Live Zappa

fave live is Piquantique - Stockholm '73 included in Beat the Boots - killer heavy jamz w/ Jean-Luc Ponty

I've been listening to a lot of Zappa and watching Baby Snakes this week and I have to say that I'm often frustrated by Zappa's lead guitar playing. He plays so many long solos at climactic moments. I get all geared up for them and then as often as not they disappoint, starting out with promise, then noodling around without really going anywhere. He was not terrible by any means but he was clearly not a virtuoso like the guys he hired: his technical weaknesses are evident when watching him on video. I don't know why he didn't just let his hired guns handle lead guitar as well. Everything else in the Dangerous Minds clip above is fantastic but that first long distorted solo seems like a dry gulch. In fact, I was paying more attention to the rhythm section while he was playing. (I don't mind the clean leads and the more heavily processed lines later on though.) Great composer and bandleader though. I don't know if there's something about his playing that I'm missing.

"played so many"

sund4r - agree there is some good stuff at ponts (sorry for my prev comment) - he got some good musicians to play together but it ends up somewhat disjointed.

was there an album of the Does Humour Belong In Music show? or whatever tour that was taken from? i saw that on VHS as a teen and loved it but never investigated further.

Agreed that his live solos don't reflect his compositional genius (i.e. they don't go anywhere for the most part), but I think that's what make them great in a way. It's like a whole different side of him is let loose: searching, experimenting, etc.

I think his solos in a studio setting were much more taut and to the point, stuff like "Zombie Woof"

Yeah, for a guy who released a 3 LP set of guitar solos, that's not an aspect of Zappa that thrills me a lot, particularly on his earlier stuff. Three I like a lot:

Don't You Ever Wash That Thing? The whole band brought their A game for this, and Frank's solo is hot and concise.

Watermelon In Easter Hay Pretty much a consensus fan fave, I think.

Yo Mama I dunno, maybe not a lot different than many of his, but I love this one.

It's like a whole different side of him is let loose: searching, experimenting, etc.

I think this is key. He called his live soloing "spontaneous composition." What's really interesting is what he could do with those solos after he got back to the studio -- one of the most fascinating things for me in FZ lore is comparing the full length "Black Napkins" from the Eyes of Osaka boot (10:40) to the 4:15 version he put on Zoot Allures. Brock's terrible saxophone solo is gone completely. FZ himself played a lot of crap in that 10:40, but he edited and reordered what was left into a tight shiny diamond.

Going back to the live <i>Wazoo</i>, I was inevitably disappointed with that release as I've been a massive fan of those two big-band studio LPs for a long time (I think 'Blessed Relief' might be my all time fav track of his). I should probably go back to it now but I don't remember being blown away or whatever compared to the studio recs.

I'm listening to one of the "Petit Wazoo" shows on youtube this morning, digging it a lot.

Has anyone seen The Grandmothers Of Invention? It's Brock and Fowler, and on this tour, Preston, with some non-Zappa related guys. They're currently touring "Roxy and Elsewhere and More" and are coming through town. I'm very tempted.

strongly thinking of going to Dallas to see these guys

I have, twice. (Once Roy Estrada was also along.) At Winnipeg Folk Fest ("folk music" ha!!) they did the "Echidna's Arf/Don't You Ever Wash That Thing" medley. I had a great, great time.

Thanks for the first hand report Dan!

Moodles - if you're coming to the show at the Kessler let me know. My wife's not a fan so I'll be on my own.

I just found out they were here in Minneapolis three weeks ago. Totally missed my radar!

ez:

sure thing, going to try to figure out with my wife whether we can get up there. Tricky part is managing my work schedule and making sure my son has somewhere to go for the night.

gotcha. I may try to cajole my wife into going but I think I'll get a raised eyebrow for my effort.

Might shoot for Birmingham, August 12

Come to Dallas! It's only a nine hour drive.

I'd do it for a September show, but my work schedule will be too hairy in mid-August to be away that many days.

Some day I'll catch a Zappa family concert with you. If only to be regaled with all your Zappa stories.

Turns out I'm not going to be able to catch the Grandmothers show next week. Pretty bummed.

Here's 30 minutes from the 1973 Roxy performances. Catch it before ZFT lawyers find out about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnDqHppWS_Q

^^^ still on youtube as of today. Kinda surprising, or maybe the estate just thinks it's good advertising for when the DVD finally surfaces.

