Self-Deprecation: Classic Or Dud

As a defence mechanism self deprecation is the last line before the ego takes over. False self-deprecation, like false modesty, is not only really annoying but really obvious. That said it is not a bad way of working out ones insecurities, watch your ego battle with your self deprecation for the prize of your public image.

A little bit is necessary for everyone I think. Also if you are really good at insults (like what I am) a bit of s-d doesn't go amiss. I can nearly always think of the best insults for myself in a given moment, so often feel free to get out top funny put downs.

Don't mind me - I'm just patting the dirt flat.

Example of place where it goes wrong: sinister mailing list. B&S fan writes bad post then says 'oh well i've bored you enough already so shall just click send... love and raspberry shampoo, pansygirl'.

Obvious flaw: if you can really see how boring and inept your post is, why send it?

Interesting to reflect that some people might think themselves sufficiently good at stuff not to be s-d about it.

eg:

- Tom E is a good writer on music (though often with lamentable opinions) - is he ever s-d about it? ('Oh, well, another bunch of my wretched musings for you to rip apart...')

- Robin C knows incredible amounts re. UK parliamentary politics - does he ever say 'I'm afraid my feeble political knowledge disqualifies me here', etc?

- Ally C96 is fabulous footballer - does he ever say 'Och, ah'm no very guid at the fitba, me'?

I'm not sure of the answers.

And stuff I think I'm good at but get embarrassed by other people saying I'm good at, especially if they seem to think I'm better than I think I am. So I wouldn't say "well I'm a rubbish writer", but if somebody said "you are my favourite music writer" I would be pleased but also think "well that's a bit silly".

I think, actually, that ILE has helped with the former - making myself write about stuff other than music directly is a good way of confronting some of that stuff. Or at least a better way than confronting it obliquely through music crit.

But enough of my yakking - let's boogie.

Yes, I can see this - I mean, it's sometimes as though all your music writing has been evading, yet silently yearning to address, those key questions 'How tall are you?' and 'What's the worst thing ever to come out of your ass?'.

Taking compliments *is* hard. I like the "oh, you're too kind [and now we change the subject]" sort of line.

Complimenter: You're beautiful. Me: You're full of shit. Complimenter: Excuse me? Me: You're full of shit. Why do you have to talk crap? God.

Etc. So now it goes this way:

Complimenter: You're beautiful. Me: (absolute stone silence, slight grin, look away) Complimenter: Um, is that okay? Me: Yeah, I guess so.

It's really not a perfected technique.

By the way, re: your comment on men who find Japanese girls sweeter than you, there's a looooooong way between 'sweeter than Kate and Ally' and 'geisha' (which is a job, not a demeanour). Who's doing the racial stereotyping now?

i mean, what's the point of you?

or not. it is an issue for which there is no right or wrong approach perhaps.

This is what I keep trying to remind myself when Stevem takes it upon himself to tell other people off for their neuroses.

The weird thing is, I was actually in a very very good mood this morning, but it is starting to sour now.

The trouble is, Stevem keeps pinching my butter.

Unless I missed a meeting somewhere, the inevitable answer must be: paranoid delusions of grandeur.

I agree with this, it's very complex though. At present I think I am right to fear it, as to be like that (again) does not seem to have any merit at all. Also as has been pointed out on here in the past I am very very concerned about what other people think, perhaps too much (though I am adamant that some degree of concern is integral to the cohesion of social operation) and perhaps reactions like the one above illustrate that fear rising to the surface due to (unintentional/unaware provocation). I do not apologise for it though. Again, no point.

Sure, some people "milk it" or start using their problems as a social crutch. But that doesn't mean that all self-depreciation, or in some case, I think actually *self examination* is necessarily a pointless or negative exercise.

x-post, Marcello, SHUT UP, are you intent on proving again and again every single negative thing that is getting said on this thread?

