King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

I've heard great things about RED, but I've never heard it. Possibly due to the stigma of John Wetton. Even though RED predated Asia by veritable eons, I cannot erase the crime.

Red is ace, and has been discussed here before. The instrumental tracks are the ones that sound less dated - especially the title track and its 'devils interval' backstory.

But I think Wettons vocals on Starless and Red are lovely and I disagree that the placid quietness of them is just 'static' - there is a line on one of the tracks on Starless... 'My Home... was a place by the sea' which I just adore and I've never known why - but it kept popping up in my head when I had my Steve Erickson reading binge a couple of years ago and it has that same mesmeric Erickson quality of difference and strangeness but not different and not strange (ooh thats a hopeless description: Somebody save me here!).

There are three formulas involved in the Larks/Starless/Red tracks - and I think I like them all.

There are the dream-like songs I've already mentioned - all playful repeating echos of other things, and that strange wailing sound which I always imagine is one of them corrugated tubes you wave around your head - but presumably is just frippertronics (it turns up on evening star too). I always thought they were an influence on Nirvana on Nevermind's quiet moments but haven't seen it confirmed that Cobain knew this stuff.

Then there are the agressive ones - Red, the loud bits in Larks part one - the bit in Fracture where it suddenly changes speed. For a prog band they sure conjure with an magikal energy - that stuff sounds great - its a shame that neither the post rockers like Mogwai / Aeorgramme / etc or the Nu Metallers studied that stuff to avoid making their mistakes. Its not just a feature of that period of Crimson though, 21st C on the first album, the bit nicked from Mars on the second have that feel too.

The bits that are left form a third grouping, mainly instrumental and much more passive - but definately not static. The quiet bits of Larks pt1, Trio, Night Watch. Larks overtly references Vaughn Williams and thats a good suggestion of what's going on, Debussy and Satie too. But there is a lack of optimism in those tracks that doesn't sit well with the grace of those influences. They are bleak and hopeless feeling too.

"Easy Money" has this (on the live versions, not the studio version, alas) great (for prog rock, mind you) bit of lyric:

"So I argued with the judge, But the bastard wouldn't budge, 'cause they caught me licking fudge, and they never told me once, you were a minor..."

Mark- Apparently Red is KC's favourite album ever. He also loved the raincoats, having written some brief notes for the reissue of their excellent debut. Even though nirvana sucked he had good taste (though I think that he only said that to piss off the metal fans that bought his music).

Agnes Moorehead, obviously. :)

Ladies of the Road and Formetera Ladies are the clunkers I refered to above btw. Though I think Sinfields worst lyrics are on Still.

Truly unfathomable, I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it with my own eyes. However, it explains much. There's a site where I help write reviews for prog rock albums, and we once received a snippy letter for dissing the Wake of Poseidon album (or at least, not being fanboy-ish enough towards it), and the person, opening up by claiming we had "less wit and culture than an ant" (yep) used much of the material found in the Wake of Poseidon chapter as their defense of the album and its depth. Maybe it was even The Keeper of the onyx-embolden'd-husking-jewelled-warthogs website himself! :)

Cue your golf swing.

Wow... Mind = blown.

Very cool! thx ned

"that's some really wild stuff"

In The Lounge of the Crimson King

More on Belew's fourth-rate David Byrne impersonation - "I repeat myself under stress, I repeat myself under stress." Geddit? Hilarious, eh? Anybody who finds that remotely amusing in any way should be avoided.

Dave Q really killed it on this thread, huh? I like lots of KC but I hardly ever find myself playing them. When I do, it's either Larks' Tongues or Beat.

I think Belew's a pretty terrible lyricist but that was kinda the point, right? The lyrics weren't supposed to stand out. It was all about the music at that point.

Met this guy tonight who said he'd done tarot card readings with Adrian Belew, back in '83 or so

the story just got weirder from there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSVAUjd5QI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Fripp speaks

excellent...wish it was longer

2009 Crimson, with Porcupine Tree drummer as second drummer, was awesome live.

so, who is buying the 13 CD, 1 DVD, 1 Blu-Ray of Larks' Tongue In Aspic?

http://www.dgmlive.com/news.htm?entry=3916

Just registered for DJM live site just so I could hear a sparse guide track for "Islands" the song. Boz sounds like he's singing into a cheap condenser mike, but otherwise it's quite lovely.

