Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

With Zeppelin, the sound is the thing. Tom, you should approach Zep's body of work the way you would Dr. Dre's 2001. Sure, Dre is not the greatest rapper, but he knows how to lay down rhymes that compliment his brilliant productions. I would argue that the same holds true for Page & Plant. The massive, bottom-heavy sound that Page captured with his studio work reaches perfection only with Plant's voice floating on top.

All the while feeling vaguely smug and intellectual because of the Crowley and Tolkien references. Bleargh.

Fred's not totally wrong though -- the Zep had their occaisional moment, but they're still overrated beyond belief. Early Black Sabbath could have them for breakfast!

But the best reason to hate Zeppelin, as Nicole pointed out, is that they were a band who sung about J.R.R. Tolkien. I fucking hate Tolkien. J.R.R. fucking Tolkien is not rock 'n roll.

I loathe 'ver Zep', their sweatiness, their ponderousness (is that a word?) and their pretension. I'm very used to listening to music for the noise. Led Zeppelin make a nasty noise.

I don't think I've ever heard a band rock harder than the Roots Radics circa '81, and they sounded *beautiful*.

Tim

With regards to the man's general worth, though, we must differ. ;-)

1) There is nothing even remotely intellectual about Zep or their fans; their music is populism at its finest.

2) Hard to imagine what could be more smug than picking on teenage kids in middle America.

3) Why listen to Zep when you can listen to Sabbath? JOHN BONHAM. Black Sabbath, while masters of the riff (and Reality), had an anemic rhythm section. How many hip-hop groups have sampled Bill Ward's drum parts?

Zep ARE pretty sweaty, though.

Fred's right when he says Robert Plant's voice sounds like an escape (specifically, from the stuffiness and politeness of Britain when Plant was growing up) but, you know, you could say the same thing about fucking Merseybeat, for fuck's sake. While at the time they were hailed as an astonishing sonic progression from *that* lot over six years, Zep remind me of what Tom and I once said about the Beatles' hangers-on; you can't deny that they sounded like an escape and a new dawn for certain people listening to them, but that doesn't alter the fact that the music is terrible.

Yeah, Tom's nailed them good and proper.

Why listen to Led Zep when you have Black Sabbath? Because only listening to one band is boring unless it's The Cure or Prince.

but seriously (ha ha ha)! tom is oblivious to many of the things that make zep great, unless he's fooled me all of this time and is really into virtuosity and locking rhythm sections. ;) mark, as you say the music isn't really made for or by intellectuals. the concept of "suspension of disbelief" comes to mind, checking your brain at the door, etc., and if you're not up for that then, let me say it again, maybe zep isn't the band for you.

and what's all this talk of sabbath? are the same people who are criticizing robert plant's voice listening to a band fronted by ozzy? certainly, sabbath has created some incredibly sludgy and heavy riffs (and are probably currently a bigger influence than zep) but, as mark says, the rhythm section is weak and, God, i just can't *stand* ozzy. more power to you if you can!

And Pitchfork can kiss my arse ;).

i write paragraphs about them because i force myself to think about them: normally, zep isn't one of those bands one rattles on about. if i were listening to the music and *thinking* it'd be a conscious effort.

and pitchfork is *still* the internet king of music reviews, if you ask me. maybe -- and this is only a *maybe* -- you'd be in their league if you wrote a review, oh, more than once a month (or when the latest merritt album comes out).

The ironic thing, I've just realised, is that my reaction to Led Zep *is* pretty much 'instinctual' - as I said to Fred in chat a few days ago, the difference is that I'm basically more of a punk than him. So I like Motorhead, he likes Zep, and both of us look around for rationalisations as to why the other one is less rockin'. Having grown up on the British music press and their horror of anything approaching prog or dinosaur rock, my gut instinct is to mistrust the virtuosity and bombast of the Zep: so my negative judgement is based on that 'unthinking' reaction.

Of course, I *could* think myself into liking some of their stuff, but as Fred says, that's hardly the point...

Busta Rhymes - 'This Means War' samples 'Iron Man'

Cypress Hill - 'I Ain't Goin' Out Like That' samples 'The Wizard'

And I'm sure that 'Behind the Wall of Sleep' has been used on a record too, Okay it's not quite 'When the Levee Breaks' but it's still got a fucking good, if loose, groove

Who has more original, harder, stranger, colder, more bombastic riffs than Zep?