Well, how do you imagine people get to that state? Maybe by being slapped and punched about for the first 20 years of their life, laughed at in school, derided for having a funny face/funny eyes/legs/whatever, a life spent being trodden on and shat upon, instils that way of thinking within them to such a degree that no one, however much goodwill they might have, could ever hope to remove it?

As with everything else, it Ain't That Simple.

having said that, i would say that my understanding of self-deprecation is probably closer to brimstead's

also, CaAL otm

self-deprecation in an "aw shucks little old me?" vein can be fine, like any shtick it's really about the who, the when and the how often

self-deprecation if people are using it to mean a semi-permanent, kneejerk running yourself down is a thing i work hard to try to escape from because it's literally very dangerous to my mental health and everything that follows on from that

i'm quite fond of the cultural form of self-deprecation in old Chinese and Japanese books (and presumably in the cultures themselves) where everybody always has to say some version of "even tho I am very untalented" just before they volunteer to do something awesome

slightly off topic, but I get sad when people say “I hate math” or “I’m bad at math”. I kinda believe that EVERYBODY can be good at math and would totally love it if we changed how it was taught!! Don’t ask me for more specifics…

I've made a deliberate effort to stop doing this. If someone gives you a complement, don't insult them by denigrating your efforts, just say "Thanks, I appreciate it." And I realized it's generally unappealing and not constructive...it usually comes off as false, fishing for reassurance, or just as low self-esteem. Rarely does it read as appropriately humble, although I do know a very small number of people who just have very high standards and an unsparing assessment of themselves in relation to those standards. It's still annoying to try and give them a complement...no one really thinks they're amazing (except assholes), but just try and appreciate the moment, y'know.

i used to "humorously" self-deprecate a lot, and that kind of colors my thinking on that

i got used to being put down a lot, so i started doing it as a self-defense mechanism... i'd call myself shit in the hopes that it wouldn't hurt me as much when people put me down

doesn't work.

one of the other things i did was i'd put myself down as a way of fishing for compliments. "no, you're not shit, you're great"

i used to argue with people when they would compliment me, i now feel that was a pretty rude thing to do so i just say "thank you" politely. if someone's saying nice things about me i accept that they're being sincere and respect that, even if i don't personally agree with them

i don't think i really _know_ self-aggrandizing people. people who talk about how fucking amazing they are and how great they are at everything. like sometimes i _think_ i'm great at everything but to me, when someone makes themselves an exception, whatever direction that's in, it's reflective of a low sense of self-worth. so i kind of don't differentiate between people saying they're better than everyone else and people saying they're worse than anyone else

the other thing i've consciously decided to do is that i don't parse humor. whenever somebody says something i take it as if they mean it. because if you don't mean it, why would you say it? it's one of my autistic traits, even though it _is_ a conscious choice.

for me it's also, like, there's a difference between saying bad things about _yourself_ and being critical of things you've said or done. even then, though, "that was stupid of me", if i just made a mistake, that's not necessarily stupid. the whole "no stupid questions" thing. and there _are_ stupid questions. a better way of saying "stupid" though would be "not even wrong", questions that fundamentally fail to understand what the issue at hand is, or are fundamentally disrespectful. "have you stopped beating your wife yet?", for instance, is a "stupid question".

hugboxing, i do think hugboxing is a real thing, where people just constantly give each other support and validation to make themselves feel better instead of dealing with actual problems. even then, though, i think it points to fragility... if someone can't take criticism without feeling totally worthless, that's, to me, "honest" criticism isn't the answer to that. like the first thing it's important for me to be "honest" about is my emotions and how i deal with things. would i say those things to others? and it used to be that i would, my ex-wife used to describe me as "brutally honest". it wasn't a compliment when she said it, and in that particular thing i think she was right. honesty is no excuse for not being, you know, respectful and kind. being respectful and kind to other people, that's very different from hugboxing, in my book.

