King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

Huh. Wonder where I posted that? Anyway, I thought it was a lot of fun, but ultimately didn't justify the three drummer line-up. I love Bill Rieflin in general, but when you have Pat, who plays like two drummers (including Muir) and Gavin, who plays like two drummers, it's strange to have Rieflin in the fold, considering he is comically restrained. In fact, at some points I thought he actually was there for some form of comic relief. Huge fill from Harrison! Huge fill from Pat! Rieflin ... taps a cymbal. He did play keys, I guess, and someone has to man the faux Mellotron, though I could have sworn Fripp did some of that, too.

Anyway, Levin (along with Pat) was the MVP, Fripp's solos were lunatic, Collins' return was largely welcome (though there is no place for soprano sax in "Red"). Jakko ... I would have preferred less of his stuff. He did a good job filling the gaps, I guess, handling utility player duties on guitar, vox and flute. I liked the setlist otherwise, so maybe "Scarcity of Miracles" is in there to give them a breather? He's no David Sylvian, though.

In the end I liked the 2008 edition of KC better, since they still played most of the rockin' stuff ("Red," "Larks II," "Level 5") and since Belew's enthusiasm was only matched this night by Pat, who is a nut, and Levin, who has fun playing anything. The rest of the band was so earnest, strict and ascetic. The irony of this line-up is that I think the Belew-era is still largely in line with Fripp's current/contemporary goals/philosophy, so taking him out of the picture robs the band of a more identifiable character. It was cool to hear the old stuff, but except for "Red" is was pretty much replicated like the old versions. And the new version of "Red" was kind of dud.

finally have a chance to listen to that Perfect Pair video sund4r linked. This is fucking great. Pretty good sound q too for what I assume is a vhs rip?

I hadn't seen them before admittedly. But I was a lot less blah about the show – in particular because I think this is the first time Fripp has really acknowledged the post ITCOCK/pre-LTIA band in a meaningful way. As much a fan of the 1973-4 band as I am (and am about to be more so w the LTIA box), I was genuinely excited about this as that era represents a pretty different aesthetic.

Oh, I agree. The show was by no means bleh. Just figured that fripp had moved on. He's not the nostalgic sort, and the show wasn't always a convincing meld of the then and now, IMO. Still cool!

hey, can any of you fanatics school me on the 30th anniversary remasters vs. the new (40th?) ones? My local store just got Starless, USA, and Discipline in used, and I am tempted. I only have them on vinyl.

(they got the 30th Anniv. remasters in, to be clear)

my understanding is Lizard = do not buy any former edition, demand the 40th anniv. The other 40th anniv I have heard nothing but good about but I think Lizard is the most revelatory?

30th pretty standard remasters. Sound cleaner, couple of bonus tracks. Newer 40th ones were (usually) remixed by Fripp and Steven Wilson, whose fresh ears/approach brings out some new stuff. Plus 5.1 mixes and a bunch of bonus stuff. Demos, rough mixes, live stuff.

I have some of the 30ths and they sound great to me, I only have Lizard in the 40th editions

Just got the LTIA box. On disc one, their first gig. Wow.

40th of Lizard and Islands are both really good, and whatever the most recent Court is also the one to get. I actually got the vinyl edition and it's amazing (I have flacs of the rest of that box though). 30th are fine for everything else to my ears; I've "heard" the 40ths and they're ok but they don't change my opinion about the music the way they did for Lizard. If you have surround though it's an entirely different animal (I don't bother with it).

the DGM web store breaks down what's on the 40th anniversary editions. There are a fair amount of them- the 80s albums for instance- that use the 30th anniversary remasters and add some bonus tracks.

thanks everyone, I will pick those up today

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to their credit none of the more recent sets replace old mixes with new ones, right? They generally include the original mix, Wilson/Fripp remixes, Wilson surround mixes and so on. Totally comprehensive, no rewriting of history.

The live discs, awesomely, are carefully mixed fusions of soundboards, bootlegs, etc. To get the best sound.

speaking of which, I clearly need that Absent Lovers thing y'all are raving about

Yeah, the 40th anniversary two-disc sets (I have Larks', Starless, Red and USA) have the new mix on the CD, and all previous mixes on the DVD, plus additional bonus tracks, video, etc. So if you want to listen to the original 70s LP mix, or any of the mixes that came after, it'll be there.

