Animation Snob Thread (no Disney, no Pixar, no mainstream anime, mention Family Guy and you get kicked out a window), puppet films are allowed

I think animation is a severely, depressingly neglected medium. It has incredible expressive potential and somehow the best animation seems to happen in crappy socialist or communist regimes, while America and Japan churn out loads of crap. I think the main problem with mainstream animation is how as a result of getting visual consistency and working on tight deadlines, everything looks quite bland most of the time. I'm not totally against this method, it makes sense for humour cartoons, but I think when you talk about GREAT animation, you should mostly be talking about amazingly animated animation.
I think in an ideal world, most horror films would be animated.

I'm not that big a snob, I think Disney's Pinocchio is brilliant; Sword In The Stone, Sleeping Beauty and quite a few others are good, in fact I'd say most had some things going for them.
I think Pixar films are generally quite good. I like Ratatouille a lot. But I still find 3d animated kids/family films frustrating because however nuanced and subtle they try to make the body language, it still seems too exaggerated, robotic and uniform. Everyone moves/acts the same in these films and they can only really overcome this with all the other elements, but usually humour.

I say no mainstream anime but Miyazaki and Satoshi Kon get a pass.

Youtube and Dailymotion have lots of incredible stuff but I'm not sure I want loads of videos embedded because a page full of videos is a nightmare for a lot of peoples poor internet connections. So I might just name the videos or slightly distort the site address so you can change hxxp to http.

Search: Brothers Quay, Svankmajer, Gyorgy Kovasznai, Keita Kurosaka, Nikolai Serebryakov, Ideya Garanina, Nina Shorina, Allison Schulnik. Frank Zappa's "City Of Tiny Lights" video.

watched don hertzfeldt's "it's such a beautiful day" yesterday, kinda like "synechdoche new york" but done w/ stick figures and brakhage-ish camera effects — really wonderful

Well, also search Yuri Norstein, obviously. Tale of Tales and Hedgehog in the Fog are required viewing.

Saw Ari Folman's latest, The Congress, at PIX. Pure crap. So happy with itself it actually has a character describe it's own style as 'a genius designer on bad acid'. Avoid like the plague.

I was going to mention Norstein but I forgot his name. I forgot Roland Topor stuff like Fantastic Planet too.

I was kind of interested in The Congress but I heed your warning. But I cant promise I'll avoid.

Even though it isn't firmly in snob-land, the recobbled cut of Thief And The Cobbler on the directors youtube is good. The ending with the thief bouncing around the tank at the end is fucking incredible.

Nina Shorina's "Room Of Laughter" here. One of the best films I saw last year. A prime example of what animation can do for horror. If you have ten minutes to spare, change the hxxps to https...

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZZY9K-WIc

i watched Millennium Actress for the first time recently. i thought it was really good

My ranking of Kon

Paprika
Perfect Blue
Millennium Actress
Paranoia Agent
Tokyo Godfathers

I found Paranoia Agent quite disappointing and a bit of a slog at times. I don't think the balance of detective intrigue with surreal nonsense worked that well.

anyone seen "oneamisu no tsubasa" aka "wings of honneamise" or "royal space force: the wings of honneamise"? the description in "the anime encyclopedia" makes it sound really interesting:

Shiro Lhadatt is a dropout, a wannabe pilot who wasn't good enough to get into the navy air corps. Instead, hejoins the only organization that will have him, a ragtag group of misfits called the Royal Space Force. Underfunded, undermotivated, and under extreme pressure, they race to get a man in space, but nobody believes it's possible. Nobody, that is, except for Shiro and his would-be girlfriend, a religious zeal­ ot called Lequinni. Space is waiting for humanity as a whole, but the project to reach it is the result oftwo nations' political and military agendas. Our hero joins up for all the wrong reasons but eventually realizes that he can turn the "fake dream" of his government's PR campaign into a real dream, and he becomes the first man in space. Despite the political skullduggery that follows, he refuses to let go of the hope that the realityjust might redeem all the failure and sacrifice of history and give us another chance to soar.

One of anime's greatest successes and greatest failures, WoH is a pecu­liarly Japanese take on the U.S.-Soviet space race-an outsider's view of the gung ho ideals of The Right Stuff, moved to an alien world to emphasize the viewer's own alienation. Made by the young, fiendishly talented Gainax collective, it was so expensive and so badly received in Japan that it didn't break even until 1994.