'Islands' is the worst album ever made by anybody.
― dave q, Friday, February 15, 2002 7:00 PM (10 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

NO.

its kind of weird to imagine that King Crimson only played a fixed amount of concerts when they were active. it feels like they're able to just create more and more live bootleg material at will, even if it was phyiscally impossible for them to have played that many dates.

So many of them are pretty dodgy quality though, aren't they?

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/lk/l/w/dd360157ea8e506661983ea7336800bc/4330188.gif

classic:

'released in three separate editions to satisfy the merely curious and the expectant collector'

so, who is buying the 13 CD, 1 DVD, 1 Blu-Ray of /Larks' Tongue In Aspic/?

http://www.dgmlive.com/news.htm?entry=3916

they're not really stems though aren't they? I thought the idea was they were just using alternate takes of every instrument, it's an interesting concept but yea might be a little more interesting if every note these dudes ever recorded wasn't released in some form anyway

would be funny if they did release the stems though. make your own remixes! see how long they can stay online before we find them!

they aren't stems, they are full remixes but explicitly they are very 'open' remixes (ie: in many cases the drums have been removed or scaled way down)

Didn't notice that they released a live Beat album, gotta listen to that.

Aaaaand ... the live album absolutely shreds, it is so good!!!

Belew’s voice is in remarkable shape

Man would love to see these guys just once

its pretty wild how he sounds pretty much exactly the same as he did in the 80s, I know there are a lot of singers whose voices have aged well but his hasnt aged at all. I'm also stunned by how good Tony Levin still is

yeah it's a really good document of the tour; mastered a little hot but the performances were pretty scorching so it kind of fits.

Man would love to see these guys just once

huh Belew/Harrison Remain in Light tour just announced for Australia, next year - which I feel makes a BEAT tour very unlikely, Tony Levin is 79!! how much longer does he wanna do this stuff

having said that it looks like they play Thela Hun Ginjeet as part of these shows so I will take that at least

just one Beat gig in London, or anywhere UK is all I ask....

they're scared Fripp would turn up and force them to do 8 hours of rehearsal/soundcheck before they could go on

There were rumors of Europe and Asia in 2026, but I can only imagine the number of moving parts. Still, I don't see why they wouldn't do it if they could, they all seem to get along and by all accounts the tour seemed pretty successful. I'd be a little surprised if they didn't tour North American again, too, but yeah, no one is getting younger.

yea I think even they were surprised by how successful the tour was

Hadn’t heard about these elemental mixes, listened to Lizard last night. Hadn’t played the original in years, I have worn vinyl left behind by an old roommate. It’s my least favorite of the first four, so many of the parts I was hearing were unfamiliar to me. Maybe if I was more well versed in the original I’d understand the point of this. But “Happy Family” as an instrumental? Nah.

I find it pretty interesting, like seeing a band live and they whip out a new arrangement of a familiar tune

one thing I dug about this one is you can really hear Fripp's playing which on the album itself was mostly buried. there are some really great parts on it. especially on "Indoor Games". lots of crazy synth bits too. I can't actually remember what made the album.

Steven Wilson's remix of Lizard is the best version to my ears, imo one of the best remix/remaster jobs ever in terms of how much it really improves on the original. SW really leans into the chaos of that album which is odd because his own work is so controlled and sterile to my ears. He talked about how there are bits which weren't on the original, recordings even Fripp didn't know about, all of which got constructed into this new mix...hearing the "Elemental" mixes you get a sense of what's out there.

that said idk if I'd want to listen to this more than once - I mean yeah, its cool to hear them groove a bit on "Happy Family", but what is it really without that absolutely nightmarish vocal??

here's some stuff I didn't know existed: Al Stewart with Fripp and the Giles brothers. There are four of five songs from a BBC session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQu3pKpNOTA

I find it pretty interesting, like seeing a band live and they whip out a new arrangement of a familiar tune

This is why I like a lot of the recent string of live albums with the large band.

“Lady of the Dancing Water” is so quiet that it sneaks past you at the end of Lizard side two and you don’t realize how beautiful it is.

