What's needed to build a progressive majority in the U.S.?

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In that Gore thread, Nabisco brought up some issues ( Americans' indifference to globalization, voter apathy, and the changing demographics within the Democratic party)that affect the left in being effective politically, what tactic could the left do well with or without?

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Monday, 30 September 2002 05:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Cheesecake. Lots and lots of cheesecake is what's required.

Andrew (enneff), Monday, 30 September 2002 06:42 (twenty-two years ago)

If anybody on the left could get it in to their heads that the vast majority of people just don't give a fuck about anybody else beside themselves then maybe they would be listened to more

dave q, Monday, 30 September 2002 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

haha or GET EVERYONE TO VOTE (poss.same answer as dave q's)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 30 September 2002 07:44 (twenty-two years ago)

The new Peter Gabriel album ain't helping matters.

James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 30 September 2002 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Everyone votes in Australia, and we still have a fucking backward redneck party in power.

Andrew (enneff), Monday, 30 September 2002 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

The division of the United States into four or five seperate countries, each with its own government. You'd have a chance in the new nations of New England and Pacific Northwestica.

I'm not really kidding.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Monday, 30 September 2002 08:43 (twenty-two years ago)

that is a good idea Colin seriously. I don;t see the point of this country remaining as it is. the beliefs and priorities across this country are so diverse that no problems are ever solved.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 30 September 2002 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Colin and Dave Q = completely OTM.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 September 2002 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah Aaron - diverse viewpoints and beliefs suck!

James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 30 September 2002 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I think what he's getting at, James, is that it's not a matter of "diversity," which would imply uniform distribution -- it's a matter of different regions of the country having steadily more divergent cultures en bloc. If we imagine an actual political division of the nation along those lines, we'd have to imagine v. v. different political systems between, say, the Pacific Northwest and the South. Obviously such a thing is impossible for lots and lots of reasons (economics not the least of them; your progressive emergence would be shot by the pressure on each new nation to attract business with corporate-friendly policy!), but it's nonetheless telling. I think the biggest problem far-end progressives are having, message-wise, is a failure to recognize how urbanized and "modern" their concerns are -- they're making the mistake of seeing mid-America as an informed "enemy" to their views, when really their task isn't to defeat that "enemy" but to convince and encompass it, to make it "friend."

On the other hand, Wal-Mart has done more to spark a rural progressive movement than any other entity in the past two decades.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 30 September 2002 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I am a registered Independent, but I would register myself as a member of the Wal-Mart party.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 September 2002 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Not sure how this fits in here but I bet there are more Democrats among rural poor foax than among comfortable urbanites.... just a guess...

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 September 2002 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you'd need to add a "sub" to "urbanites" to be entirely OTM, Tracer.

Part of the Judis/Teixiera idea goes like this. With cities still on an upswing and education and service industries growing as ever, there's an enlarging urban "professional" class with sort of new-model job traits: centrally, their jobs are less connected with the profit motive than in the past. They're (supposedly) more likely to be in jobs like health care, the arts, or academia -- or failing that, some line of work that they have a personal interest and some form of education background in. As such, they see their professional goals as tangible goods -- people's health, students' learning, personal fulfillment of various sorts -- and see corporate profit as a force against that. (Wipe away the details and this comes down to a really simple but sort of hard to confirm idea: young professionals now think of themselves as competing with the corporate structure for their own personal fulfillment.) This, supposedly, will swing them to the left. Also they're urban, and thus much more comfortable with government action -- in an urban setting you're exposed to the efforts of government on a near-daily basis, and you're also exposed to the problems that government services are meant to target: this, also, will theoretically swing them to the left in terms of supporting public services.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 30 September 2002 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

(And obviously the social liberalism of urbanites is pretty well apparent, so there's that part.)

