Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I listened to that Spirit song, and it's just kind of a generic descending thing in the middle of the song. Uncanny, though, albeit only for those 5 seconds.

I don't think a chromatic descent is adequate to copyright.

Well, the Stones had to give K.D. Lang and Ben Mink cowriting credit on "Anybody Seen My Baby?" because the chorus had the same descending line as "Constant Craving."

The chromatic descending line is in my funny valentine too.

xpost I've heard Keys to the Highway. It's not that exciting. It's just Page and Plant, from the same night of recording that produced Hats Off to Harper, not a full band recording. The best thing from the unreleased tracks I've heard so far (was at a playback a couple of months ago) was the early version of Since I've Been Loving You, which was much rawer than the album version.

Well, the Stones had to give K.D. Lang and Ben Mink cowriting credit on "Anybody Seen My Baby?" because the chorus had the same descending line as "Constant Craving."

Well, not quite. The story goes, as far as I remember, is that maybe Jagger's daughter noticed the similarity when she heard the song, and the band gave Lang credit pre-emptively. REM did the same thing on that minor song from "Up" that alludes to Leonard Cohen. Whether Lang, or Cohen, would have won a hypothetical suit is another matter. It's pretty hard to win those suits.

Yeah, I do remember it being pre-emptive, and there not being any legal challenges, but I guess my point is that there have been situations like "Taurus"/"Stairway" that were settled where far less of a similarity existed.

Trying one of these cases on the grounds of pure musical theft (as opposed to lyrical theft) is harder. But imagine how much money, say, Van Morrison could possibly earn going after people who ripped the "Gloria" chords!

It's sad reading about where Randy California was before he died--and he was still a working musician at that point, with a major reissue campaign happening!

I was initially suspicious of the Hoskyns book by the pull quote, not just that it was by Klosterman (ugh), but that it reads "endlessly interesting." "Endlessly," really? And "interesting?" Fascinating, maybe, or entertaining, but interesting? And yet, I'm a ways through and yes, it is all oddly interesting. There's very little about the music itself, which almost takes place in the background. But there's a lot of business stuff which reveals just how huge and powerful the band was. Power all around, really. As musicians, in terms of popularity, in terms of sheer muscle, literal and figurative. That the band bullies its way to a 90/10 split with promoters is one thing, but they have a point, that with no need to push singles or albums or ticket sales, they don't need promoters to fill stadiums. Etc. There's also the matter of the band being amazing young even c. 1972 or so, when a case is made that Zep is the biggest band in the world, except no one knows it, because they don't really do interviews or marketing or publicity. But the band is still in circle-the-wagon modes, defensive and vindictive, whenever anyone crosses them or anyone in their secret society. Personality wise, too, they're all pretty different. Plant is a hippie hedonist. JPJ a pragmatist. Page the mastermind. Bonzo a total animal. They all but invented a certain rock and roll lifestyle (though as JPJ notes everyone was like that then), yet emerged remained peerless, surely because they were so cut off from everyone else. So yes, very interesting.

the last couple years of the band go down in bad vibes like the end of goodfellas

I haven't made it that far yet - what happens to Bonzo, does he go back to school? - but the stage is so totally set for the ugliest of ugly ends.

Page has to live the rest of his life like a schnook.

Devil's bargain.

Page has to live the rest of his life like a schnook.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, May 28, 2014 9:05 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha he basically has!

i'm seeing the 'oral history' and 'trampled underfoot', both by hoskins. they sound pretty similar so i'm guessing one of them is a repackage/rerelease of the other? which one should i get?

Yeah, we established it was the same upthread some.

I'm about 3/4 of the way through. Definitely fascinating. And a guilty LOL at this - "what happens to Bonzo, does he go back to school?"

what happened to john paul jones was fucked

http://www.chud.com/articles/content_images/0NICK2/casino_1818.jpg

i'm seeing the 'oral history' and 'trampled underfoot', both by hoskins. they sound pretty similar so i'm guessing one of them is a repackage/rerelease of the other? which one should i get?

― global tetrahedron, Wednesday, May 28, 2014 10:05 AM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

believe the 2nd pressing was done as oral history not trampled underfoot....i believe they are the same? i read oral history from the mpls public library

interviewing Page and Jones:
http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2014/05/06/behind-the-curtain-interviewing-led-zeppelin-in-1977/

It's definitely pretty amazing to learn that the band was apparently accorded about as much contemporary respect as Nickelback or Bon Jovi. For some reason I thought it was just RS that gave them the cold shoulder, Considering the band's strategy of buying off select journalists with access - Nick Kent, Cameron Crowe - to generate some good press, it really says a lot about the capricious nature of rock journalism. Shut the door and they've got nothing good to say. Let the press in and things get a tad sunnier. Still it's really hard to believe that anyone could hear this stuff and dismiss it as mere heavy metal (though that says as much about rock journo anti-metal prejudice). The band itself even made a concerted effort to shake things up with the third and fourth albums to rid itself of that rep. That no one really seemed to recognize this band had as much (often) in common with Fairport Convention as any other traditional (that is to say, not "traditional") rock band is surprising.