One of the shining examples of how cerebral and intelligent anime can be, it's far removed from the sex and violence that stuffs Western anime catalogues. It's a film that rewards repeat viewings if only for the meticulous design of every aspect of its world. The language, the names, the maps, and even the telegraph poles all scream to be rec­ ognized as triumphs of world-building almost unequalled elsewhere in sci­ ence-fiction film. Even the minutiae of everyday life are knocked ever-so­ slightly out of kilter, with little touches like triangular spoons, unidentifiable foods, and sunrise in the north.

as for kon, if anyone hasn't seen the short "magnetic rose" (orig. "kanojo no omide" or "her memories"), definitely do so — it was directed by otomo katsuhiro (akira dude) and written by both otomo and kon

Wings of Honneamise is a great film, and I agree with the review that the meticulous detail of the alternate Earth is what really invites you back for another watch. The story is a bit rambling but doesn't get boring, although the main character can grate at times. The VHS copy I got hold of cut out that scene, so I'm not sure how that would have affected by opinion of the film.

I love Kon, though I think he got progressively weaker with each film, with PB and MA being the clear high points of his output. Paranoia Agent has a lot of good stuff, but it's far from perfect overall - the three stand-alone episodes in the middle are brilliant, but they break the flow of the ongoing story, and the series never quite recovers.

Mind Game is one of my favorite movies, and the director, Masaaki Yuasa released a Kickstarter-funded short last year that I love: Kick Heart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPe7E1YrY4

Is Akira a fit for this thread?

I really like the bit where one of the characters is using their weird psychic powers, and the way it's shown is a sort of invisible sphere radiates from them and crushes out the concrete wall around them - so perfectly drawn. And the city feels so thick and oppressive and realised.

And maybe 'The Thing' if we extend animation to include puppetry.

What I want to know is has anyone been making stop motion stuff since 2000?

Henry Selick

The Thing? I assume you aren't talking about Carpentar's film?

I think Akira and any other Otomo projects should be fine for this thread. Steamboy does kind of veer into the kid/family territory like Miyazaki (I'm just a bit wary of more conventional stuff flooding the artier stuff).
Ralph Bakshi might have to be squeezed in this thread too.

Fear(s) Of The Dark had some good stuff but I'm lukewarm about the film in general.

I saw Wings of Honneamise when I was something like 11 or 12 and it flew in the face of what I wanted at the time. Apart from the chase scene and the fight where he barfs on someone's face, it is a very very quiet film. In retrospect it seems a lot more interesting, I can still remember the low key mood of it.

Redline is a bit different, but I thought it was a mistake to have the film so story orientated. I think they should have cut the story and just kept more crazy race stuff. Now that I think about it, I was just like Wacky Races, but not quite enough.

Secret Adventures Of Tom Thumb seems like an obvious one for this thread too. It's quite depressing though.

BELLADONNA OF SADNESS
A Japanese classic that still hasn't had a proper western dvd release yet. It has very little in common with most anime, it has a sort of 70s psychedelic fashion illustration look with thin lines and watercolours. Kind of feminist fable of a once ordinary woman in medieval times who becomes empowered and oppressed at various points in the story but eventually becomes a martyr for womankind. Some really graphic stuff in there. There was quite a few bits I didn't understand the message but I'd recommend it a lot.

watched don hertzfeldt's "it's such a beautiful day" yesterday, kinda like "synechdoche new york" but done w/ stick figures and brakhage-ish camera effects — really wonderful

― clouds, Sunday, April 27, 2014 4:27 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this film rules

i think goku could totally beat akira

Anyone who cares about stop motion should wait for Hoffmaniada, which is an attempt to return to the glory days of Russian animation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MPe7E1YrY4

― james lipton and his francs (darraghmac), Sunday, April 27, 2014 6:38 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ken Ashcorp
3 weeks ago

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watched patlabor 2 for the first time in quite a while and was really impressed. love how the sustained muted, kinda flat tone and the music's great too.

http://youtu.be/1dmlwhaEEgE

I can't even tell you how disappointed I was at the lack of action when I bought it sight unseen as a teenager!

millennium actress is v beautiful, I think. definitely my favorite kon.

My favourite non-mainstream animation is probably The Illusionist, by the guy who did Les Triplettes de Belleville, based on an unproduced Jacques Tati script and set in Edinburgh.

does oskar fischinger count here?

would like to point out that a second series of Mushishi is airing at the moment, 8 years after the first series and so far has been just as brilliant.

I had never heard of Oskar Fischinger. From a brief search it seems to fit in fine. Isn't Stan Brakhage really animation?

