Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

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I think it is an odd time, it is getting late in the US and early in the UK.

earlnash, Friday, 19 March 2004 04:54 (twenty years ago) link

"Wheels Of Confusion" has one of my favourite opening licks of any record. That sound is just so......heavy is not the right word. It sounds ancient. Eternal. "Cornucopia" is also a Sab fave of mine.

Normally I would rather listen to Zep than Sab, but I've gotta pick Sab over Zep in this instance, despite the presence of "Four Sticks" on Zep's 4th.

Kent Burt (lingereffect), Friday, 19 March 2004 05:02 (twenty years ago) link

miccio's batting average is still close to 1.0 on these sorts of things.

in other words: sabbath 4.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 19 March 2004 05:23 (twenty years ago) link

Foreigner vs Stone Temple Pilots

dave q, Friday, 19 March 2004 13:09 (twenty years ago) link

hhmmmmmm, not even in my top five fave Sabbath albums.....but does it still kick Zeps ass? And it's probably the worst SOUNDING Sabbath album - paper thin kick drums & rubber band bass......

I'll call it even, with a slight edge to Zep due to the above mentioned sound problems.

I'm sick of hearing that the remastered Sabbath catalog will be "out next year"!! C'mon already.

For those who have heard the Castle reissues: How much of an improvement is it? And, how much - in your opinion - room is there to go further/better?

pheNAM (pheNAM), Friday, 19 March 2004 14:33 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.zenial.nl/pic/peacevil.jpg

Siegbran (eofor), Friday, 19 March 2004 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

"For those who have heard the Castle reissues: How much of an improvement is it?"

At least going by the Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, the Castle reissues are a big improvement.

The Rhino 2cd set Symptom of the Universe has much improved sound, but I don't know if thee source are the Castle remasters or a new mastering job.

earlnash, Friday, 19 March 2004 15:40 (twenty years ago) link

Let's see -- a hack semi-cover band of studio musicians with a dog for a singer vs. Sabbath.

Sabbath wins again!

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Friday, 19 March 2004 16:13 (twenty years ago) link

Led Zeppelin sucked until Physical Graffiti, and Sabbath's album (besides having "Supernaut" and "Snowblind," two of the greatest songs ever) is a concept album about dirtbags from the asshole of England going to L.A. and getting coked up and going insane. It's like the Apocalypse Now of metal, or something. So 100 percent Sabbath on this one.

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Friday, 19 March 2004 16:20 (twenty years ago) link

As much as I love Vol. 4's sludgy wierd coke ambience....I don't really think this one is even close...Zep at the peak of their powers...ZOSO all way! (shit When the Levee Breaks and Four Sticks alone could take this one over Vol. 4)

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 March 2004 16:29 (twenty years ago) link

"At least going by the Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, the Castle reissues are a big improvement."

Though, the sound on those two albums never bothered me. Albums that need major work: Masters of Reality, V.4, Sabotage, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - hell, even Never Say Die (too many hi-mid & high frequencies).

I would love to hear the Symptom set, but I've been holding my money to buy those remasters. Which will be out next year, ya know? ;}

pheNAM (pheNAM), Friday, 19 March 2004 16:48 (twenty years ago) link

"It's like the Apocalypse Now of metal, or something"

Is there a story to this? I know they got coked up and all, but what happened in L.A. that could be described as going insane?

pheNAM (pheNAM), Friday, 19 March 2004 16:52 (twenty years ago) link

The Warners masters for the two Dio Sabbath albums hasn't been updated since the mid 80s, they sounded very shabby and quiet.

I lucked out on the Symptom set, I found a promo cheap the week it came out. Sharon Osbourne's finger prints are all over some of the crap text in the booklet. The music sounds great.

earlnash, Friday, 19 March 2004 16:54 (twenty years ago) link

>I've been holding my money to buy those remasters.

The Castle remasters are great, and they're frequently available at good prices on eBay, in a medium-fancy box (no booklet, but mini-LP packaging for the discs themselves).

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Friday, 19 March 2004 17:08 (twenty years ago) link

Breakbeats: Supernaut vs. When the Levee Breaks

As much as I love Supernaut, which is A LOT, WtLB has basically the most crushing live drums ever.

Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 19 March 2004 17:11 (twenty years ago) link

black sabbath.

jack cole (jackcole), Friday, 19 March 2004 17:15 (twenty years ago) link

Well, I'm listening to the Replacements drunkenly cover "Misty Mountain Hop," it might count for something.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 19 March 2004 17:29 (twenty years ago) link

Favorite Sabbath funky beats:

National Acrobat (main riff)
Junior's Eyes (bass and drums)
Symptom of the Universe (jazzy acoustic breakdown)

pheNAM (pheNAM), Friday, 19 March 2004 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

VOLUME 4. - Subtract track of studio-effects (filler), one piano-&-Mellotron ballad (boring) and one acoustic instrumental (awful), and most of what is left makes this possibly Sabbath's second- or third-finest LP, beginning with the massive (and massively overlooked) opener "Wheels of Confusion".

ZOSO - No matter how sick I am of "Rock And Roll" (the ONLY song I'm tired of, incidentally), this LP is beyond criticism. Led Zeppelin were the kings of album rock, and that's their true legacy: No band - including groups that were superior in every other way - made better LPs than these guys. And they may have equalled but never surpassed this monolith. Pretentious but not pompous, loud even when it's quiet, played to death yet still inscrutable, this LP will eat through your brain like an earwig if you let it.

I choose ZOSO (or "Led Zeppelin IV" or "Atlantic SD 7208" or whatever you wanna call it.)

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:03 (twenty years ago) link

I'm mystified that anyone would choose Sabbath at the beginning of their decline over Zeppelin at the height of their powers. I mean COME ON - Volume 4 has a shittier, tinnier, paper-thin sound compared to their previous three albums, the band was clearly falling into a predictable rut in terms of songwriting, nothing particularly new or exciting on the record. And like I said, there's a steep decline in the production quality. Zeppelin, on the other hand, the only thing wrong with that record is that it's been overexposed and played to death...

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 19 March 2004 20:13 (twenty years ago) link

I haven't heard Vol 4 but I'll just say that I'm mystified that anyone could dis Robert Plant in favour of Ozzy Osbourne as a vocalist.

I have Paranoid and Sabotage. They're both good and have great moments (mostly in the guitars and beats) but there's still a strong kitsch element that isn't there with Zeppelin for me. Like I said, I haven't heard Vol 4 though.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:22 (twenty years ago) link

I've noticed: People who prefer Led Zep over Sabbath also tend to think of the Police as a punk band.

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

I don't.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

oh please. I hate the Police, there wasn't anything "punk" about them in any way shape or form. And I don't strictly prefer Led Zep over Sabbath, I prefer one of Led Zep's *best* records over one of Sabbath's okay records.

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 19 March 2004 20:25 (twenty years ago) link

the only thing wrong with that record is that it's been overexposed and played to death...

Shakey Mo OTM...I always have to remind myself, "Dude you don't really like Presence better than IV...it's just the overexposure talking"

I've noticed: People who prefer Led Zep over Sabbath also tend to think of the Police as a punk band

Wha? I don't either.

(also these are both fantastic albums and bands...but I think Shakey Mo was correct in saying that this is peak Zep, and off-peak Sabbath - although I do still like Vol.4 alot...and actually Sabotage too which is a bit spotty as well, but somehow overcomes its weaknesses for me)

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:26 (twenty years ago) link

Wait a minute. Sundar just posted that he doesn't find Zeppelin kitschy. I need to smack my head against my desktop to see if I can make that make sense.

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:27 (twenty years ago) link

(Although I admittedly don't actually give much of a shit about punk rock at this point, which might be closer to whatever point Ian trying to make if he had one. And I realized in a pub a little while ago that the Police (along with U2) are probably the most listenable 80s new wave/modern rock guitar singles band, which says something about 80s new wave/modern rock. Seriously, after the 17 623 498th Cure song I was damn grateful for "Message In a Bottle".)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:33 (twenty years ago) link

Zeppelin, of course

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 19 March 2004 20:40 (twenty years ago) link

Close call but... Zeppelin WINS!

JP Almeida (JP Almeida), Friday, 19 March 2004 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

>the Police (along with U2) are probably the most listenable 80s new wave/modern rock guitar singles band

You think so? I'd rather listen to the Cars for a week than the Police for an hour.