Well, there was less of a rock (and even less of a metal) 'tradition' to refer to in 1970, surely.

Still it's really hard to believe that anyone could hear this stuff and dismiss it as mere heavy metal (though that says as much about rock journo anti-metal prejudice).

I've had trouble understanding that view myself, as I've only known Zep to be part of the canon. Lester Bangs alluded to it when he wondered how the Yardbirds could turn into the relatively slothful Zep. But also, among critics at the time there was some buzz about Page's new group, and LZI being essentially a rehash of Jeff Beck's Truth was a disappointment.

In the book one of the journos they courted, one of the women, initially dismissed going on tour with them in the early '70s because she thought they were just some metal band (her words). Also, it does specify that Creem, actually, was one of the few pubs to pay attention, because Zep had a total Midwestern/working class vibe in America, so Creem praised them as underdogs/fellow travelers, in essence. In the UK, it seems the band had little critic traction. Don't know if that ever changed while the band was around.

yes, total class thing, now that I think of it--Zeppelin were definitely the lumpenprole house band in America

Yeah, I can see Creem digging them, and anyway, early Zep isn't exactly miles away from the MC5 (whom Creem revered, iirc).

MC5 was political in a way that LZ never was, though, probably didn't help the latter with the critics

Zeppelin were definitely the lumpenprole house band in America

I dunno, was this really that much more true of Led Zeppelin than of Pink Floyd or the Who?

xpost

I think there's pretty much always stuff at stake at the time for critics, when it comes to certain bands, that dissipates later. I can see how Led Zeppelin might have represented adolescent idiocy in the context of rock music and rock critics still vying to be taken seriously.

I mean they were grandiose, they were lyrically pretentious yet not great writers, they were pretty obnoxiously showy, their shows were sprawling affairs, etc. Plus if you thought yourself a champion of real authentic blues and folk music and all that they probably came off a little like blues hammer.

RS review of LZI mostly talks about how much it tries (and fails, in John Mendelsohn's view) to beat Jeff Beck at his own game. Nothing was said about the audience.

In their willingness to waste their considerable talent on unworthy material the Zeppelin has produced an album which is sadly reminiscent of Truth. Like the Beck group they are also perfectly willing to make themselves a two- (or, more accurately, one-a-half) man show. It would seem that, if they're to help fill the void created by the demise of Cream, they will have to find a producer (and editor) and some material worthy of their collective attention.

I think I actually do rate Truth a little higher than the first Zep.

Zeppelin just didn't care about the things late 60s/early 70s critics cared about - whether it was politics, authenticity, or hit singles. it's no surprise they were completely passed over, they existed in a hermetically sealed mythology of their own making.

Zeppelin were definitely the lumpenprole house band in America

This was probably Grand Funk Railroad, actually. Even at the beginning, Led Zeppelin were slightly artier than just knuckle-walking stadium rock.

critics might've liked em more back then if they were more of a straight "heavy" band. it was probably their pretensions to anything else beyond that that put them off.

Critics hated AC/DC even more. Rock critics hated them some rock music!

I ignore the destruction and jump into his early history as a studio player; his influences; and how he achieved certain sounds on the Zeppelin albums. I know at that moment I’m doing my job—capturing on tape the thoughts and insights of the world’s most influential guitarist—and I feel like a king. From the second I had been granted access to the guitarist, I recognized the importance of this interview.

And at one point during the conversation, even Jimmy even interrupted himself mid-thought to reveal, “I know the importance of what we’re doing. It needs to be talked about.” He understood.

GMAFB

haha

ultimately though it's page the producer (and JPJ the arranger) that makes zeppelin stand so high for me....the records are just packed with great SOUNDS, guitar sounds, mellotron sounds, acoustic sounds, drum sounds, string sounds....

I like the layered guitar parts on "Ten Years Gone" a lot.

ten years gone is so understated. i think it might be my favourite zep song.

methinks its useful to remember that whatever critical orthodoxy persisted at a particular time (maybe even now, in the poptimist era that ILM-niks pat 'emselves on the back about) viscerally dislikes shit that pimply midwestern kids rep for.