That said: Stairway to Heaven may be Zep's pop masterpiece, but pop isn't what I want out of a hard band. I've seen them twice but after the first album, they could only play arrangements of their multitracked recordings. If Zeps extraordinary arrangements bear any responsibility for the over-produced so-called power ballads that came after, I curse them. Finally, Jimmy played the coldest blues based solos ever - his solos bother me every time I hear them but, maybe that's a good thing.

as for zeppelin, to paraphrase cole gagne on branca, it does not matter what anyone thinks about them any more than it matters what anyone thinks of the sun. they were my ecstasy and education from ages 10-14 or so. i can't stand them most of the time now, after punk happened long ago for me but there are always precious moments when i can listen and get into it again. the reasons for loving them and hating them are both equally obvious and *don't matter*. zeppelin simply are.

curiously neglected so far:

i) the obvious vulnerable and androgynous qualities of robert plant's voice and persona. *this* is one item that separates them from standard macho beer-drinking rock and makes them valuable to misfit teen boys (god knows none of the *jocks* were listening to them in my gr 8 class).

ii) the tolkien's not there to make the fans feel smug and intellectual. fuck, when do most people read tolkien? gr 6? gr 7? it's there because, along with the music, zeppelin really aimed to create a fantasy-world and to achieve an otherworldly experience. item number two.

listening to just the cure all the time though. gah.

The best Zep, though, were "Physical Graffiti" and "Presence." The first LP of the former is the best funk record ever recorded (better even that Parliament/Funkadelic). The second is just great.

Kris.

Fuck you all

Later bands would imitate the screamin and screaching guitars; however, the rythm sectio could not be duplicated. Furthermore, the sound of led zeppelin was a result of a combination of many influencs,including indian classical and celtic. Later bands' sound was a result of musical interests within the band that were limited in genre.

All of the musicians in the band are of the highest quality. JImmy Page ranks as one of the best guitarists ever, and the rythm section of John Paul Jones an John Bonham is unrivaled. The songwritig duo of Page and Plant was also one of the best ever.

Contrary to the beliefs of some people who have posted, Led zeppelin set records for sales of tickets and albums. Their live performances shattered tickt sales records, due to elongated versions of songs such as moby dick, which is also an example of Bonham's amazing talent. They are also right behind the beatles in total record sales. HOwever, the beatles had 21 albums, where zep only had 10.

Now could somebody clarify how zeppelin isn't good, because i just don't see it.

I like Plant's voice.

But the stuff I think I most enjoy from them are when they were just plain goofy and/or eccentric. I'm thinking "Boogie with Stu", "Hats Off (to Roy Harper)", "The Crunge", "Hot Dog", etc

Can't think of too many weak moments from Zep, actually...

I can understand those who don't like them becasue of the Prog/Dinosaur overtones, but simply noting that they were in that field would negate the accusations of them bieng anti-intellectual and lacking skill.

Sure, some of their songs are *fairly* simple, but on the whole, they almost always managed to do something unexpected or quirky within the context of Loud Blues.

They're one of the few Rawk bands I can stand, because there's always something ungraspable about how they came to what they ended up doing. To me, if you can figure out how a band got to their end product (and could replicate it yourself), why bother listening to it?

Zeppelin's music, if you listen to it, was exstremly inventive and layered. Led Zeppelins actually musical influence can actually be felt most from everyone from Prince to REM to Jane's Addiction to Smashing Pumpkins. Not lame hair metal, lol. On the other hand all Black Sabbath ever influenced was moronic crap like death metal, or black metal and a bunch of low IQed, beer swilling "metal heads" with a mentality to "break stuff" and worship the devil. Please.

Also the comments about Led Zeppelin not being intellectual are ignorant in my opinion. Is Mozart not intellectual? He certainly did not have many lyrics about war or polotics did he? What was intellectual about Zeppelin was there musical ability. The world was filled with tons of good and lame bands that where "politcally consious", i think they where and still are a breath of fresh air. I like some Punk rock, but if you are that non-ecclectic as to be turned off to great musicans because of some silly ideal or scene (like punk) then your a idiot.

So, did Sabbath influence Iron Maiden or Judas Priest? Probably, but not in the way they might have liked. There may be a reason Maiden - a band that does few covers - did one of Whole Lotta Love, but never a single Sabbath tune.

So, did Sabbath influence Iron Maiden or Judas Priest? Probably, but not in the way they might have liked. There may be a reason Maiden - a band that does few covers - did one of Whole Lotta Love, but never a single Sabbath tune.

