Would you want to be reincarnated?

I think the sastric concept of reincarnation rules out the possibility of remembering - "The Personality of Godhead said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!" -BG 4:5. Feel like this is crucial to the whole deal really

Yeah, this version of reincarnation is different from the one put forth in most dharmic religions as I understand them. I was trying to avoid the whole "if I don't have my memories what's the difference/in what sense would this still be me" discussion.

I wanna come back as a field hockey stick

is there 50/50 chance your new incarnation is alive before you die?
i would looper/primer the shit out of that scenario.

no. i was thinking you are reborn at some point after your death.

There are two options here: after death, you can either be reincarnated as a different person (could be anyone) or face oblivion.

Between oblivion and reincarnation I can stomach reincarnation, but surely a more inclusive question would allow for a conventional afterlife response?

in some sense reincarnation is equivalent to dynastic power accumulation, so the caveat of not being able to choose the station of your next birth is circumvented.

for example, you can max out your credit cards and buy some treasure, bury it somewhere, then leave it for next incarnation. you're also given kid prodigy powers by default.

lot of things to consider. i think it would be horrifying to have my mind trapped inside an infant's body though, unable to move really.

i think it would be horrifying to have my mind trapped inside an infant's body though

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1353756!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-bynes5-0523.jpg

poor amanda bynes.

i chose reincarnation fwiw. oblivion has never been comforting to me in the way epicurus says it should be. i'm with philip larkin on this one.

i think it would be horrifying to have my mind trapped inside an infant's body though, unable to move really.

well presumably you don't have your full conscious mind in your new birth, you're an infant. Krsna is otm, the conditioned soul cannot pierce the veil, no remembrance is possible

either way I choose oblivion

I feel like there needs to be an end to things

i agree with that in theory, but the looming reality of death is still a pretty big problem for me. i might feel ready to die 700 or so years from now.

I feel you. I think more about death than I ever used to when I was younger, fear it more (both for me, and others I know).

Do you ever stop to consider the fact that one day not only will you be dead and everyone you know will be dead too, but that the planet will probably fall back into the sun and the entire universe w

underrated, if we're allowing reincarnation, I guess we can't really say that "presumably we are not fully conscious at birth".

In a non-Rosicrucian reincarnation way, when I was a child, I used to be scared of reincarnating as a rock or someone like Joseph Merrick.

I rely on science, so I choose oblivion.

i choose the re-absorption of my soul into the infinite godhead +eternal basking in the presence of my creator

sounds sweet, but also (if i am being honest with myself) similar to oblivion to me because it would involve ego-death. i have a hard time imagining myself as a part of something larger.

Mordy, that kind of reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' Stoic philosophy/metaphysics (e.g., energy stuff).

reminds me of spinoza

Spinoza's good stuff. When I think of Spinoza I think of the rock being flung in the air and gaining consciousness somewhere up there, already moving.

(But also the whole pantheism thing, of course.)

hells yes spinoza is good stuff. one of my favorite details in ulysses is the small "thoughts of spinoza" book on the blooms' bookshelf, that bloom is enamored with to the extent that he sometimes tries to discuss spinoza's ideas with uninterested dudes at bars and stuff. spinoza himself -- his humble life, as a lens maker -- is very poignant to me as well, especially considering the radicalism of his ideas. i should try to read one of his major works for real.

My friend and I used to try to talk to uninterested dudes about our ideas at pubs, as well. It was so much fun, but I think everyone thought we were being asses and pretentious, no matter how successfully we expressed ourselves in their vernacular language. I think they got annoyed because we made them think whilst inebriated.

Had totally forgotten about Uly. I'm so busy with non-literary stuff as of late, it is kind of depressing.

Baruch's heavy stuff, though. I feel it's necessary to set aside a few days to just digest and contemplate all of it, otherwise it's not that worthwhile, no?

Isn't it late over there, already? Go to bed, dude! :P

Oblivion is so awesome, why would you want to go through this crap again?

This is a special way of being afraid
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anaesthetic from which none come round.

Here's something to consider: if you are choosing reincarnation because you fear death, then you are essentially sentencing yourself to another lifetime's worth of fearing death.

From what I've read, the most enlightened souls choose reincarnation because even though they can escape the bonds of life & death, their compassion is so great that they choose to go through it all for the opportunity to help others.

in the mahayanan traditions this is how it works, and buddhas who choose to be reincarnated are called bodhisattvas.

i think you are right that accepting oblivion would be the only way to conquer one's fear of death, but i kind of think that all of human life, and especially the cultural elements of human life that i am so interested in, are all about deferral and evasion... working against the grain to try to make the world livable, even if there can be no universally acceptable "reason" to go on living. my simplified reading of derrida is part of why i believe this.

I think trying to grapple with these issues through contemplating literal reincarnation is a dead end, though
because literal reincarnation is a complete game changer.
Like trying to come to terms with global warming by thinking about a perpetual motion machine.

kind of. all reincarnation could do is extend your life, perhaps for a few thousand more years until the human species dies out. the abyss will still be waiting for you then.

in jewish view of reincarnation you can come back as a non-human. the most regularly cited version of this is the assertion that the gefilte fish jews eat on shabbat are the reincarnated souls of righteous people (it's a great merit to be eaten for a festive shabbat meal).

that's an interesting take -- that coming back as a nonhuman might not be punishment. being a gefilte fish, in many ways, is probably easier than being a human.

also, acc to some traditions all jewish souls were present at mt sinai during the revelation. rav papa, a convert to judaism from the talmudic era, wrote that even the souls of converts were present at the giving of the torah.

does that include the jewish souls who were not yet born?

and in that case -- if future jews were said at that point to in some sense already exist -- what implication does that have for the idea of free will?

it includes all jewish souls. basically any jew alive today is not a new soul but was a soul present at mt sinai. what implication would that have for free will? you can still chose to fulfill the mitzvot, or not.

interesting. what i meant was that it seems that in this scenario, the course of events is already in some sense known -- god will know who will be born, who will convert, how many jewish souls will find bodies etc. so the power humans have to affect the course of history would, it seems, be limited.

ok but that's a general question about reconciling god's omniscience w/ free will- i don't think it's specifically an issue in this case

that's a good point. that question is always looming in theological discussions though.

what implication would that have for free will? you can still chose to fulfill the mitzvot, or not.