the other thing about self-criticism is like does it lead to positive action. for instance, i could make a joke about how i never shut up about trans shit. well, ok. should i shut up about trans shit? i ask myself that question a lot, whenever i talk about trans shit, and my answer is generally "no, not really". sometimes the answer is "your trans shit is not relevant or useful to bring up here", and in those situations i don't bring it up. if i bring up trans stuff where it's _not_ relevant, where i'm talking and not listening, making a joke of it at my own expense doesn't negate my having behaved socially inappropriately. so even though i _feel_ like i never shut up about trans shit, bringing it up, lampshade hanging, i feel like that makes a social situation _more_, rather than _less_ awkward. like self-deprecation is inherently shifting the focus to me, even if it's only on a small level or for a moment.

slightly off topic, but I get sad when people say “I hate math” or “I’m bad at math”. I kinda believe that EVERYBODY can be good at math and would totally love it if we changed how it was taught!! Don’t ask me for more specifics…

― brimstead

well what does "good at math" mean? like i failed calc ii three times in a row and then i changed my major. some people might say, well, you made it as far as calc ii, that's not "bad at math", and i see it more as i failed a math class three times in a row. that's "bad at math" to me. i _could_ probably pass calc ii if i put my mind to it... a lot of circumstances have changed for me since then. i've also gotten older, and i have a harder time learning things. i got cognitive limitations. i mean i'm bad at running too. like in terms of muscle coordination, muscle coordination is really hard for me. when it comes to kinetic movement i'm developmentally disabled. i'm doing physical therapy and i find i have to work really hard to move my body in ways that are easier for a lot of people. since physical exercise is so hard for me, i do hate it. i figure if i can be bad at running, if i can hate running, other people can be bad at math.

aw it actually took me three tries to pass calc ii and I give a ton of credit to my study partners and just having a study group in that case. calc ii, at least where I was in California, does seem to be sort of the first big steep curve. Math got super cool and interesting once I got past that, and I can see all that grinding actually helped me mathematically model things and shit. Oh well that’s enough

let me just change EVERYBODY to just “a not insignificant amount of people”

left school early with zero achievements and considered myself preternally shite at math. Then later after learning basic stuff like decimals/fractions/transposing equations, because of pesky work qualification requirements - I needed to pass some exams. realised I was no better or worse than anyone really, but there is no way I could have passed any exams when school age. My ability to focus on tasks back then was not good to say the least.

I have met quite a few self-aggrandising people and they are the absolute worst, if i'm in a bad mood I feel like I want to extend that to confident people in general, how do you get through this world with a breezy confidence if you aren't a psychopath? Very sus, not to be trusted.

As for bad at maths, I managed to get 5% on my 1st year A-level maths exam, even after six months of fruitless private tuition I was unable to understand what differentiation and integration were. My mother and my son are both borderline-genius maths people, but it very much skipped a generation.

i got used to being put down a lot, so i started doing it as a self-defense mechanism

I think this is where I got this from. if I call myself a loser then I've beaten you to it

I can see how it's annoying if it's fishing for compliments and now I will probably worry that's how I'm being perceived if I do this

it is partly a humour thing too I guess, in some ways it's good to laugh at yourself a bit

one thing I worry about with this is I tend to exaggerate the ways in which I'm awful which is fine if it's with someone I know because they know it's a joke but there have been times when I've met someone and later on gone "oh shit I hope they don't think that was all true"

people have told me I put myself down a lot and maybe that's bad

(I am pretty good at math(s) though)

I think it’s pretty weird to say that feeling good about yourself (self confidence) is “sus”

That’s leaving very little room for not being miserable.