Ron

So they influenced R. Kelly, too!

Anyband with Bonham at the back was on to a winner (unless it was Bonham's own band) and Page and Plant ain't so bad either. Actually, I recall Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull fame telling Melody Maker back in the day that with his lyrics and Zep's music they "could have made quite a good little rock and roll band." Ha ha ha ha ha.. sorry, I laugh my ass off everytime I hear that.

Gimme Physical Graffiti everytime. I think it's actually too good, if that's possible, which it isn't, but it feels like it is when I listen to that album. Does anyone else know what I (don't) mean?

just watch the last 20 minutes of Goodfellas

Barney Hoskyns's Led Zeppelin: The Oral History does a great job covering this.

― jbn, Wednesday, 5 March 2025 15:27 (four hours ago) link

The last chunk of that book is the literary equivalent of the zoom in on Ray Liotta's eyes as snorts a line

Jimmy Page: During my session days, someone had taken my riffs without acknowledgment or payment, it would have been deemed theft. The same standard must apply to AI.

(He's right, but for a split second, I thought this was an Onion post when it came up on my feed.)

Does seem to come up a little short in the self-awareness category there.

but he invented the blues!

lol

Large Language Model (She's Just a Woman)

Robert Plant singing "Black Dog" with the Preservation Hall Jazz Band last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czMuuOmVN_U

Awesome

Watching and enjoying the 1971 documentary on Apple TV. Six episodes into it and still no mention of IV (released in November of '71). The seventh episode is centred on James Brown and Black artists--assume LZ will turn up in the final episode (unless they deemed its impact was in '72, but Exile's all over the place).

I don't think that series has any LZ. Probably licensing issues.

Could be, especially with their own documentary on the way at the time...will save all this for a different thread, but also wondering if they'll get to heavy metal and art rock in the last episode, both very much ascendent in '71.

the last ep is all Bowie, Lou Reed, Iggy I think

Was their ever a separate thread for the show beyond the two soundtrack polls? Would like to post when I finish.

Such a great series. If I remember Bowie and Bolan are throughout one of the first three episodes.

Last 1971 post for me in the LZ thread, promise: yeah, Bowie's a pretty steady presence throughout, and there was 5-10 minutes on Bolan in one of the middle episodes.

https://mtervodesign.com/products/led-zeppelin-albums-cassette-retro-accent-phone-case?_pos=2&_sid=0401168b7&_ss=r

Man, Bonham's drums in the middle part of "The Rain Song" are just so subtle and graceful, a side of him you don't get to hear that often. I don't think he plays brushes on anything else Zep does. Hits a gong with his forearm? Sure. But brushes? Nope.

“La la” doesn’t get enough attention. That drum fill

I was listening to disc 2 of song remains the same in the car the other night

1) the world was just too full and stuffed with rock grandeur, can totally see how this masterful “dazed and confused” fantasia make critics and cool hipsters vomit… good lord it’s a a damn epic goth masterpiece, though. Breathtaking.

2) Moby Dick <3, if anybody get bored of endless bonham breakbeats, I pity them.

"many" is word that only leaves you guessing
guessing bout a thing you really ought to know

Finally watched the doc “Becoming Led Zeppelin”

it’s a bit run of the mill in terms of what’s said, like it’s very “stay on-message”

but man i loved the footage & loved that they showed whole performances! that was very cool. plus that film from their first Bath Festival was neat! the stage looked like a ping pong table lol

and idk it is kinda nice to see the 3 gents talk at length abt those early years, with a bit of bonzo in the mix too.

it was uh, nice?

nice is good!

xp I don't know -- yes, the archival live footage was great, and I was glad the filmmakers gave plenty of space for the music itself to be played in long form. And yes, some of the interview content is "nice" and would have made for a very pleasant podcast episode. I thought Page in particular had the most interesting bits to say and gave good windows into his thought processes and how some of the songs came to life.

That said, as a doc it's pretty bad imo. The visual storytelling is really quite poor in a number of places. They patch together all this random stock footage of the 60s. So if one of them is saying "we took a car ride," they show a video of a random car driving down a street in black and white. At one point there's a clip show of every military conflict that happened in 1967 (or so) soundtracked by one of the songs on the debut, I guess to remind us of the context in which the album was created. But there's little discussion of the other music that was being made at the time. Then there are the scenes where they've clearly edited footage of a live performance to make it look like they're playing the song the filmmakers wanted to feature, even though it's quite obviously not the same song. And then the movie ends quite abruptly!