Been digging the BEAT concert album, though it's a bit more restrained than the amazing Cirkus versions.

just one Beat gig in London, or anywhere UK is all I ask....

― my opinionation (Hamildan), Monday, 10 November 2025 13:38 (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink

Beat Europe tour 2026 announced.

https://beat-tour.com/

"I talk to the Wind" after "21st century.." is a choice

These guys seem like they've got it pretty well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK8dIac7rYA

That's cool. It's funny that he brought up cellos a few times, because as I understand it Fripp's preferred New Standard Tuning is the same as a cello's tuning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzv_mj8Lh_g

Cool! Now I know what I'm immediately listening to.

'74 live release for RSD, Live at Penn State

https://www.dgmlive.com/news/penn-state-vinyl-for-record-store-day

This is on the Starless box and also was (mostly) on the Great Deceiver box. Great show, hideous AI generated cover though. Will probably pass on purchasing since I have this digitally.

Oh, it's on the Road the Red box actually.

yeah real disappointed to see them use an AI cover, you'd think Fripp would be very very very much against that

I assume he had nothing to do with it

I thought everything ran through him...?

This is also the first ever RSD release by King Crimson, right? I wonder what inspired them to participate. And yeah, that cover art. I mean it may be the thing that keeps me from buying this. I'm also pretty well stocked on live KC from this era

i think maybe the red elements mix was an RSD release but I can't remember; it wasn't exclusive at any rate

Are we sure that’s not just … bad cover art?

idk there's a very distinct look AI has with that photorealistic cartoon style, the text looks AI generated too, maybe I'm just going nuts

DGM has had terrible album art for years, to the extent that KC fans have almost grown accustomed to it. There was a lot of discussion about the elephant illustration used for the Beat tour, whether it was AI or not, and it felt like the conclusion was basically: does it even matter?

Yes, King Crimson frequently has awful covers, but this is a different kind of awful; it it doesn't look like any other shitty KC album cover. It definitely looks AI-generated, or (if I'm being generous) the kind of thing a streaming service would come up with to illustrate a playlist of KC tracks.

It just looks like half-assed Photoshop to me. AI would likely be more elaborate.

Fripp clarified on FB that this isn't AI, it's by Ben Singleton who has done a lot of stuff for KC. It is digital though. He didn't comment on it being ugly.

Awkward way to insult an artist. "You fuckers, you're using AI!" "No, Ben made that himself." "Oh....."

(like it's so ugly it looks like AI...ah, needed to rewrite that)

Fripp also says he doesn't like it

"Scott Dakota: Absolute most effective way for Robert Fripp to destroy his sales income and lifetime built respect is to use gen AI clanker slop artwork that destroys the ecosystem and thieves from human artists, and is guaranteed to produce visceral revulsion from a large number of creative people who'd previously been fans.
That is, if you were going for career and reputation suicide.

RF: Mr. Dakota assumes that the artwork is AI generated. In this he is mistaken. The artist is Ben Singleton, who has provided artwork for the last incarnation of King Crimson. My career and reputation have been under attack from various commentators since 1969, so it's likely I won't notice much of a shift.

Seth Katz: All analog or was there a digital stage?

RF: Ben, as with many contemporary artists / designers, works digitally. DGM had a hard January deadline to meet the Record Store Day annoucement, and Ben worked at speed over Christmas to meet this (for which gratitude). Ben created three other portraits - of Daniel Dust, The Wilton Carpet and Beldon Stratford.

Dino Orlando: Don't like the cover. Nothing against Mr. Fripp of course.

RF: No offence taken. I don't like it either: I don't like personal portraits.

Nick Simms: Was hyped when I first saw this on the list, but once I saw the AI slop cover… not gonna be rushing to grab this one.

Maxine McKenzie: Ditch the a.i 'cover' disneyfuckation of Uncle Bobby!

RF: Please refer to my above response to Mr. Dakota.

Yes Fanzine: RF, say it ain't so! Please tell us this isn't an AI-generated cover, as it sure looks like it!

RF: It ain't so.

Kevin Gamble: If it isn't AI, it would be good to know, as it looks a lot like AI style. And many of us have ethical concerns about AI.