I'm not being completely serious there, had hoped that was clear, apparently not

just... that's the vibe I get from really confident people

I tried self deprecation even though i didn't actually feel that way at all but it turns out im brilliant at it

—Alan Partridge

Feeling good about yourself is great.
Having zero awkwardness when interacting with other people is bizarre and inexplicable to me.

xxp illustrative imo in both self deprecation & self aggrandisement there will be varying degrees of the ever-present element of irony so it’s never gonna be one thing

ito receiving compliments the one I get a lot from strangers is “I like your nails” & I always assume they’re just being nice because not that many dudes paint their nails, I respond with immediate & genuine “oh thank you!” but half the time follow up with a reflexive “don’t look too closely haha”

feel like everyone's talking about three different things as if it's the same ,but....

compliment-fishing isn't self-deprecation, to me, it's a manipulative meant to elicit a pre-determined response from someone by making them feel awkward if they don't respond in that way. I enjoy when it backfires because I hate the practice.

in terms of humor, when I was in better mental health, it was a healthy way for me to acknowledge my shortcomings in a humorous way, so that I could say "man, this part of me sucks, but now that I can laugh about it, maybe I can fix it".

I legitimately have zero confidence in most things except my job and judging the merits of heavy metal singers. I struggle with confidence with things I'm actually good at (singing/theatre), which is why I never really achieved my full potential in either, even though I'd also say I'm proud of my abilities in both nonetheless. this lack of confidence is, paradoxically, why I've had a tendency to overcompensate by being extremely hard-headed when arguing, because I'm fighting my own doubts and fears so it's a battle on two fronts. that's nobody else's problem, so not excusing bad behavior here.

the people I used to envy the most were people who could occupy a public space and come across as well-adjusted and comfortable in themselves and their abilities and shortcomings.

taking compliments, otoh, I have an easy time w/ because it was something nice somebody said and it's the polite thing to do. my feelings on the accuracy of the compliment don't matter.

I take cooking very seriously in a slow learning curve way and my neighbour once said I can always smell good food from your side, are you a chef or something? No I'm just a bumbling happy amateur with more enthusiasm than talent in the kitchen I said. Wasn't fishing for compliments and was just telling it like it is. Rejecting the compliment is fine if it isn't true. I don't want a compliment I haven't earned yet. Not even sure if I want it when it's earned either!

I don’t think not lying that you are a chef even counts as self deprecation tbh

I don't think it was a literal question, but you know, treat it like that if it makes you feel better about posting something like that!

i lied about my prowess on Super Mario Bros once, still feel bad about that

That does make me feel better thank you calzino

xp 1000 years of Kaizo levels for that transgression, Neanderthal

xp

your dull personality-free snark actually makes me feel worse tonight, whoever you think you are impressing, well gl to you.

i've become a bit more thoughtful about like - true i don't wanna bore everyone with my struggle, but also, i should be able to speak about it. i used to not speak about it as much but then it would come out in weird ways. so that's a balance - but also, recently it's become super important for me to challenge my neg. beliefs in the moment internally, which i don't know why but that was not really possible for so long. hoping that gains momentum.

genuinely wasn’t being snarky calz! Just that the actual yes/no question “are you a chef or something” is kinda leading most of us down the self deprecatory path

(& my 2nd post was just making a joke cause I wasn’t sure if you were actually mad)

no I'm not mad, just thought you were an arse about an honest post I made. Forget about it all> I'm a fucking idiot!

but not a bad cook tbf

the point I was making in the post is true. I'm very serious about cooking and have been for years. But always tell ppl I'm just a dabbler at best. The truth is I'm actually a good enough cook to work in a some kind of shit professional kitchen and have much scope for improvement. But never really admit I'm a decent cook these days.

I have zero doubt you are a much more than decent cook dude!

well, i'm definitely not. haha. but i've gotten good at salads! listen i'll take any compliments from myself i can get

xp
you can both go cook yourselves!

pfft maybe if I get myself delivered from hello fresh with very clear instructions

LOL

it blew my mind when I realised raita is just minced cucumber/garlic mixed into greek yoghurt, with a few spices and chopped coriander. The processed raita in jars is criminal. Sorry, let's get back to math

this sort of recipe is huge in Lebanese cuisine as well, it's not specifically referred to as raita but with ours you also include mint. served with all different kinds of things including meat, amazing.

some raita spooned onto chapati with some very hot curry/rice + fries and even a bit of salad. that's my food heaven.