Just dropping in to say that Mind Game is also one of my all-timers and I'll be watching the short later for sure, ty Dan I

Didn't realise Mushishi was back, that's great news.

I generally preferred Oshii's earlier films (Beautiful Dreamer, Angel's Egg, Patlabor 2) to his post-GitS stuff. Jin-Roh: the Wolf Brigade (which he wrote, but didn't direct) was excellent, though.

Dreamer has an awesome moment when the characters board a harrier and see their city closed off on the back of a giant turtle; that's tied with the "Unnatural City" sequence as the best Oshii sequence

Robert, just in case i'm the only one who flag posted you after the first sentence, it was me who flag posted you after the first sentence. cheers.

I love Angel's Egg.

Noodle Vague- why flag post?

tbf it was halfway thru the title. tbh, i think your premise is reductive, silly and distasteful. i celebrate yr right to disagree. the fp button is just underneath this post.

The Secret of Kells

i couldn't give a flying fuck about the premise so long as i pick up some tasty leads itt

Yep, same here

the new series based on the "Ping Pong" manga is worth checking out (there was also a 2002 live action film)
artstyle is kinda ugly but really expressive, directed by Masaaki Yuasa (Mind Game, Kaiba, Tatami Galaxy)

http://i.imgur.com/Gp6t8JL.gif

the yuasa short upthread was cool, if not in the same league as mind game

i think we had an animation thread a while back, but i totally agree with the sentiment in the original post. animation's been hijacked for exclusively kid and family movies, when it has so much more potential.

remake jaws as an animated film, plz.

great animated films that aren't necessarily for kids

Noodle Vague- I'd prefer you disagreed with me in detail. I said I enjoyed many Disney films and Pixar films are generally good, so unless you work on Family guy(which just like many sitcoms, I still find a quarter of the jokes funny enough) or some associated cartoon, I don't know why you are offended. Surely not by my belief that animation has been neglected as a powerful expressive medium?

Maybe you are a 3d animator? I'm willing to be proved wrong about the possibilities of that style but from what I have seen so far, I think the strength of cgi is for rich colour and more abstract things, but I've always found character animation to be lacking. But I've been moved all the same by Pixar films.
I said I'm not completely against uniformity in animation because Simpson's, Futurama and South Park at their best work just fine.
I just think it's sad that the medium isn't really associated much with ambitious animation techniques.

I hesitated before creating the title because I don't find offending people constructive but since the word "snob" was jokingly in the title (who honestly calls themself a snob?), I thought it would be obvious that I wasn't being an elitist drawing a line in the sand by the end of the first post.

So what part of my premise was objectionable?

I mentioned it on the Adventure Time thread, but Masaaki Yuasa is directing an Adventure Time episode, too!

I just think it's sad that the medium isn't really associated much with ambitious animation techniques.

do you not think that this is tantamount to saying that writing isn't associated with ambitious techniques because the bulk of what's read isn't "ambitious"? by definition, within any medium, the less popular stuff is less popular.

i was just mildly snarking tbh but really, you can have an "i love this" thread without defining it in opposition to all that tawdry mainstream "that" that you don't dig. and it will probably make your appreciation all the stronger.

also you dismissed several nations' worth of animation in yr first two sentences which is like, gtfo

title wld've been fine with just the first three words, parenthetical and tbh 1st post just makes yr thread sound rockist son

but i guess you're guitarist from pink floyd right i guess i shouldn't expect more

and it is just silly to associate 'ambitious animation style' w/non-mnstrm stuff, have you seen One Piece that shit's ambitious as h*ck, and bigger studios have more freedom and currency to experiment on a big stage

and then 'letting in' miyazaki and akira cause you feel like it, come on. this is just taste, don't try to project all this other mnstrm/non-mnstrm stuff

but otherwise cool thread look forward to recs

Again, I think my elaboration shows that I don't at all mean to completely dismiss major animation houses, America or Japan. But I don't think it's totally crazy to say that a lot of their output is very poor and that there might be legitimate things in them to object to. A lot of Japanese animators are totally scathing about the general animated output of their country.

I'm guilty as charged that I made a sensational title to get attention and I probably shouldn't have because it is a rampant problem on the internet that I'm not proud to take part in but again, I thought there was enough in the first post to backpedal from the oppositional element.