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Friday, 19 March 2004 21:04 (twenty years ago) link

And I'd rather set my head on fire than listen to U2, but that goes without saying.

Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Friday, 19 March 2004 21:05 (twenty years ago) link

I really really like lz4, and it's not over exposed for me b/c in my post-punk rigour (which somehow never stopped me liking prog rock haha) I kind of dismissed it b/c of "stairway to heaven" which is a bit naff still, really. I listen to the rest of thee album quite often. OTOH, "wheels of confusion" does pwn anything on it. I put them about even w/r/t how much I like them.

I picked up the castle remasters a little while ago, b/c they were in hmv's sale and they sound fine to me.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 19 March 2004 21:22 (twenty years ago) link

phil freeman is totally OTM re: cars/police and u2.

i should probably give led zeppelin another chance: i thought they were awesome (especially LZIV) when i was 15, but i haven't really been able to listen to them much since.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 19 March 2004 23:18 (twenty years ago) link

although mr freeman is OTM and w/ all due respects to mr subramanian, i cannot let this pass w/t comment:

And I realized in a pub a little while ago that the Police (along with U2) are probably the most listenable 80s new wave/modern rock guitar singles band, which says something about 80s new wave/modern rock.

um, i think that it says more about you and yer tastes than it does about 80s new wave/modern rock, sundar.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 19 March 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

(That was kind of an implied point, yeah. FWIW there was a time when the Smiths and old REM were among my favourite bands ever. Now that I never listen to that stuff at home, they really don't sound as good in a club or pub or on the radio as The Police. I totally don't get what's supposed to be so good about The Cars. They're OK but they sound so totally off-the-cuff. The Police sound like they put effort into writing and playing their songs. I have some pleasant memories of "Best Friend's Girl" I guess though. U2 are pretty cool if you tune out the singing and pretend every song is an ambient guitar instrumental.)

I'll check out Vol 4 soon. No, Led Zeppelin isn't kitsch for me.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 20 March 2004 00:19 (twenty years ago) link

"masters of confusion" & "paranoid" beat most zeppelin, but Vol. 4 is no IV.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Saturday, 20 March 2004 00:23 (twenty years ago) link

The correct answer is Never Say Die, thanks for playing everybody

J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 20 March 2004 00:25 (twenty years ago) link

Although I admittedly don't actually give much of a shit about punk rock at this point, which might be closer to whatever point Ian trying to make if he had one.

I sure wasn't talking about you specifically, but yeah, you found the point.

Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Saturday, 20 March 2004 01:16 (twenty years ago) link

I put on LZ4 a couple days ago because of this thread. I was into it for the first two songs. "Battle of Evermore" and "Stairway to Heaven" actually felt like empty pomp, even a little over-sweet in StH's case, not connecting as much as they did either a) when I was 13 or b) when I was stoned all the time. I had no motivation to listen to the second side because I remembered that it had sounded underwhelming the previous time I'd listened to it. Physical Graffiti seems to hold up much better at the moment (but not really "Kashmir", weirdly). I'm pretty sure, however, that the answer is not that I need to listen to more Black Sabbath (or more punk rock).

sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 05:52 (twenty years ago) link

No, I think you should listen to more Black Sabbath but I think that for everyone. (I bought and read the paperback update of Ian's book over the weekend and find myself thinking better of Black Sabbath than ever before.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 06:17 (twenty years ago) link

four years pass...

http://bagginsshoes.com/images/converse/107188-660.jpg

craig sager (eman), Wednesday, 26 November 2008 00:56 (fifteen years ago) link

Great shoes.

I wasn't around for the original thread, but Vol. 4 absolutely destroys the weak, overplayed IV.

Bill Magill, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 14:54 (fifteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...

(this is a bit blecch, but:)

Black Sabbath Vol. 4 : Billy Costigan, Jr. :: Zoso : Colin Sullivan

Roy Orbison is really just the male Patsy Cline (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 24 December 2008 00:51 (fifteen years ago) link

"Stairway To Heaven" Vs. "Changes".

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:05 (fifteen years ago) link

There was a time when I'd say Zoso without a doubt, but I'm so burned out on Zeppelin that right now I'd rather hear Vol. 4.

redmond, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:08 (fifteen years ago) link

Zep.

xhuxk, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Zep.