Here's one I had never heard before today - I was off the FZ bus by the time of Joe's Garage II and III - but this is "Watermelon in Easter Hay'-level beautiful, if only it weren't for Frank's stupid lyrics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-ypZrkjgBQ

Just found out the 1981 show at the Palladium is on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQDTXF63vug

I'm stuck in a Zappahole. Went straight from the '81 show into this 1973 Stockholm one. Video quality isn't great, but the show itself is a corker. I've heard it many times but watching it, even in low quality, is great. Franks outfit is something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BynKe8BjIxk

Yeah, that Stockholm show is a fun one. Just discovered that recently myself.

It's so cool to watch after having had years of listening to the audio from it. And it seems so incredibly alive when compared to the '81 show which is technically better -- almost note perfect -- but a bit soulless.

Visuals add so much, esp. the Roxy footage, which is amazeballs. I'll try to watch that '81 show at some point, but while those guys are technically brilliant, that band and that setlist are really not up my alley.

The only time I ever saw him was 1974, and I wish more I had more than the vague, fuzzy memories I'm left with. Damn teenage drinking. Kinda wish I would have seen him later too, although I was so far off the Zappatrain in the 80s.

I think all his 80s bands suffered from that soullessness. He had a harder and harder time reconciling conflicting desires -- he wanted that note-perfect execution, but he would also tell the players to "put some eyebrows on it" or "put some garlic in it." He never achieved better than the 73-74 bands, imo.
xxpost

Dan, I would say the '81 show is mainly worth watching for the solos. Steve and Frank really pushed each other into some crazy spaces. But yeah, the setlist is a bit of a shame. Pretty much every show post '78 or so is, as William put it, about conflicting desires. The perfectionist drove the life from his own work.

One of these days, William, we will find a way to meet halfway between our respective abodes and just chat over coffee or beer or something. Well worth the hours of driving to get you to wax eloquent about Zappa. Dan, your welcome to join too, wherever you may be coming from.

watched a bit of that 73 clip (75 is about as far as I go w/ frank) -- great stuff! being in zappa's band must've been hard.

Wow, just when I say I can't remember my only Zappa show, I discover there's a soundboard recording:

http://www.discogs.com/Frank-Zappa-Saint-Mothers-In-Saint-Paul/release/2203684

and I'm listening to part of it as I type. Lots of spoken word tomfoolery so far, which is basically one of my only memories of the show.

That's amazing!

I found a better looking version of the Stockholm show I embedded above:

http://youtu.be/yqfx2cTeCFk

One of these days, William, we will find a way to meet halfway between our respective abodes and just chat over coffee or beer or something. Well worth the hours of driving to get you to wax eloquent about Zappa. Dan, your welcome to join too, wherever you may be coming from.

Sounds like fun! Maybe in NYC for an Ed Palermo show, and we can heckle him for not getting it just right.

Sure! NYC sounds better than the probable middle points of Little Rock or Shreveport.

I'm in St. Paul, MN. Triangulate that...

I believe I've convinced myself to see Zappa Plays Zappa next time they come through.

So, when are we all going to Kansas City?

http://www.jambands.com/news/2013/04/30/zappa-plays-zappa-to-celebrate-roxy-elsewhere-with-tour/

I might roadtrip to one of these dates.

I can't believe they're skipping the whole South. They were just here but not playing Roxy material. Grr.

Easily my most played Zappa album. Roadtrip to Eau Claire, WI might be in the offing.

It's tempting to go back to Eau Claire, why because the Norske Nook and 837 kinds of pie.

^^^ truthbomb

I didn't know that A Token Of His Extreme finally got an official dvd release. Primo '74 Zappa that I've watched in crappy form many times so I need to pick this up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN1h2w7gqvY#

oh hai, anybody for the complete Mount St. Mary's concert from 1963?

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/opus_5_young_frank_zappas_early_avant_garde

http://youtu.be/rwoTPS8gbJM

getting obsessed with Roxy and Elsewhere, it's such a perfect combo of what make Zappa such an enormous turn-off and why some of us still keep coming back - the band is just locked into this singular groove, Z's playing finds all these different pockets of goodness and just sounds so great, and then...he fuckin'...keeps right on blowing the minds of the sheeple on the mic with the assistance of his entire ensemble. like, they all think the same utterly tiresome schtick isn't just a fine way to bide time between killer playing, but the best way. and at the same time, sometimes, I feel like, well, who gives a shit - "Village of the Sun" is such a total gem, who cares if the people making it are the worst kinda people to be around - but then they keep right on insisting that you're not just gonna listen to their music, you have to take their personalities, warts and all, mainly warts, in the bargain.

but Jesus Christ "Village of the Sun" is killing me.

I beg you to get Roxy the Movie if you haven't already.

That "Village/Echidna's/Don't You Ever..." segment is one of my most played sides of vinyl ever; I've listened to that thing hundreds of times.