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 30 September 2002 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Pacific Northwestica

Haha, some friends of mine have been long dreaming of such a thing, except it would be called Cascadia. Take the Rockies, and everything from northern California all the way up.

donut bitch (donut), Monday, 30 September 2002 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Have fun with Idaho.

nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 30 September 2002 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Free Beer and legalize pot

brg30 (brg30), Monday, 30 September 2002 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

four or five would be a start. might look at having even more divisions than that.

wealth redistribution, drastic - like limiting inheritance or something

ron (ron), Monday, 30 September 2002 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

James if I didn;t like diverse viewpoints, etc., why the fuck would I be on this board ;-)
seriously, what Nabisco said. I was really just thinking about the 2000 elections, in which you could really see, when you looked at some of the maps that diplayed voting county-by-county, that there is a huge divide between rural and non-rural people in this country.

part of the problem with some of the coalition-based grassroots progressive movements is that, well, lets look at Walmart. lets say the company wants to move into a small town. Some of the people opposing it are going to be simply "not-in-my-backyard" types, who are great people to have in the limited context of the town, but when trying to formulate national policy, say, on Walmart, most of those people won;t give a shit.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Monday, 30 September 2002 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Not sure how this fits in here but I bet there are more Democrats among rural poor foax than among comfortable urbanites.... just a guess...

Not necessarily the case in good ol' Pacific Northwestica!

Have fun with Idaho.

I never promised a purely idealistic country here. Sometimes, compromises have to be made.

donut bitch (donut), Monday, 30 September 2002 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

if you break the country up into lots of tiny bits it will be easier for walmart to move into every small town, not harder (you're not going to be breaking the corporations up into small bits: they're getting bigger)

mark s (mark s), Monday, 30 September 2002 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"I bet there are more Democrats among rural poor foax than among comfortable urbanites" - Not neccesarily the case in the southeast, midwest, or southwest either.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

another idea: education

ron (ron), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

*insert Stalinesque overtones here*

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Ammunition.


(I kid you not. If the right to bear arms returned as a progressive/left issue, it would really transform the electoral dynamic.)

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 04:00 (twenty-two years ago)

So:

CASCADIA / SHASTA REPUBLIC: Washington, Oregon, Idaho, northern California, demilitarized zone bordering Nevada

ALASKA: give it to the Canadians; they'd take better care of it anyway

REPUBLICA DEL NORTE: southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, waste contamination zone bordering Nevada; Hollywood versus Mormons FITE

NEVADA: a.k.a. New New Amsterdam; gambling, drugs, prostitution all legal, limit four guns per visitor

FREEMAN'S REPUBLIC: Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakotas, Kansas, Nebraska; grain, guns, no speed limits, live free and miles away from anyone else or die

TEXAS / COMMONWEALTH OF OKLAHOMA: you know there's no way to get through this without giving Texas its independance, to which many of us will say good riddance; they can have Oklahoma but obviously they won't want to screw with the state's boundary outline by actually annexing it

WAUKEEGAN (GREAT LAKE NATION): Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, northern Missouri; most desperate bids to develop near-obsolete production economies

ATLANTICA: New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Washington, D.C., West Virginia; most desperate legal loopholing to accomodate new-economy service industries -- a nationful of pharmaceutical marketers, consultants and stockbrokers, plus West Virginia to keep things interesting

PEOPLE'S MARITIME REPUBLIC: formerly known as "New England"

DIXIE CONFEDERACY: sorry about that war, it's all yours now; have fun with your laggard economy, embarrassing educational system, and never-ending race politics (NB don't make us invade you again)

FLORICUBA: in the wake of Castro's death, Floridian speculators pour money into Cuba in the hopes of creating a dual ocean resort nation to rival the tourist draw of Nevada; they are backed by other post-U.S. nations in an effort to counter the ambitions of the increasingly militarized Cuervo Republic, and Floricuba soon flourishes into a grand beautiful nation where formerly-Cuban dissidents rage against politicians' constant pandering to the entrenched authoritarian Gray Panther Party

HAWAII: have fun out there!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, somebody needs to make this a reality. Good work, Nabisco!

donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The People's Republic is going to have at least as many problems with New Hampshire as Shashtastic Elastica will with Idaho.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

w uno plurum

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Laggard economy - not quite!

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck Nabisco that was brilliant :-)

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Reminds of the much better (and funnier) version of this book I remember from the eighties that was trying to predict something similar. Rah Nabisco!

Remember Amerika? Remember the great nation of Heartland? ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Stephen King's The Stand?

