Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I know that Baker is held in high regard by some, but oftentimes I've found myself listening to his drumming and wondering exactly why that is. He comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick as a person too. I dunno, I just haven't heard anything that he's done which has impressed me in the same way as, say, Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience, let alone Bonham or Moon.

I like Cream -- even the live stuff -- and while I think Baker has a somewhat unique voice on the kit, I always thought he was vastly overrated, particularly next to Bonham and (especially) Moon. I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

fwiw, though, Baker concedes that Moon used a double-bass setup before he did:

Actually Moonie [Keith Moon] did it first. We were at a Duke Ellington concert where Sam Woodyard was playing. All of his drummers always played two bass drums and I was very impressed with Sam and some of the things he did with two bass drums. Moonie was there and I said, ‘I’m going to get two bass drums’ so I asked Ludwig to make me a kit whereas Moonie just went into the drum shop and bought two Premier kits and joined them together. So he actually did it before me, but we both got the idea at the same place and time.

Mmm, think Sam beat them both, there...

there's a whole big steve hoffman thread or two about the sound issues on houses of the holy, particularly the distortion on the track "the ocean." i think the bottom line is that if you order it from europe you'll get the version pressed at the right plant w/o distortion, and if you order it from the u.s. you'll probably get the one pressed at the wrong plant.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/distortion-on-led-zeppelin-houses-of-the-holy-vinyl-remaster.389892/

Haha Zeppelin vinyl pressing fuckup, that must be a code red on the Hoffman boards

I know that Baker is held in high regard by some, but oftentimes I've found myself listening to his drumming and wondering exactly why that is. He comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick as a person too. I dunno, I just haven't heard anything that he's done which has impressed me in the same way as, say, Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience, let alone Bonham or Moon.

have you seen the doc?

have you seen "Gonks go Beat" ?

Haha Zeppelin vinyl pressing fuckup, that must be a code red on the Hoffman boards

― you say tomato/i say imago (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:13 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hahahahaha! I must confess though, I lurk there from time to time and often find what they have to say extremely useful when it comes to the matters of pressings and general audiophile geekery!

have you seen the doc?

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:16 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The one where he comes across as an obnoxious, cantankerous dick?

ginger baker's jazz drumming is so leaden and heavy-handed compared to any jazz dude though

― festival culture (Jordan), Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:05 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OTM.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Cream as much as anyone who enjoys that band, but Baker's drumming just doesn't excite me... and never has!

Yeah I honestly love those goofs at Hoffman and there are some seriously knowledgeable people on there. I think I was first aware of it in those dark days when we found out the Beatles vinyl was being sourced from digital *shudders*

One of the biggest boners in the Baker doc is when he rips on John Bonham for not swinging enough or something (unless I'm making that up). I like Ginger Baker as a drummer just fine, but I wouldn't want him sitting in for Tony Williams any time soon. Like, even here, is Blakey dumbing himself, trying to outrock Ginger, or is Ginger trying to outjazz Art?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qghrsBfSbgk

But then there's this, where Ginger is really getting it going, like a "real" jazz drummer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEpMLiqzZd8

I like Ginger Baker as a drummer just fine, but I wouldn't want him sitting in for Tony Williams any time soon.

Ha, that reminds me, Keith Moon was also Tony Williams' favorite drummer. "He's beautiful. Totally free."

Like, even here, is Blakey dumbing himself, trying to outrock Ginger, or is Ginger trying to outjazz Art?

I don't necessarily get the sense that Blakey is trying to outrock Ginger; maybe more showing that he can do everything Ginger can do, plus everything Ginger can't do.

Seems to me Baker is in a halfway house of neither being the premier jazz or rock drummer of his generation, not that he had to be, but i cant imagine conversation based purely on his prowess is anything like what it was decades ago

Baker is an OK jazz drummer with just enough swing to make his rock work sound cool and interesting. I don't think the apposite comparison is Bonham or Moon; I think it's Bill Ward, who actually swings harder at times, but would have been totally incapable of handling a real jazz set.

Yeah. Bill Ward can swing. Moon is a mess. Bonham can groove better than any of them.

Moon is sort of a mess but what an incredible mess
The Who is basically 4 dudes trying to show each other up

Nobody's mentioned Charlie Watts yet?

Then again, it's a Zep thread, not a Ginger Baker one.

Baker is the worst cunt I've ever had to spend time with.

he is a dick, but tbf he is also pretty funny
http://arthurmag.com/2009/11/02/ginger-baker-on-fela-kuti-1999/

that's pretty good.

Absolutely nothing. (pause) That was a combination of a lot of things before it, that we made the record, and a lot of things after it. It wasn’t just a one-off thing, I mean I did a five-week tour with Fela’s band when
Tony Allen was ill.

Oh, okay—

“Oh, okay.” Yes. ISN’T THAT FUCKING AMAZING? “How extraordinary!” Fucking, man…

lol

baker's autobiog is a miserable experience. "I was shitty to everyone, I cheated on my wife constantly, there wasn't anyone I wouldn't fuck over for drugs or for horses or just because I fancied it, why won't anyone spend any time with me whatsoever?" It's up therewith Chevy Chase's bio as an example of the form that lets you know, in no uncertain terms, what an irredeemably fucked up character the subject is.

he seems awful in the movie too, but the director seemed a risible douche also.

horses?

i enjoyed the movie, like in a weird way after all the rodiguezes and deaths etc etc it was almost nice to see one where there was no redemption narrative like he's a disagreeable motherfucker right to the end

this one guy on the hoffman board linked to a sample of the distortion issue on "the ocean" which is indeed pretty bad:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=dabf476bb2a81cf6&id=DABF476BB2A81CF6%21322&ithint=file,wav&authkey=!AON7uyn387pPefM

ginger's dead into horses, had a big farm in south africa where he was training them

Ginger is bonkers, Bonham is the one member of Zep that is timeless. And JP is otm, he could've criticized many things about his style but the man knew how to swing.