I've been told by guys who were about 5 years younger than Christgau/Marsh/Paul Nelson and entered the critic field in the mid/late 70s that the singer songwriter mill-yer was the accepted thing to rally around. and yeah, you had to respect chicago/delta blues and be offended by LZ flattening that shit out for the lumpenproles, as well as investing an imperial arrogance (Page didn't like giving credit, partly cuz, as I imagine Hoskyn mentions, he was often called "Led wallet." and a lot of critics apparently felt a malaise from the absence of the beatles…like "when are they going to reunite, show these stupid kids what's up with REAL music (and implicitly make me feel like I did when I was a kid"). which of course has repeated many many times over…

a lot of critics apparently felt a malaise from the absence of the beatles

this is readily apparent in the press conference stuff on the LZ DVDs where they get understandably irritated at having to answer a bunch of questions about whether or not they are the "new Beatles"

I've been told by guys who were about 5 years younger than Christgau/Marsh/Paul Nelson and entered the critic field in the mid/late 70s that the singer songwriter mill-yer was the accepted thing to rally around.

fwiw, Marsh trashes the 70s singer-songwriter movement at every opportunity, and he and Christgau dug Zeppelin (no idea about Nelson).

it's tought to get an idea for old rockcrit cw cuz alot of the big names deliberately set themselves apart from it in alot of ways so you have to glean it from them either mocking the cw (lester bangs) or acknowledging it and either refining it or bucking it in passing (xgau).

MBJ/ttEG: you have probly noted my anti Marsh comments before. So I should mention that in Robert Draper's RS book from 1992, he was remembered by fellow staffers there as repping for 70s soul like Al Green and Gamble/Huff, which was considered to be like ultra commercial sell out ariana grande shit by the james taylor/linda ronstadt advocates at the mag at the time.

do not ever remember reading Marsh or Xgau big upping LZ, but do know that Marsh liked Jackson Browne, who was a major major RS totem, as well as an artist that Paul Nelson remained hung up over for the overwhelming portion of his life. I do know that Xgau sometime in the 90s was very very complimentary about some minor hendrix reissues that you would imagine only David Fricke and the likes of Dan Aquilante doing backflips over; at this time, he did not acknowledge that maybe "psychedelic uncle tom" remark was a bit over the top. has he ever?

I've read that Draper book, albeit maybe 20+ years ago, and while I don't remember that specific passage about Marsh, that sounds about right -- I'm glad he championed Philly soul, Green et al. RS certainly wasn't otherwise giving it the coverage it deserved.

Marsh has a couple of Zeppelin songs (I think just "Whole Lotta Love" and "Rock & Roll") in his 1001 singles book, and yep, I knew he was a huge Browne booster. I never got into Browne myself, but he always struck me as several cuts above someone like James Taylor.

Interestingly, Marsh and Harry Chapin were close friends:

And Harry and I just agreed that we didn’t agree about the quality of his music. And I miss him. He was a really good friend. It was funny, there was a record store about a block from my house, and I went down there to get something one day, this was in the summertime, and one of the clerks who knew me said, “Oh well, did you hear that Harry Chapin just died in a car accident out on Long Island? I’m sure that’s a great day in rock criticism for you,” or something. Totally legitimate thing for him to say. And I literally ran out of the store to go home and find out, could this be true?

the last couple years of the band go down in bad vibes like the end of goodfellas

Man, otm. So sad and tragic and sordid and scary and paranoid. It's really too bad, because they all sound like they were generally OK people, until the drugs and alcohol really took hold. In Bonzo's case he and his cohort were reduced to cavemen of the worst sort. Page just sort of checks out. Plant stays aloof. JPJ it seems has been in a different orbit all along. As the book points out, though, they were among the first to deal with this sort of mass success in this sort of environment. It's like they did for playing arenas what Black Flag did for DIY punk venues, pioneering the way it was done before anyone really knew what they were doing, albeit at far, far ends of the spectrum. There's a line (har har) in here about a band like U2 now having so much more going on in their lives than just the band, but back in the '70s, being in LZ was pretty much a full-time gig, and the notion you could have other interests or applications of your energies, let alone a life outside the bubble, was almost unheard of.

LOL at how little a shit I give about Bad Company, amazed they were ever players. Nice to read some cameo quotes from the Damned, Dave Edmunds, Nick Lowe and others in the Stiff world, weird they have a role in this story at all, however tangential.

Per this last bit, btw, the book really highlights the excesses of LZ as much if not more than the standard prog usuals as prompting punk. 25 minute drum solos? I'd form a punk band, too.

The part where Peter Grant and Cole beat up Bill Grahams employee right in front of Graham was like what has this thing become?

Shouldve beat up bill graham imo

Paul Nelson, on the evidence of that collection published a few years ago, was an unrepentant male singer-songwriter auteurist (Browne, Zevon, etc).