Last time I looked, singing was still being a musician.
― Matt DC, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:09 (ten years ago) link
if you mean auteur, it doesn't mean what you think it means (but it's still applicable)if you mean hauteur, it also doesn't mean that, and it's definitely applicable
thanks and yes I got it wrong.
but people have always said she couldn't sing. it doesn't matter. she's still a musician. these definitions are irrelevant.
― Raccoon Tanuki, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:33 (ten years ago) link
bricoleur?
― the tune was space, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:39 (ten years ago) link
female pop singers can barely ever win when it comes to singing. either they "can't sing" (a charge rarely levelled at dudes where singing off-key too often codes as authenticity) or they're emotionless show-boating bots (mariah, whitney, celine)
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:43 (ten years ago) link
who was saying madonna can't sing? i'm confused.
― Treeship, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:44 (ten years ago) link
but prolego otm.
either they "can't sing" (a charge rarely levelled at dudes where singing off-key too often codes as authenticity)
I would like to point out for the record that I say this about dudes all the time (hi dere Ryan Tedder)
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:53 (ten years ago) link
Same with men people always have their opinions. Dylan, McCartney, Lennon. I guess your barely ever win would have to include quite a few who do like Tracy Chapman, Joni, Flack, Diana Ross, Lauryn, Adele, Nina Simeone, Dolly, Dusty, Mary, Estefan, Kate Bush, Aretha, Aaliyah. Just because a few like Rihanna and Britney can't hold a note, Aguilera can't reign it in doesn't say that women vocalists 'never win when it comes to singing'
― Raccoon Tanuki, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:55 (ten years ago) link
xpost a lot of people clearly do! prolego is referring to the voice of the patriarchy, just like everyone on every ILM thread
― example (crüt), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 16:58 (ten years ago) link
obviously with sexism being a major feature of recording industry in 20th century history of solo female pop music is more replete with female popstars who can't sing great. but obvs there's a tonne who are incredible and given all their due and to say female pop singers have "never won" on accreditation of their voices is just plain wrong and really a bizarre formulation.
― Raccoon Tanuki, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:05 (ten years ago) link
i didn't say "never win", only rarely. but it's a bit suspicious listing these (often soul) singers that are safely canonized 20/30 years after they were popular. aaliyah was definitely not considered a great singer by critics or indie dudes when she was alive! kate bush was sidelined for the first decade of her career. mariah is only starting to get her due respect now she's birthed several imitators. i'm sure it'll be great in 30 years time when jazmine sullivan is retrospectively judged as one of the all time great vocalists but women are rarely given the props they deserve when they're actually active on the charts.
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:18 (ten years ago) link
Do the opinions of music critics really matter though? All of the figures you mentioned "won" in the industry. It was only punk ideologues who didn't vibe to Kate Bush.
― Treeship, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:21 (ten years ago) link
well i doubt any of them are crying over the opinions of music critics, least of all madonna, but a lot of systemic sexism within the music press does seem to have had an effect about how ppl often talk about female artists in conversation? idk
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:35 (ten years ago) link
prolego otm
― lex pretend, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:40 (ten years ago) link
"They need something edgy. They need songwriting," he said. "She can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. They actually need songs. I’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing." "I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs," he said. "It's been a downward slide (since). Ray of Light is not cool. And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. It really shows a drain of values. People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. People need more sugar or something."
"I guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs," he said. "It's been a downward slide (since). Ray of Light is not cool. And all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. It really shows a drain of values. People need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. People need more sugar or something."