Great post Z, brimstead otm.

Ironic self-deprecation only works if counterbalanced with a touch of ironi. Self-aggrandisement imo. Too much of either and they can't both start to smell like the real (bad) thing. Also too much of either and the bit can get very old very quickly. They're like salt and pepper: a nice garnish on a life, but a bad basis for a personality/meal/are we still talking about cooking?

xp consider this a raita reply

Case closed, now onto the more interesting question. Compliments: classic or dud?

Classic when given in the form of an "otm" or "good posting". Dud, any other way

don't love em

otm is pretty much all I can handle

Great posting

😂😂

Case closed, now onto the more interesting question. Compliments: classic or dud?

Classic when given in the form of an "otm" or "good posting". Dud, any other way

― H.P

my experience is that this is a really gendered thing

when i was presenting as a cis man the feeling i got was that compliments were implicitly an expression of sexual desire. one of my biggest frustrations in the Before Time was not being able to tell a woman "wow, that's a really pretty dress", that if i did that it'd be taken as me trying to get into her pants, when really i just thought it was a pretty dress that looked good on her. i guess that puts me in the "classic" camp. if i think of one of the primary benefits of my gender transition being "oh i get to compliment women platonically".

thinking about it maybe that's why, in my experience at least, men tend to avoid complimenting each other. instead you get this constant trash-talking, guys constantly putting each other down... as jokes, to build camraderie. the way guys build camraderie is by insulting each other. i guess i can see the appeal. it's just not my style.

that said it's not like the way women do things is "clearly superior" or anything like that. we do sometimes weaponize compliments against each other. guys will sometimes use insults as compliments, and women will sometimes use compliments as insults. there's also definitely an element of self-deprecation. i remember seeing this old amy schumer sketch where women respond to being complimented on their appearance by violently denouncing any concept that they might be anything other than repulsive. i thought it was a really funny sketch. it was kind of like the "four yorkshiremen sketch", but i found it more personally relatable than that sketch.

the thing is that as a woman, to the extent that i'm perceived at all (speaking as a middle-aged woman, sometimes other people don't perceive my existence), i'm judged _strongly_ based on my appearance, on how attractive i look. a huge part of my "male privilege" was that i could dress however i wanted and nobody cared. well, "however i wanted" within the fairly strict guidelines of "socially acceptable men's clothing".

sometimes i put a lot of work into trying to look attractive. that's often seen, particularly by men, as being vain or "fake". i disagree _strongly_ with this assessment. i think putting down people for putting effort into looking attractive is a pretty fucked value. anyway, i am often judged by my appearance, often in ways that are pretty unfair. i'm middle-aged and fat - in some people's minds (particularly those of men holding fish on dating sites), that alone makes me _extremely unattractive_.

when i put a lot of work into my appearance, being complimented for that is valuable to me. not only have i done a lot of work, i've exposed myself to a lot of negative judgements, spoken and unspoken. being affirmed is important. that's how i'd frame it, honestly. not compliments. affirmation.

it's kind of funny, actually. when we're out in public, my girlfriend does get more compliments than i do. she's an extremely large trans woman who doesn't have an abundance of passing privilege. the compliments aren't _insincere_ at all. she does look attractive! her outfits are great! there's just, i think, a greater recognition of the negative judgements trans women get than there is of the negative judgements cis women get. it's seen as important and valuable to affirm trans women - which it is! - in situations where affirming cis women isn't always seen as important.

anyway. compliments! affirmation! love them!

well. one last thing. men giving compliments being taken as a sign of attraction... well, that's useful when one wishes to express one's attraction to another person. for lesbians, expressions of attraction do tend to be brushed off platonically. i like the way Fruity Nessa puts it:

"Being a lesbian is hard because when I hit on women they just think I'm being friendly. I could be as forward as "Your ass is amazing. Sit on my face" and she'd be like "Thanks girl! It's the jeans! 70% off at American Eagle if you're interested"

in general though i'm very pro-compliments.