The oppositional gut feelings come easy when you're bombarded by something that you think has significant or even major problems while so many great things are marginalized. Particularly when it comes to comics. I'm sure most people here have called things "total shit" that in a fairer, more constructive mood they would admit to having some good qualities. Ideally I'd like to criticize everything as if I were talking to the creators face to face in the most constructive, bluntly honest but encouraging way I could.
I'll often say I hate Friends, Big Bang Theory and Family Guy but a quarter of the jokes do make me laugh and some other things work occasionally.
I often get angered by superhero comics and movies but I have genuinely enjoyed them on occasion.

I like to try and be reasonable as possible but then I remember the time I tried to talk about wonderful animation and its potential, with people responding "no I don't like Family Guy, Pixar, Avatar or anime", RAAAAAAAAAGE!
I don't like snobbery and elitism because I think it is anti-intellectual in the way those things make people oversimplify, when the fact is that almost nothing can really be reasonably summed up as trash or shit. But if you really seriously care about culture, have starry eyed dreams about people believing in aspiring to greatness and raising standards, you'll know how easy it is to fall into dismissively oversimplifying things.

I assumed flagging posts was reserved for serious transgressions like horrendous racism, sexism, violent threats and legal boundaries being crossed. Not passionate disagreements about culture.

aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh nvm

Zachlyon says "bigger studios have more freedom and currency to experiment on a big stage"

Examples? Fantasia is the only time I can think of a major studio being really experimental. But there is loads and loads of low budget avant garde animation. A lot of people decide to avoid or leave big animation studios because lack of freedom. The big companies have the resources but how could they compare in this way with Piotr Kamler and Gyorgy Kovasznai?

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

Forgot to mention Watership Down and Plague Dogs. They are quite special to me.

^^^these are incredible and their making is also p incredible, michael rosen was a true one-off. watership down also one of my favourite films ever

It's got a bunch of short films too

whenever they announce something like this, a 2K Blu-ray remastered from a new 4K source, do you feel like waiting for a possible 4K UHD release?

(geez, i need to check my bookmarks more often)

I'm not really invested in 4K but I'd be surprised if it came, though some 4K releases have surprised me.

the thing is in these cases, you know off the bat there is a 4K master sitting on a hard drive somewhere, ready to go, since they used it to make the 2K version. that doesn't mean there will be a physical release, of course, but it usually means it will at least go to cable/streaming at some point in the future

Another trailer for Seed In The Sand. Voice acting by Gitane Demone and Suzy Gardner!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh2X8uraXnA

Completely blanking on the name of an animator who did really quiet noir-ish, realistic but vague stories in maybe pastels (lots of vivid red), maybe the 80s and 90s but that's not much help. Hope I find him again because I didn't have the patience for his films when I discovered them, some of them were quite long but never feature length.

isao takahata movies are great and much better than miyazaki ones

there are moments where i too like grilled cheese sandwiches more than i like springtime boat trips

Richard Williams is new to me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OALIUJ-yie0
This one is quite brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E11d5H9ca4

https://www.awn.com/news/restored-1987-romanian-animated-sci-fi-son-stars-coming-blu-ray

Hey @Kickstarter can I get a retweet for my brutal stop motion horror film I’m finding on your benevolent platform? Here’s the trailer! https://t.co/E4K2aoF05G pic.twitter.com/e4XBsWPNU2

— the art of Skinner (@SKINNER) March 13, 2023

Son of the Stars sounds intriguing.

upcoming release from Deaf Crocodile, looks incredible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Al2hDDoVQ

Nice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITstgdnmp6Y

Today at the ICA:

https://www.ica.art/films/jirtdan

Animation seems like the most depressing creative industry there is. From all the behind the scenes talk I've heard, japanese industry is almost always exploitive or people are working on something they don't care for at all.

― Robert Adam Gilmour

i was just watching some videos about minky momo, there are people who say that the episode where she becomes an animator is the bleakest episode in the series, which is impressive given that there's an earlier episode where she gets HIT BY A TRUCK AND KILLED.

i'm increasingly into mirai mizue. "dreamland" is the closest representation i've seen to what the world looks like to me as an autistic/adhd person.

https://vimeo.com/273493052

also, have the little nemo pilot films from the '80s been posted here? amazing stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51iTj6Jbgt8

This survivor's reign series is frustratingly both cheap and expensive-looking; really great and uncanny visuals sabotaged by spoken dialogue that conjures voice actors cycling through multiple takes emoting in a booth (though to be fair that's true of most "adult" animation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWQH8cMpWTU

Pinchliffe Grand Prix apparently still holds the record for highest box office of all time in Norway; it is shown every Christmas Day. Available via Apple in the UK. All I can say is: Wes Anderson could never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUuQwPOfQ1M

insisting that yorkshire television made the only good TV ever would be a solid and possibly a sustainable bit (bit tougher with kids TV maybe)