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

props 2 nabisco... brilliant. but i fear that, in the spirit of balkanization, western canada would separate and become an oil-rich, redneck sheikdom -- in other words, a serious threat to the fledgling cascadian utopia.

mbosa, Tuesday, 1 October 2002 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Texas would be like Brunei or Monaco or that tiny African island nation The New Yorker's calling the new Brunei or Monaco.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Judis/Teixiera = ?

Nabisco you say that there is a new type of urban professional who works in health-care or academia or something else they have an education in, for the express purpose of conferring social benefits on other people or groups of people. If this is a new "trend" I haven't noticed it particularly. I know a couple of doctors, a schoolteacher or two, a social worker, a legal deffense lawyer... but they seem like a rare breed. Maybe this says something about my friends, I don't know? You point also directly contradicts Mr Q's.

"in an urban setting you're exposed to the efforts of government on a near-daily basis, and you're also exposed to the problems that government services are meant to target"

ditto if you work on a farm, in a coal mine, or rely on public assistance, or have to find after-school care for your kid, or if your sick grandma in Waxahatchie relies on prescription drugs in order not to go completely bonkers or fall over, or or or. Your breakdown of who might be inclined to be a "progressive" doesn't seem to correspond with the world I know - either the rural part or the urban part.

and yes, props on the New American Order :) (though I think if I lived in Kentucky I would have a problem being lumped in with Alabama...)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 19:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Teixiera = comic book artist in my world.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

heh I KNEW this sounded like a cartoon!!!!!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the comic - sorry, graphic novel, there was only one episode - with a split-up united states and a plot between the hero and some woman - and it turns out either one or both are robots? i know this sounds awfully generic but here's how you'll know: the art is INSANELY detailed and ultraviolent, you can see every shard of glass and every chip of brick as a car slams into the side of a building... teeth on the sidewalk kind of thing.... it may share a name w/an arnold schwarzenegger movie?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The Judis/Teixiera thing -- I may have gotten threads mixed up. I think they came into discussion on one of the Gore threads, maybe. Also note that I'm just summarizing their demographic argument! Possibly poorly, too, I don't know. The sense I got from their argument was that it was something to note and think about, but that in order to turn it into this momentous thing they sort of had to say "oh well if everything goes exactly this way according to these particular trends then yeah, total Democratic majority."

Though I'm not sure I completely buy your reversal, as the sort of rural liberally-inclined community you're describing seems to be statistically insignificant. I could be completely wrong about that. But it strikes me as a good description of Gilded Age through New Deal progressive base that hasn't really existed for a while.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

As for the Balkanization, well, I thought those were sort of the obvious jokes for what would happen to things? I feel like I've seen roughly that division used jokingly plenty of times. In, you know, the ones that don't also add lots of corporate republics to make that point: I seem to remember Douglas Coupland doing one that had a Monaco-style "Magic Kingdom" and Microsoft owning most of the Northwest.

Which, you know, there really is the Cuervo Republic now! It's officially really a nation, as I understand it: surely the world's first-ever corporate state!

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

To get back to the original question: officially I belong to the Green Party ('cause in DC it's the DC Statehood Green Party, something has to be done about our taxation w/o representation status!!).. but um, have a feeling that a lot of the progressive left is politically really stupid, like Ralph Nader's statement that one should vote one's conscience = let's insult the other 98% of voters who, presumably, have no consciences?
Currently I am attending a very liberal ivy league university, full of progressive lefties & if I was as rich as most of the undergrads (financial aid here = not good, only 40% even get any) I'd be happily living in a fuzzy progressive bubble world too.
Er, even the Democrats are having trouble connecting with most Americans (yr Bush-voting flyover zone), and my theory is that it's not so much a *message* problem, it's a *class* problem, a snob problem. Did anyone read the New York Times magazine article from two weeks ago about the Virginia-born Democrat strategist who tried to have the Dems' national committee sponsor a NASCAR team? The idea got nixed by the higher-ups, unfortunately. (I am not making fun, I think it was a good idea). Bascially, I think a lot of folks can tell when some Democrat politicians (AL GORE) are trying to play populist, all of a sudden, and it rings totally & completely false. The progressive left needs someone with the style of Bill Clinton - I don't mean necessarily his policies - but someone who's *real*.

daria gray (daria gray), Tuesday, 1 October 2002 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"The progressive left needs someone with the style of Bill Clinton - I don't mean necessarily his policies - but someone who's *real*" - instead they're getting Cynthia McKinney. The Green Party looks to follow the Reform Party down the path to flames, minus matching funds.