Capitaine Jay Vee, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 07:30 (fifteen years ago) link

Wrong.

Wrong.

Bill Magill, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link

eight years pass...

Listening to Sabbath's Vol 4 again tonight - I've often said that this is my least favourite of Sabbath's LP's from Black Sabbath up to Sabotage but tonight it seems to be hitting the spot. I guess the reason I've always considered this one to be my least favourite is because of its really trebly sound - I tend to put that down to the bands choice of recreational substances at the time. The material itself is great, but does it ever need more low end.

Also, I'm convinced that 'FX' sounded utterly mindblowing to them when it was laid down on tape at the time. Whenever I hear it, I always feel I will never hear it as they must have heard it.

...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Saturday, 8 April 2017 23:47 (seven years ago) link

SABBATH

dance cum rituals (Moka), Sunday, 9 April 2017 03:15 (seven years ago) link

But LZIV is also pretty good tho I prefer III or HoH instead.

dance cum rituals (Moka), Sunday, 9 April 2017 03:16 (seven years ago) link

LZIV is harder to assess if by the time you were born and old enough to listen to and enjoy music, the entire album was ubiquitous on 'classic rock' radio. by the time I actually got LZIV as a gift, I'd heard like 75% of the album already.

that said, the songs on it are all fuckin classic, think it gets the nod over Sab's admittedly dope Vol IV.

Neanderthal, Sunday, 9 April 2017 05:47 (seven years ago) link

It's clearly a different story in America, but prior to digital radio I remember hearing Led Zeppelin get played on the radio once, maybe twice and it was always 'Stairway to Heaven' ... even on VH-1, which used to show a lot of music from the '60s and '70s, I saw videos of 'Dazed and Confused' and 'Over the Hills and Far Away' maybe once each.

...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Sunday, 9 April 2017 18:33 (seven years ago) link

sabbath

the late great, Sunday, 9 April 2017 18:39 (seven years ago) link

I saw dis thread on SNA was like "I bet I started this shit" and sho nuff

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 20:59 (seven years ago) link

Of the two, I (obviously) prefer Led Zeppelin, but just imagine Black Sabbath's Vol 4 with Led Zeppelin IV's production values...

...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Sunday, 9 April 2017 21:44 (seven years ago) link

Supernaut is the best thing BS ever did and the production is perfect

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 21:47 (seven years ago) link

I think it's a shame that they weren't allowed to use their intended title. Snowblind would have been the perfect title for the record.

...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:35 (seven years ago) link

Were they consciously quoting LZ here?

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:39 (seven years ago) link

I've always wondered. I mean Rat Salad is a poor man's Moby Dick so it wouldn't be the first time

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:40 (seven years ago) link

I've never really thought about it that way, I just assumed they called it Vol 4 because they weren't allowed to call it Snowblind and didn't have any other last minute idea of what to call it, but now that you've mentioned it, there may have been a little bit of "let's do what Zep do and just number it!"

...so music and chicken have become intertwined (Turrican), Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:45 (seven years ago) link

I mean the album title of course

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:46 (seven years ago) link

snowblind is probably my favorite sabbath track these days

the late great, Sunday, 9 April 2017 22:54 (seven years ago) link

"The great COKE-cola etc of LA"

calstars, Sunday, 9 April 2017 23:06 (seven years ago) link

SUPERNAUT

a but (brimstead), Monday, 10 April 2017 00:17 (seven years ago) link

yessum

calstars, Monday, 10 April 2017 00:26 (seven years ago) link

two years pass...

Was it illusion?

calstars, Sunday, 16 February 2020 01:11 (four years ago) link

Don’t have a horse in this race, like both bands but for all the virtuosity on display Zep still sounds like Blue Men Singing the Whites, whereas there is some kind of sui generis Horror meets Machine Age thing about Sabbath that reminds me of what I imagine the gizmo that took Tony’s fingertips sounded like, so them.

He’s the Listener DJ, I’m the Listener Rapper (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:58 (four years ago) link

it's sabbath and it's not even close

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link

With Geezer’s bass being the elastic drive belt.

He’s the Listener DJ, I’m the Listener Rapper (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 18 February 2020 18:29 (four years ago) link

seven months pass...

Sabbath but both bands are kinda laughable when they get off the riffs.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 9 October 2020 15:33 (four years ago) link


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