I'd have liked a lot more interviews -- with contemporaries, friends, historians, critics, whomever -- to fill out some of its rougher bits. And I thought the editing and visual storytelling could have been significantly better.

I was thinking of watching this on my work trip this week, may just skip to the performances.

I'm not sure the guitar with a violin bow thing is as cool as Jimmy Page thinks it is.

no it’s extremely fucking cool

yeah it is cool as fuck

Of all the options, “jermaker is playing at bar smh

“

at bar 2826

D'Yer Make 'Er is a great tune.

thats right

It’s a fucking great song. The drums.

the quiet outro of "over the hills" with the sudden slide guitar sunrise at the end... what a sweet goodbye from a song.

iirc it's JPJ using the whammy bar on his Castlebar clavinet to emulate a pedal steel sound.

Jimmy's final G has some intentional(?) echo/slap-back reverse reverb on it which makes JPJ's swelling chord feel even more satisfying.

wow that’s sick!

I did not know clavinets had whammy bars.

yeah that rules

I just saw the Becoming Led Zeppelin doc as well. These interviews were from 2018, I think and a rough cut was shown at the Venice Film Festival in 2021. Why the epic delay?

Also, what do we attribute the group’s total refusal to discuss their behavior in the 70s to? Shame? Pain? I get Karac and Bonzo’s deaths were maybe part of it. But those were almost five decades ago, and just about every other band has told their stories (and Zeppelin’s) multiple times at this point. What gives?

The filmmakers told me they always intended to cut the movie off after the first couple of records:

“The Royal Albert Hall show, this triumphant homecoming, is Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, Edmund Hillary raising the flag atop Everest,” adds MacMahon. “There were other lunar missions, other trips up the mountain, but they’re not as interesting. It’s just the same thing, repeated. And with Zeppelin, the story becomes a cycle of another album, another tour, and various darker forces coming in. After you become the biggest band in the world, your experiences tend to mirror a lot of other groups; your trials and tribulations become universal, and more boring. Our film, though, is about these specific people, how they did what they did, how they got to this point. They’ve never told this story before, until now.”

I'd settle for a Peter Grant biopic.

Also: that’s bullshit. We knew about Band of Joy, Jimmy and JPJ’s session work, etc. The story that’s never really been told—at least by them, as opposed to Richard Cole (who does merit a quick mention in the documentary)—is all the shit that happened AFTER they became the biggest band in the world.

I get not wanting to admit to some of this. But again, they’ve just avoided talking about any of it at all. Which seems odd.

Klosterman’s interview suggests some of it was just Jimmy being Jimmy. But it seems way more secretive than that.

Perhaps there will be a sequel called Being Led Zeppelin. But I doubt it.

I figured that since everything seems to be a triptych these days, there'd be both a Being Led Zeppelin and a Leaving Led Zeppelin.

Dead Zeppelin obvs

Uh-Oh, We Became Led Zeppelin

Watched it as a captive audience through airplane ear buds, and thus no bass and a tiny screen. So I was left with the interviews as the focal point, and it was a letdown. Page is so avuncular now, the least sinister of the three, which seems... inaccurate. Was odd to keep mentioning marriages without mentioning groupies and drugs. Page emphatically saying "Dazed and Confused" was written by Jake Holmes, as if from a legal settlement. The filmmakers could have made something richer by exploring the contrasts of attitudes between 1970 and 2018 - sex as a free-for-all rather than power imbalance, drug as rebellion rather than a trap, and musical quotation as folk tradition rather than plagiarism. But that's more cultural peril than they'd want to take on.

...which is to say, Zeppelin's ongoing ubiquity is a major part of why we've re-evaluated that stuff. Weird to think the sketchiest thing about them used to be the dabbling in satanism.

least sinister, i dunno...I thought JPJ came off as a real mensch in the doc

Re. Page’s avunicularity, he seemed to be positively beaming in this doc when discussing the studio work, using avant-garde techniques to stymie the label’s desire for single releases and various mixing choices. His charming explanation of panning was as if from a Studio Engineering 101 class, and his lovely description of the moment they played together for the first time … the whole thing sort of seemed like he was relieved to the point of being overjoyed to be finally answering questions about the music instead of … well, everything else.