Bonham didn't know how to be subtle, that's why the calm acoustic guitar sections of LZ very rarely feature any sort or percussion. He was an attention whore. Either way I'm sure that if him or Keith Moon were alive and gave themselves the challenge to behave and do jazz they would kick Ginger's ass any day of the year.

I hate undefinable terms like 'swing' and 'groove' but to my ears Leibezeit seems to have had both more than Bonham.

I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

Boom! And so it's apt that he played with Clapton, who was in the same boat - gaining fame playing authentic respectful blues guitar with the Bluesbreakers, then Hendrix shows up who has a complete understanding of the language of the blues but uses it as a launchpad to outer space.

One of the things I love about Bonham is that Page would throw all kinds of stop-start and odd-time riffs at him and Bonham could make them sound like the most natural thing in the world. I don't think that really applies to Baker/Cream or Moon/Who.

Was listening to "III" bonuses yesterday and marvelling at Bonham's drumming on the "Out OnThe Tiles" instrumental.

Bonham was not always subtle, no, but he threw in all sorts of genius fills and accents and whatnot, not to mention him and JPJ being able to manage and navigate any number of weird turnarounds (that, too often, actually threw off Page live, who stationed himself in front of the kit to watch Bonham's cues). And frankly, Bonham knew more than well when to hold back. "Kashmir" is nearly as simple as it gets, except for all the stuff that is not so simple. But most of that song is him plodding along - bass, snare, bass, snare. There is no way Baker or Moon or most anyone could have stayed still that long. Same with much of "The Ocean." And something like "Fool in the Rain" is both subtle and sophisticated, and certainly not showy.

Honestly,every member of LZ was an attention whore except maybe JPJ, and even he got a 25 minute solo.

xpost Frankly Leibezeit belongs in a different discussion. Much different drummer playing a much different style of music.

I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

Boom! And so it's apt that he played with Clapton, who was in the same boat - gaining fame playing authentic respectful blues guitar with the Bluesbreakers, then Hendrix shows up who has a complete understanding of the language of the blues but uses it as a launchpad to outer space.

― the_ecuador_three, Friday, December 12, 2014 6:04 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is pretty OTM

though i will say in the modern world in which taylor hawkins from foo fighters is considered a "great drummer" i wouldn't kick ginger out of my band!

It's true, I would definitely fire him by email rather than risk physical contact.

For some bizarre reason I had the fool idea that Keith Moon took lessons from Philly Joe Jones, which led me to this excellent piece by Rob Chapman:

http://www.rob-chapman.com/pages/moon.html

JB is in my top 5 drummers of all time -- and yeah, he could be subtle when it was needed (which was rare for LZ songs -- usually when they wanted "subtle", they just axed the drums entirely). His pattern in "Fool in the Rain" has to go down as one of the all time great grooves, and I can't name a SINGLE hard rock drummer from that time who could have played it so well, or even come up with something like this. Maybe Aynsley Dunbar? But then he had the jazz chops.

I never quite got what was supposed to be so great about Ginger Baker. I think at the time, he was one of the drummers who gave legitimacy to rock music, especially heavy stuff. Similar to Mitch Mitchell (who I like better) or even someone like Michael Shrieve (whose solo in Woodstock is more fun than anything I've heard Baker play), he kind of symbolized this new idea that rock drumming could be taken seriously in its own right. And it wasn't as if Cream was the Ventures or something, basically just session musicians playing tunes for the kids -- they were a "real" band, they were, uh, hip.

Also, it's funny to me how quickly the floodgates opened -- once you get to the 70s, awesome rock drummers seem to fall out of the sky, as if they were just waiting for the moment in time when serious players could get big playing this new kind of music. I think Ginger Baker helped this happen -- and in a way, Cream got "muso" respect a lot quicker than LZ did, so I imagine drummers were repping him a lot more at the time. But then there came Billy Cobham, Dunbar, Ian Paice, Neil Peart etc etc etc...

Guys like Aynsley Dunbar played in pop bands in the mid 60s I'm sure they weren't given the opportunity to let loose.

there's a reason why people sample Bonham breaks and not Moon or Baker.

The thing about Moon, though, is that he never tried to groove like Bonham (or Baker) -- it's like saying Milford Graves could't play metric time like Philly Joe Jones.

What Moon did was completely explode/ignore the traditional role of The Drummer. Moon was the lead percussionist in the Who; if anything, Townshend's role was more that of a traditional drummer than Moon's (a role Townshend has retrospectively said he hated).

*couldn't

sure, it's a beautiful thing in its own right (although i never listened to the Who very much). i do think that Bonham's style happened to age very well into the modern world of hip-hop/electronic music/beats though.

Absolutely. Bonham's impact on hip-hop is significant and measurable; Moon's and Baker's is nonexistent.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

yeah that is funny, as wild as he was he was playing to automation

I think Ginger Baker helped this happen

And Michael Giles, big time.

Goddamn, that Klosterman interview with Page is a shitshow.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, December 12, 2014 4:32 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is a fact that's not brought up often enough, IMO! A lot gets written about his rapid-fire lead drumming style, but tracks like 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' etc. show that he could, when needed, stay in time with sequenced backing!

I guess in a weird way that makes Moon kind of a forerunner to all the modern drummers now that stay in time with Pro Tooled backing onstage, by way of the early '80s drummers who played along with CR-78's and stuff.

Klosterman comes across as a dick in that interview. Sheesh. Never read him so maybe he just IS one?

idk if he's a dick but he's p terrible