RF: Now Mr. Gamble knows, and it's good. For those interested in our views of the pillars of ethical business, please consult the posted DGM principles of ethical practice. For those not sufficiently concerned about ethcial practice to do some searching, please see my next post.

Sean Sky: nice pic, before you started wearing that stupid tie.

RF: I engage with goodwill. But I am not sure which of my stupid ties Mr. Sky refers to. My tie yesterday was of a white unicorn and white rabbit, gambolling happily on an orange background. Surely, nothing stupid about white unicorns and white rabbits happily engaging in a playful social discourse?

Same story as the elephant Beat graphic. Fans were all, what is this AI slop? But someone determined that an actual artist was behind it (though jury is out as to whether or not there was still an AI assist), and also Belew is on record as being a fan of the 'phant. Granted, I would not expect anyone that dresses in day-glo and plays a Parker Fly to have particularly good taste in visuals. Fortunately, music is primarily audible.

I'm tired of everybody playing internet cop on AI art. Like I'm not talking about about ILX but there are a bunch of amateur AI detectors who have harassed legit artists who weren't using AI or asking them in a sense to prove they drew it.

One can be against generative AI abd acknowledge that turning loose the amateur masses to make public accusations is maybe a bad idea. Burden of proof should be on the accuser

Someone actually tried to suggest the video of ICE trying to enter the Ecuadorian embassy was AI slop lol

I dunno, it's kind of like the self-policing side to Bluesky. It's insufferable, but I get it. I think the argument being made is that AI only succeeds if people use it, so for some, anyone that uses it is in a sense in league with it. And the reason (not that you don't know this) people don't want it to succeed is that the population's grasp of reality is tenuous at best (hence all the suspicion), let alone recognition of the value of and work behind art, so why encourage it? And then it becomes particularly onerous when someone associated with artistic integrity (like Fripp) in turn associates or is associated themselves with something literally designed to undermine artistic integrity.

This stuff, though, it's almost a shorthand by-product. "Looks like AI" basically means "looks bad." The irony of course being that eventually AI will get good enough to look/sound/whatever good, which will lead (some) people to (per your example) accuse good or real stuff of being AI, which will be the most AI of inevitable AI outcomes. Can only imagine someone accusing Fripp or Belew or whomever of *sounding like* AI, but that is probably coming, too.

I'm pretty sure that artist that did the Beat cover did use AI on that, I'd looked at his instagram at the time and he was forthright about experimenting with AI. I don't really expect Belew to have investigated stuff like that enough, also I'm not sure he necessarily cares.

Other KC offshots like Tuner with Markus Reuter, Pat Mastelleto and Trey Gunn absolutely use AI for both album graphics as well as these little videos they made. Dunno. They were certainly weird and interesting little videos so at least there was some creativity involved in the output. I imagine Tuner etc are basically self-funded musical exercises and I don't think any of those guys are rolling in money so I kind of get it, though it's a bit disappointing.

Xpost the average person is shit at detecting it though. The obvious "7 finger" examples are one thing, but AI was trained on a variety of art styles, so some of the people who are making art in popular styles get accused because their art looks similar to the engines that ripped it off.

Someone here publicly quit working with a theater company i work with because they claim the artist used AI on a poster. This person couldn't prove it, or have any evidence other than "it looks wonky". Ok...their choice.

In any case this cover art sucks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzv_mj8Lh_g

― Maresn3st, Friday, 6 February 2026

Some excellent remarks on Jamie Muir, who died last year.

I posted this in the RIP thread (the interviewer just passed), but it's a new to me conversation between Fripp and ... Joe Strummer!

https://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_Robert_Fripp_and_Joe_Strummer_in_Musician

I'm tired of everybody playing internet cop on AI art. Like I'm not talking about about ILX but there are a bunch of amateur AI detectors who have harassed legit artists who weren't using AI or asking them in a sense to prove they drew it.

I mean "this looks shopped I can tell from some of the pixels and from having seen quite a few shops in my time" was a meme well over a decade ago, this is just the nature of the internet. on my side of the street I'm fully paranoid about AI, I have to ask throughout any process working with an artist "we're clear, no generative AI right?"