I think the ITCOCK box actually has a vinyl rip if you're so inclined. They've thought of everything

Just got the /LTIA/ box. On disc one, their first gig. Wow.

As a follow up...

Tons of live material with an ENORMOUS amount of free improvisation (not sure how "free" they were once Muir left) as well as some interesting avenues the material took as they woodshedded it.

A one-track session reel Wilson did of the band in the studio playing all the different parts and aspects of the songs, which is sort of like "Variations on a Theme By Robert Fripp and Friends..."

(Because they totally jam and go in different places than they did on the final record)

Alternate mixes by Wilson like a solo of Jamie Muir's percussion on "Easy Money" (which is fascinating but also hilarious) ...

And the packaging is excellent.

Fat harmonies on Sailor's Tale

So is there live w/Muir stuff on this box that actually sounds half decent? Bc the 2 kccc ones I have w muir are not v listenable.

Tons of live material with an ENORMOUS amount of free improvisation (not sure how "free" they were once Muir left) as well as some interesting avenues the material took as they woodshedded it.

Up until two days ago, I only knew Muir as the percussionist with the Music Improvisation Company, on their brilliant 1968-1971 CD (with Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, and Hugh Davies). That record was something I listened to daily about 20 years ago, and I always found Muir's playing enthralling.

A friend of mine insisted that I'd dig KC in general, and Larks' Tongues in particular. ITCOCK is great; I'm a sucker for anything with a Mellotron. But wow, LTIA is kind of blowing my mind.

Muir's finest hour imo, and I like those MIC records!

I want that mic cd!

cranking S&BB now, man that heavily-effected solo in "Lament" at around 2:50 is so fuckin heavy and badass

show in SF last night was great. I have a ticket for tonight but may sell it if I can; not sure it will top last night. bought a Red t-shirt from Fripp's sister who was handling merch; wondered if I should get M or L, she said "you have less of a tummy than some of these fans!"

arrangements were good, never thought I'd see Sailors Tale and Starless performed live. Rieflin does really hold back, he's barely a drummer; in bits where they'd trade off, beatles-the-end like solo-wise, it was actually kind of funny.

Does Fripp revisit that freaky aggressive zone from the studio version in "Sailor's Tale"?

I hope I get those tracks tonight!

They could have at least had Rieflin sing. What a weird career the guy has had. Ministry, Swans, KMFDM, REM, Robyn Hitchcock, King Crimson. I think Fripp just likes him personally. I mean, dag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGj-MgNwLyE

Also, when he sings, he sings a bit like David Sylvian, so he could have really added something else to this current KC set, imo.

Does Fripp revisit that freaky aggressive zone from the studio version in "Sailor's Tale"?

― it's taco science, but it works like taco magic (WilliamC), Saturday, October 4, 2014 12:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post

freaky aggressive...word

If not Rieflin maybe they could've gotten Chris Connelly. A Connelly-fronted Crim would be AWESOME. (Not that there's anything wrong with Jakko, per se.)

Speaking of "Sailors Tale", has anyone heard that bootleg from '78 of Fripp doing Sister Midnight->The Sailor's Tale with Blondie? It's wicked stuff.

Well, let me just link it, it's on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_2-6fA57d4

If not Rieflin maybe they could've gotten Chris Connelly. A Connelly-fronted Crim would be AWESOME. (Not that there's anything wrong with Jakko, per se.)

Speaking of "Sailors Tale", has anyone heard that bootleg from '78 of Fripp doing Sister Midnight->The Sailor's Tale with Blondie? It's wicked stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-f0P7-fxUQ

the worst thing about jakko is his hair, which I guess at least seems authentically 70's crim. he also sings a bit too sincerely for me and comes across a bit too much like a fan. He's a fantastic guitar player though, as is totally evident on this tour. He handles fripp's other parts and lots of bits belew used to play without hesitation.

Yeah, it's a bit unfair, since Jakko seems a hair away from one of those guys who wins a contest to front his favorite band, yet he's clearly a good singer/guitarist. Still, a guy with a custom ITCOCK graphic guitar seems like the last dude Fripp would hire, even if he doesn't hurt anything.