― everything, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:41 (ten years ago) link
Ariel Pink is full of shit, duh
I only like early Madonna but it has nothing to do with a "drain of values"
― example (crüt), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:44 (ten years ago) link
according to pitchfork's ongoing beef coverage, black lips is siding with pink, Waxahatchee with grimes. i sure hope madonna doesn't wind up indie's archduke ferdinand
― da croupier, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:45 (ten years ago) link
They need something edgy. TRUEThey need songwriting. TRUEShe can’t just have her Avicii, her producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for her to gyrate to and pretend that she’s 20 years old. TRUEThey actually need songs. TRUEI’m partly responsible for that return-to-values thing. FALSEI guess it’s called ‘throwback’, but the first record was so good because of the songs. TRUEIt's been a downward slide (since). FALSERay of Light is not cool. FALSEAnd all the other stuff she’s done after that, it’s not like it matters. TRUEIt really shows a drain of values. FALSEPeople need more substance in their mac-and-cheese. FALSE People need more sugar or something. FALSE
― everything, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:48 (ten years ago) link
whose side is tapes n' tapes on?
― GhostTunes on my Pono (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:48 (ten years ago) link
grimes is a personal hero and role model to me but i think she is ceding too much to ariel pink by engaging with his delusional nonsense. she shouldn't be in a feud with a known maniac, much as i enjoy his early lo-fi albums
― Treeship, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:49 (ten years ago) link
has menomena weighed in?
― GhostTunes on my Pono (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:49 (ten years ago) link
"hung up" alone matters more than this dude's entire pathetic existence.
FALSEST thing ever clearly
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:50 (ten years ago) link
and tUnE-yArDs?
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:50 (ten years ago) link
Why does implying Madonna can't write her own music has to do anything with gender?
― Moka, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:50 (ten years ago) link
what do majical cloudz think of all this?
― marcos, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:51 (ten years ago) link
the opinions of (some) critics shouldn't matter but often the most influential writers have been the male writers who are quick to dismiss female artists and who tend to champion those who are most like them cf white dudes full of ennui. it's not so much outright dismissal of many female musicians as much as it is ignoring them completely and not including them in the history to an extent.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:52 (ten years ago) link
grimes can pick what battles she feels like
the amount of misogynistic bullshit in the music industry is so much that pushing back against it - any of it - is all about picking your battles, and props to grimes for fighting at all. why criticise her for speaking out?? i don't think keeping quiet will solve anything.
― lex pretend, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:53 (ten years ago) link
I think Ariel Pink is being an asshole but I don't see the misogyny in his comment.
― Moka, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:53 (ten years ago) link
i am confused about this whole "ariel pink sucks" thing. do we not find "every night i die at miyagi's" compellingly fucked anymore? i don't know why people are surprised that the artist behind "worn copy" says stupid, crazy shit.
― Treeship, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:54 (ten years ago) link
the misogyny is that ariel pink probably wouldn't say "Usher can’t just have his Avicii, his producers or whatever, come up with a new techno jam for him to gyrate to and pretend that he’s 20 years old." You can say OH YES HE WOULD, but that kind of extraction from the creative process is far more commonly assigned to female artists
― da croupier, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:56 (ten years ago) link
lol just realised treeship's last couple of criticisms basically amount to telling grimes to stfu
"music critics don't matter anyway so you should be quiet!""ariel pink is crazy so you should be quiet!"
― lex pretend, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:57 (ten years ago) link
always a reason why women talking about misogyny don't actually need to speak, right
mariah is only starting to get her due respect now she's birthed several imitators.
This is flatly untrue, at least in the US.
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 17:58 (ten years ago) link
it's actually funny/completely fucking boring how just about every producer that has worked with madonna has come out afterwards and said stuff like "omg she's actually hugely involved with the music making progress!!! she actually writes the lyrics and melodies and contributes to nearly all production decisions!!!". diplo being the latest in the past 30 years. sometimes i think it's b/c she's not stressed her musicianship enough, but then i look at say mariah who mentions she's a songwriter primarily in every damn interview and press release and every year i still here people saying they thought "all i want for xmas is you" is a cover. the autership and autonomy of female pop stars is constantly doubted and questioned in a way it just isn't with men of similar stature.
