given the choice I'd probably rent, but I don't tend to regret these things.