I bet it would be fun to make a list of everyone this collective iteration of Crimson has played with. John Lennon! Peter Gabriel! XTC! Mr. Mister! Ministry! R.E.M.! Rolling Stones! Tears For Fears! Peter Gabriel! Blondie! Porcupine Tree! The Roches! Brian Eno! David Bowie!

and the Kinks! Jakko took the place of Dave Davies for about a month in the 90s (so yes, there was briefly a Kinks lineup with only one original member).

Swans too

I bet it would be fun to make a list of everyone this collective iteration of Crimson has played with. John Lennon! Peter Gabriel! XTC! Mr. Mister! Ministry! R.E.M.! Rolling Stones! Tears For Fears! Peter Gabriel! Blondie! Porcupine Tree! The Roches! Brian Eno! David Bowie!

Is there a thread for this type of thing? Listing all the journeyman dudes who've played in, like, 65 different bands since the '70s?

The Ubiquitous HIred Gun Session Veteran Shout-Out Thread ?

I feel like session dudes are different from dudes who show up in the touring lineup of Foreigner one year and are backing Ted Nugent the next and then join Whitesnake and then...and then...

You mean dudes like Bill Buford, who went from Yes to Crimson to Genesis? Or John Wetton, who went Crimson ->Roxy Music->UK->Asia? Or session cats like Jim Keltner, Simon Phillips and Pino Palladino who record with everyone while essentially playing full time in various bands? Or, like, GE Smith, who I last saw playing bass with Roger Waters?

that list would be freakin' huge. even if you just took the 80's Fripp/Belew/Levin/Bruford lineup. I think Tony Levin is 2 degrees of separation from just about everyone.

Belew gets Paul Simon (he's on Graceland!), Zappa, Talking Heads, Bowie, Nine Inch Nails ...

So I am finally getting around to chiming in on the tour- I went to see them on Sat 10/4 and immediately went on vacation afterward so the memory is not as crisp as last sunday(!)...but all in all this was a lot of fun, and hopefully set the stage for some further development of this group.

The setlist was as good as I could have hoped for- they didn't leave anything out that I would have truly wished to hear. Maybe ITCOCK, but that wouldn't really have fit.

Due to my seat I never even saw Fripp, not that it was a big deal but I couldn't get a read on him sonically either- aside from his leads, I never could really discern when he was soloing etc. He seemed like he cut a lot of solos short, most notably the Sailors Tale- that may have been just my expectations though.
Jakko was a remarkably able singer- I was surprised at how good his vocals sounded across a range of material. I was not completely convinced by Collins as a soloist- I thought he got a bit too much airtime vs his actual playing- he seemed like he sort of repeated a lot of ideas song-to-song. I did like the way he turned VROOOM into a chugga-chugga Peter Gunn theme sounding thing though.

Overall the ensemble stuff was the best- Level Five sounded great, as did Pictures of a City.

As for the 3 drummers they were the absolute highlight of the show. Maybe because you guys kept talking about Rieflin I paid extra attention to him- I didn't think he was as understated as everyone said. But overall, I thought the whole concept worked quite well, and the intensity of the percussion ratcheted up the tension nicely, and enhanced the display of overall power that the material at its best is designed for. Their combined playing on Red made the aforementioned and unfortunate soprano sax that much easier to ignore.

This was a memorable show and I hope they do more in the future, even if it's just touring occasionally. I'd definitely see them play again.

In that Fripp Wire interview above, he apparently holds a grudge because some Wire writer a few years back claimed "King Crimson were only ever a poor man's Black Sabbath, nothing more or less". Who the fuck would think that, save someone blatantly trying to troll Fripp?

The letters page in the Wire this month reveals that the writer in question was Ian Penman, and what he actually wrote was that KC were a "snob's Black Sabbath"

makes a little more sense. doesn't entirely make sense though.

doesn't make sense at all, unless all you care about KC is Fripp's guitar work.

Well, if he was trying to say Crimson was just a self-consciously "smarter" hard rock act, I suppose there are elements of that there. But there is a lot more to Crimson than the heavy stuff.

The really insulting thing about that description is the implication that snobs aren't allowed to like Black Sabbath. Nonsense. My love of Black Sabbath is every bit as snobbish as my love of King Crimson.

As for the actual nexus between King Crimson and Black Sabbath, that of course is the band Iron Claw.