― mark s, Tuesday, 9 January 2024 20:39 (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yorkshire Television produced Doris (created by Hilary Hayton, who also made Hilary Hayton), someone has recently uploaded several episodes to youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lf7vJTQnYo

Nice video about Christiane Cegavske (Blood Tea & Red String, Seed In The Sand) and Robert Morgan (Stopmotion) and superhuman patience. It does seem like the only animation I'm interested in now looks like it taken at least 4 years and 2 nervous breakdowns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKV3kH6YmLg

Space Patrol tv series on Talking Pictures. like Fireball XL5 but not Gerry and Sylvia Anderson and slightly cheaper looking. I'd never heard of it but the models are good and the puppets walk semi-convincingly and the music / fx are by F C Judd

Watched Wendell & Wild with my family last night and apparently I'm an animation snob. The wife and kids were irritated that I didn't like a cheap looking Nightmare on Christmas style knock-off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUNh1smzXmM
first feature length Quay Brothers film with puppets for the whole length?

Absolutely going to watch the hell out of this when I can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgZccxuj2RY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRj_8k20NWI
The Golden Bita 1976 Bulat Omarov

I forgot about this channel because it gets deleted every year by the copyright holders and has to upload the same stuff all over again, the new channel name always starts with "Eus"

Having posted the trailer above, I forgot to rave here about Flow when I saw it last month -- and then saw it again -- but you can rent/buy it digitally today. It was my film of 2024. Not just animated film, FILM all around.

Yes! Let me also recommend The Colors Within and Look Back.

xpost Looks beautiful. Torn between renting (and supporting it that way) and streaming it when it comes to Criterion (and supporting it that way).

Flow won the animated Golden Globe on Sunday - first indie film to do so, first Latvian film to be nominated for ANY Globe — and I’m hoping for an Oscar nom to push it back into theatres for a week to catch again. (Have been sending international release date FYIs to ppl since seeing it first time.)

Nightmare on Christmas style knock-off.

It’s some beyond-next-level snobbery to be mad at the director/co-writer/co-developer of Nightmare Before Christmas for originating, co-writing and directing a film with a style that reminds you of Nightmare Before Christmas.

I had no idea it was made by the guy that directed Nightmare Before Christmas, so sue me.

I still think the movie sucked and I don't see how that makes me a snob.

apparently I'm an animation snob.

I liked Flow a lot.

Ah. I'm really bad with names. I couldn't have told you the name of the guy that directed Nightmare Before Xmas, only that it wasn't Tim Burton.

It wasn't just that it seemed like a Nightmare ripoff, it was cheap looking and clunky. I liked no aspect of this movie. The fact that Henry Selick directed it makes it even worse because I would have expected something better from him.

Maybe he wasn't given the right amount of time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f19hF7-nT8g

Flow was wonderful. For the most part I try to buy Criterions that aren't on the Channel, but I'll be getting the Janus Contemporaries disc of this one. (I guess Flow will be in the permanent collection?)

I did a lil lol at the reference to that Fast Show sketch in the new Wallace & Gromit

Hell YES.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/mar/03/oscar-flow-best-animated-feature

Gwen And The Book Of Sand from 1985. New to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKqTT4-f6ao

I really loved FLOW. Truly magical.

Haven't seen. How badly will I cry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC96jCkUVl8
I posted a segment of this years ago but here's the whole thing. The Lubos Fiser music absolutely crushes me, just incredible

https://archive.org/details/the-international-tournee-of-animation-vol.-4-1991

Despite the URL, this is six volumes of the series of animated shorts, 1988-1994. I had the first two...some really great stuff, though the rips from VHS are pretty mediocre. Csaba Varga's "Augusta" claymation pieces are sentimental favorites.

That's really cool ty

This Soviet claymation take on "Little Red Riding Hood" is pretty rad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofQIK3FlOZ0

Anyone seen this? Worth seeking out?

https://deafcrocodile.com/products/the-tragedy-of-man-standard-edition

It's good but nowhere near as beautiful as Son Of The White Mare

The late Run Wrake's YT channel has been very busy lately

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF23xbTkFk

While we wait on the follow-up to Flow, a delightful thing from its director involving his own recently adopted little cat:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DT2-iAoDSRp/

Real animation snobs doubtless already know this, but this short (and the substack that posted it) are A++ delightful.

https://animationobsessive.substack.com/p/a-film-for-all-times