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:03 (ten years ago) link
xp lex, that seems uncharitable. i wouldn't be a grimes fan if i didn't like that she spoke out about gender issues. and i didn't say that her or anyone shouldn't speak out against music critics, i was just questioning aloud the narrative prolega put forth about kate bush et al being "sidelined." sidelined by whom? left out of whose canon? with ariel pink, it all just seems weird to me that he is being engaged at all for his comments about madonna's people commissioning him to restore her "legitmacy." these comments were not rooted in reality. grimes and whoever else can critique them -- go nuts -- but i don't understand why i can't have views on these things without being accused of having some kind of ulterior motive
― Treeship, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:04 (ten years ago) link
Kate bush was bas
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:06 (ten years ago) link
Whoops hang on
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:07 (ten years ago) link
kate bush was basically someone who was never talked about with the same level of respect and attention that many of her inferior male contemporaries were and still are to some degree. and i doubt some dipshit session musician would come out and say the same things about, idk, peter gabriel as he said abt kate bush.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:12 (ten years ago) link
wait
"All I Want For Xmas Is You" is not a cover? That.... is amazing I always thought it was some 1940s staple that'd been updated, holy shit
― fgti, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:13 (ten years ago) link
MIND BLOWN
― everything, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:18 (ten years ago) link
It's weird that he would pick on Madonna, cause regardless of whether she wrote her own shit (which sometimes she did, sometimes she didn't) she has always been very clearly in charge of her own creations, and I'm sure even now she dictates to the label what she wants to do. If Avicii produces a track on Madonna's new album, it's because Madonna wanted him there, not because of the machinations of an A&R guy.
― voodoo chili, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:26 (ten years ago) link
I still fail to see how saying that Madonna just knows how to dance and hire producers to write her music is a comment directed against all women and not just her, if anything it's a snide comment against pop stardom. I've made similar comments myself and they have nothing to do with gender. It's just feeding on the idea that pop stars very rarely write their own music. I see One Direction as dancing puppets that don't write their own songs, does that make me a misandrist?
― Moka, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:28 (ten years ago) link
yup
sorry ;_;
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:29 (ten years ago) link
I'm not defending him, an artist like him doesn't get to pick on an artist like Madonna. That's like ducks shooting at guns. I just don't think he was being misogynistic.
― Moka, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:30 (ten years ago) link
(I was not being serious, in case that was unclear; hopefully I have never used the ;_; emoticon in a serious post)
― 💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:31 (ten years ago) link
kate bush was basically someone who was never talked about with the same level of respect and attention that many of her inferior male contemporaries were and still are to some degree.
do you mean like in the press or what
everybody I knew back when would never ever stfu about the godlike genius of Kate Bush basically from Never Forever forward
― The Complainte of Ray Tabano, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:32 (ten years ago) link
moka, rather than wail away that assuming a pop star heavily involved in their music is just an old body that thinks she's a young body isn't inherently sexist, maybe just note that a lot of people think that's an assumption most often aimed at women? rather than defending the assumption?
― da croupier, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:36 (ten years ago) link
yeah i meant the press, i mean obviously there's always been a big kate bush fanbase that has always loved her.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:36 (ten years ago) link
it's still shitty to assume people don't have anything to do with their music just because they're attractive and can dance. even if you do it to enrique iglesias or some other boy.
― da croupier, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:37 (ten years ago) link
certain members of one direction do actually write their own songs! (liam, louis, harry even did that awful ariana grande song) just usually the unspoken assumption behind coming for the likes of one direction and justin bieber is "lol teenage girls" rather than misandry (not saying that's you here moka). a more relevant example here would be justin timberlake who despite working entirely with timbaland for two albums has never been called his muse or puppet in a way certain female popstars have.
but obviously pop nowadays is mostly dominated by women (thx in part to madonna's impact) so they bare the brunt of kneejerk anti-pop hatred.
― prolego, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 18:37 (ten years ago) link