― Mordy , Tuesday, August 6, 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One of the problems with soft determinism/compatibilism is precisely this: if external forces can influence the self, how can the self's will be really free? To be more transparent and directly refer to what you say of Jewish thought, the self needs to reconcile a deterministic belief of God, His omniscience, and will be affected by consequences brought on by Him, whether good or bad.

It's the "you can't have your cake and eat it, too" of philosophy.

Being fully conscious at birth would be the grossest fucking thing ever.

"oh hai I guess you're my mum in this life, hope you'll understand if I don't look you in the eye for the next 40 years. Also, waaah."

totally. but the alternative....

is death

If you were fully conscious at birth, you could choose to sleep through the ordeal.

if you are able to fall asleep at will, whenever you feel like it, i want to be reincarnated as you

it's just a matter of tiring yourself out before the event, do some jumping jacks with the umbilical cord etc...

Unborn babies don't get tired they just leech energy from the host body

if external forces can influence the self, how can the self's will be really free?

But where does the self end and the external forces begin? Thoughts, emotions, and mannerisms are all things that seem like defining traits of a 'self', yet the truth is they are often just as uncontrollable and out-of-the-blue as things traditionally thought of as external (traffic, weather, whatever). All it takes is 5 minutes of attempting to quietly sit and concentrate on something to realize just how pervasive and penetrating these 'external' forces are.

Oblivion please. The whole thing terrifies the shit out of me but the idea of going on forever makes me feel physically sick.

why would reincarnating be forever, and not just time lord limit of regenerations?

Well it's hypothetical I suppose but I'd rather there not be the potential.

I was thinking you'd have to ride it out to the end of the human race, which implies that your last few lifetimes will probably be kind of shitty.

I'd prob take that. We all secretly want to see the apocalypse.

But where does the self end and the external forces begin? Thoughts, emotions, and mannerisms are all things that seem like defining traits of a 'self', yet the truth is they are often just as uncontrollable and out-of-the-blue as things traditionally thought of as external (traffic, weather, whatever). All it takes is 5 minutes of attempting to quietly sit and concentrate on something to realize just how pervasive and penetrating these 'external' forces are.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 6 August 2013 19:11 (25 minutes ago) Permalink

What you say sounds a little disingenuous, because God's force is not the same as a traffic light's 'force'.

Basically, the external forces you speak of are tangible, palpable, or at the very least, exhibit a more or less direct influence in nature.

We can't speak of God (and His force) in the same way.

But let's say you are. This means that the will is not free, either. My clarification above only serves as a "caution" (as an agnostic), in case there might be an argument or discovery out there that could reconcile God and free will.

But let's say you are right.*

there are a number of approaches to reconciling God + free will; this is one of the major theological questions (at least in the texts that I'm familiar with). here's a bunch from the medieval jewish era alone: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Free_Will/Responses/Medieval.shtml -- there are more modern ones as well (i'm partial to a few chassidic interpretations that collapse the separations between divinity + man). the rambam (maimonidies) gives the traditional answer that godly knowledge and human knowledge aren't compatible. i've seen versions of that that suggest god exists outside of time so that the context in which we make our decisions is free, but time is not linear and can be observed all at once (which is to say the moment of free choice and the moment of knowing are simultaneously and unique). etc. i'm not trying to be comprehensive here bc it's not so relevant to the thread - i'm still not sure why reincarnation makes the question any more difficult than the one theologians have been discussing for thousands of years?

I am reincarnated.

http://www.backyardbite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Cafe-Gratitude-Menu-BYB.jpg

don't want to come back as this, though!

Oh reincarnation totally, I want to see what happens next with the world.

I think if you reincarnate enough times you become a god or a demigod at least.

you can pick up a lot of neat skills with that amount of time. dozens of languages.

it'd be sweet, i'd imagine

I went to Cafe Gratitude once. That place is bizarre.

does the on-deck circle exist out of linear time? if we return to a timeless source can't we come back anywhere on a material timeline? the sequential nature of consecutive incarnations being a trick of our physical universe? or else all my incarnations could be viewed as occurring simultaneously from that perspective.

i just wrote the butterfly effect iv, no?

you could have "past" incarnations that haven't happened yet on this plane maybe. or "future" incarnations in earth's past.

the non-linear incarnation restriction will seem especially harsh when commercial time travel is perfected in 2036.

it'd be good to get yr stock portfolio sorted out as early as possible

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Do we have to be incarnated as a person?

yeah. I sure as hell don't want to come back as a RealAudio file.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Didnt vote but wouldve gone with reincarnation, why wouldnt you?

God/free will talk kinda snuck in and took over unrelated thread imo

A nailbiter! I liked this discussion.

I srsly just wondered for like ten secs why you would call me a nailbiter

It's an Americanism.

The deepest possible insult in my country

it had occurred to me tbh

we are the reincarnation we see

Sentience is a tough row to hoe, but someone's got to do it. This seems to be a well-established trend. Whether you view it as replication or reincarnation seems like a detail.

tough row to hoe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l0BAOqBp08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGI8YNa5f-M