And I got to see The Grandmothers do a spot-on recreation at a festival once.

lol that also provides context for one of the jokes in "room service"

That Helsinki concert is a long time favorite of mine. Kind of an amazingly crisp recording given the time and circumstances. The guitar solo from the One Size Fits All version of "Inca Roads" was taken from this concert. I'd say the concert overall is pretty much the pinnacle of his guitar playing.

i'm loving the läther material but i gotta say i may think sleep dirt on its own is the best frank zappa record, or at least it would be really hard to choose between it and one size fits all, but then again there are no lyrics on sleep dirt

Always surprised the live albums that came out featuring the '88 touring band (Make a Jazz Noise Here, Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life, Broadway the Hard Way, YCDTOSA 4/6) don't have more fans. I guess the lineup was one of the least flashy, had more of a big-band vibe than most other Zappa bands, less rock-oriented, but by far the tightest, and the recordings are the clearest of his career imo.

I nominated Make a Jazz Noise Here as essential in the second post in this thread...

... and I was shocked not to see it come up again when it's clearly his best live album!

I loved those '88 albums at the time, but don't listen to them much these days.

zappa in new york is great aside from the fact that it's lyrically signaling zappa's sex and toilet humor era, which... i'm gonna get at least as far as joe's garage or your are what you is, but i'm already very tired of the gay panic in "punky's whips" and the generally reprehensible vibe of "the illinois enema bandit" (the thing is that compositionally these songs both rule). glad they restored the original mix on the 2019 box set, because the digital reverb zappa added to it in the '80s sounds gross

i also listened to läther, which is fucking incredible

He was so good at fanfares (eg Regyptian Strut, theme from Run Home Slow, etc).

"greggery peccary" is sort of what i wish zappa were like lyrically all the time, just these go-nowhere contemptuous cartoon satires of the entertainment industry + making fun of hippies

i despise joe's garage, hateful piece of shit

otm

sounds right

ums btw if you've never heard sleep dirt you would probably enjoy it, the best tracks from the läther project arranged as a suite intended as a follow-up to hot rats. läther is, again, lyrics of the new york stuff and the sheik yerbouti tracks aside, great, but sleep dirt is in my experience the only of the compromised albums läther was divided into that really works on its own (studio tan is too much of the more mannered composed fusion stuff at once and orchestral favorites is too much of the modern classical cartoon stuff at once)

not heard of that, will check it out!


Zappa is very frustrating. tbh I kind of wish he wasn't so talented so I could just write him off, but his best stuff is really striking and unique

as a liberal snowflake i did not enjoy almost anything that happened on sheik yerbouti

god that "dupree's paradise" video upthread is so fuckin rad. jean-luc ponty shreds

yeah sleep dirt is great. you might want to avoid getting the version with vocals though.

However, with the CD release in 1991, Zappa added new overdubs to the recordings. Zappa asked singer Thana Harris to add vocals to three songs. Zappa had originally envisioned "Flambay", "Spider of Destiny", and "Time is Money" as part of his abandoned 1972 musical, Hunchentoot, and thus, these songs were originally intended to be sung.

yeah i'm not going anywhere near that. i'm v thankful for (most) of the 2012 reissues of the zappa catalog, they really removed the main obstacle to exploring zappa: how much he loved to ruin his own music

(i say most bc i had to look up specific box sets to find the original mixes of freak out!, uncle meat, cruising with ruben and the jets, and zappa in new york, so, like, it's still not easy)

lmao that when joe gets out of prison the world has been converted into a WELFARE STATE oh no!!!!!!

For some reason Bongo Fury has totally passed me by, will give that one a listen

ok my main problem with shut up 'n play yer guitar is there's too much guitar

Yeah, even though I’m a fan of his guitar playing by and large, I don’t find him interesting enough to sustain that kind of listening. I did just put on YCDTOSA 2 tonight, and although I still think some songs are played too fast, overall the first disc is really impressive.

I was still in my first flush of FZ adoration when Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar came out (I bought it in its original mail-order incarnation as 3 individual LPs) but I can imagine it being wearing. The followup set of solos, Guitar, is the one that tries my patience.

I just got tix to see Dweezil play highlights from Roxy and Elsewhere and Apostrophe, it’s the 50th anniversary of both. I’ve never seen him, and those are two of my favorite Zappa albums. I’m excited.

Any Zappa alum in the current Dweezil band?

The advertising didn’t say.

Listening to first disc of ‘Shut Up and Play yer Guitar’ last week, it occurred to me if Autechre was a prog rawk band it would probably sound something like this. There is not a straight beat on that whole record.

I was also watching one of those videos on the tube going over Zappa’s chord progressions and the time signature madness in some of those tunes, is pretty wild.