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"taxation w/o representation" -- try being an ex-pat American citizen sometime, damn it.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Daria is dead on when she says that progressives are politically stupid, but they just can't simply rely on some charismatic figure to usher in a progressive majority. It's not going to work because people are simply attracted to the personality and not the person's beliefs. This is what happened with Bush he was a able to appear real too many people even if his beliefs were too right -wing for the American public(study after study have shown Americans more open to Democratic policies than they are to Republicans). Granted, he lost the popular vote but the election was a statistical tie.

Micheline Gros-Jean (Micheline), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree that the progressives are stupid. My problem is that I also think the conservatives and the moderates are stupid.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave Q's right, the title of this thread is a little presumptious.

Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd reconfigure that last bit: progressive policy and ideas don't strike me as necessarily stupid at all. In fact, I think they depend on sorts of reasoning that are a lot less "stupid" -- or anyway less direct, less easily couched in soothing moderate language -- than other segments of the political spectrum. (Conservatism = king of easy access: social conservativism is intuitive, and it's not so hard to internalize the "free markets are always good" dogma.)

I don't think far-left progressives look any more stupid than far-right conservatives. The same thing is happening in both cases: a few very simplified but striking ideas -- free markets are great! vs. corporations oppress us! -- become a draw for a lot of people who respond to them but don't necessarily have well-formed or necessarily even sane views of the world leading them to that. The problem, I think, is that by their very natures the messages of dumb-conservatives are going to sounds more evil or selfish and the messages of dumb-progressives are going to sound more stupid and ridiculous: the former has a pre-formatted appeal that says "hey government leave us alone, we don't care about these complainers and don't think you should be spending our money on anything," while the latter has an appeal that has to be invented, saying "hey government there is X problem I find important and you'd better do something about it." (E.g., respectively, the folks at the Free Republic making arguments that the collection of federal income tax is unconstitutional and has no sound legal basis, and any given person who decides that the shrinking habitat of the egg-toothed wasabi-monster is the key issue facing Americans today: they're both dumb statements, but which sounds smart-dumb and which sounds "dumb"-dumb?)

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 2 October 2002 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco: there's some website or other that has a whole shitload of some of the more preposterous "legal arguments" (using that term very loosely) about the alleged unconstitutionality of the U.S. income tax. It's worth a look (if only I could find a link!) for a laugh or two. And the subject is such a dead letter in constitutional law that the topic rates at most a few pages in yer typical L-school tax law book. But still, the topic's fun for shits and giggles and for fucking with the Looneytarians and the Black Helicopter/Freak RepubliKKK set.

Re the Judis/Teixeira book: it, and its argument about suburban voters realigning themselves as Democrats is true as far as it goes (and New Jersey is the prime example of that thesis, so it's something I've seen with my own eyes). Still, I wonder how much of the argument comes from the fact that Judis and Teixeira, and the folks they hang with, fit in that demographic. And, therefore, they generalize that into being a general trend.

Dave Q's on the mark, too. All successful politics, left or right, progressive or conservative, concerns self-interest. Shit, Karl Marx, FDR and LBJ understood that, as much as Nixon or the folks behind the scenes of the Dubya WH. Why this simple fact can't penetrate the heads of those of the contemporary left is beyond me. It's like rebelling against the law of gravity, it's so basic.

Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 9 October 2002 06:38 (twenty-two years ago)

You can't necessarily determine one's political position by how they vote. There have been studies done that show that "progressive" causes are more popular than voting (or the mainstream media) would indicate. However people often vote the way they do because they're scared...or they don't vote at all (wonder why). You need *money* to act on your self-interest - simply voting is not much of an expression of self-interest if the parties you're choosing from are controlled by those whose self-interest overrides your own.


Personally, I have the politics I do because of self-interest, because I've found people who speak to my concerns about health care, labor rights, housing, whatever. I, or my family, am not some "other" that someone would only appeal to or refer to out of a sense of altruism : I have agency and can speak for myself. What I don't have is money.

However, I have the education and access to information that a lot of people from my background don't have.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 9 October 2002 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)


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