Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I hate undefinable terms like 'swing' and 'groove' but to my ears Leibezeit seems to have had both more than Bonham.

I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

Boom! And so it's apt that he played with Clapton, who was in the same boat - gaining fame playing authentic respectful blues guitar with the Bluesbreakers, then Hendrix shows up who has a complete understanding of the language of the blues but uses it as a launchpad to outer space.

One of the things I love about Bonham is that Page would throw all kinds of stop-start and odd-time riffs at him and Bonham could make them sound like the most natural thing in the world. I don't think that really applies to Baker/Cream or Moon/Who.

Was listening to "III" bonuses yesterday and marvelling at Bonham's drumming on the "Out OnThe Tiles" instrumental.

Bonham was not always subtle, no, but he threw in all sorts of genius fills and accents and whatnot, not to mention him and JPJ being able to manage and navigate any number of weird turnarounds (that, too often, actually threw off Page live, who stationed himself in front of the kit to watch Bonham's cues). And frankly, Bonham knew more than well when to hold back. "Kashmir" is nearly as simple as it gets, except for all the stuff that is not so simple. But most of that song is him plodding along - bass, snare, bass, snare. There is no way Baker or Moon or most anyone could have stayed still that long. Same with much of "The Ocean." And something like "Fool in the Rain" is both subtle and sophisticated, and certainly not showy.

Honestly,every member of LZ was an attention whore except maybe JPJ, and even he got a 25 minute solo.

xpost Frankly Leibezeit belongs in a different discussion. Much different drummer playing a much different style of music.

I think Baker revered certain drumming traditions, whereas Bonham and Moon expanded on the language of those traditions. And the fact that they blew past him, while he was busy respecting the rules, no doubt irritated him to no end.

Boom! And so it's apt that he played with Clapton, who was in the same boat - gaining fame playing authentic respectful blues guitar with the Bluesbreakers, then Hendrix shows up who has a complete understanding of the language of the blues but uses it as a launchpad to outer space.

― the_ecuador_three, Friday, December 12, 2014 6:04 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is pretty OTM

though i will say in the modern world in which taylor hawkins from foo fighters is considered a "great drummer" i wouldn't kick ginger out of my band!

It's true, I would definitely fire him by email rather than risk physical contact.

For some bizarre reason I had the fool idea that Keith Moon took lessons from Philly Joe Jones, which led me to this excellent piece by Rob Chapman:

http://www.rob-chapman.com/pages/moon.html

JB is in my top 5 drummers of all time -- and yeah, he could be subtle when it was needed (which was rare for LZ songs -- usually when they wanted "subtle", they just axed the drums entirely). His pattern in "Fool in the Rain" has to go down as one of the all time great grooves, and I can't name a SINGLE hard rock drummer from that time who could have played it so well, or even come up with something like this. Maybe Aynsley Dunbar? But then he had the jazz chops.

I never quite got what was supposed to be so great about Ginger Baker. I think at the time, he was one of the drummers who gave legitimacy to rock music, especially heavy stuff. Similar to Mitch Mitchell (who I like better) or even someone like Michael Shrieve (whose solo in Woodstock is more fun than anything I've heard Baker play), he kind of symbolized this new idea that rock drumming could be taken seriously in its own right. And it wasn't as if Cream was the Ventures or something, basically just session musicians playing tunes for the kids -- they were a "real" band, they were, uh, hip.

Also, it's funny to me how quickly the floodgates opened -- once you get to the 70s, awesome rock drummers seem to fall out of the sky, as if they were just waiting for the moment in time when serious players could get big playing this new kind of music. I think Ginger Baker helped this happen -- and in a way, Cream got "muso" respect a lot quicker than LZ did, so I imagine drummers were repping him a lot more at the time. But then there came Billy Cobham, Dunbar, Ian Paice, Neil Peart etc etc etc...

Guys like Aynsley Dunbar played in pop bands in the mid 60s I'm sure they weren't given the opportunity to let loose.

there's a reason why people sample Bonham breaks and not Moon or Baker.

The thing about Moon, though, is that he never tried to groove like Bonham (or Baker) -- it's like saying Milford Graves could't play metric time like Philly Joe Jones.

What Moon did was completely explode/ignore the traditional role of The Drummer. Moon was the lead percussionist in the Who; if anything, Townshend's role was more that of a traditional drummer than Moon's (a role Townshend has retrospectively said he hated).

*couldn't

sure, it's a beautiful thing in its own right (although i never listened to the Who very much). i do think that Bonham's style happened to age very well into the modern world of hip-hop/electronic music/beats though.

Absolutely. Bonham's impact on hip-hop is significant and measurable; Moon's and Baker's is nonexistent.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

yeah that is funny, as wild as he was he was playing to automation

I think Ginger Baker helped this happen

And Michael Giles, big time.

Goddamn, that Klosterman interview with Page is a shitshow.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, December 12, 2014 4:32 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is a fact that's not brought up often enough, IMO! A lot gets written about his rapid-fire lead drumming style, but tracks like 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' etc. show that he could, when needed, stay in time with sequenced backing!

I guess in a weird way that makes Moon kind of a forerunner to all the modern drummers now that stay in time with Pro Tooled backing onstage, by way of the early '80s drummers who played along with CR-78's and stuff.

Klosterman comes across as a dick in that interview. Sheesh. Never read him so maybe he just IS one?

idk if he's a dick but he's p terrible

interesting point about the sequencers. when reading interviews in tape op or whatever i'm always surprised how early click tracks were used in studios, like for putting together soundtracks or commercials in the '50s and '60s. they had some crazy methods for generating them too.

xp something about the way he sets his own context before almost every Q&A seems pretty manipulative.

Yeah, this is a fact that's not brought up often enough, IMO! A lot gets written about his rapid-fire lead drumming style, but tracks like 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' etc. show that he could, when needed, stay in time with sequenced backing!

― Welcome To (Turrican), Friday, December 12, 2014 4:49 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I haven't read it yet, but supposedly there's a section in the new Glyn Johns autobio where he recalls the recording of "Won't Get Fooled Again." He realized at that moment that he was witnessing a pivotal moment in the history of popular music, with this untamed band keeping in perfect sync with a sequenced/synthesizer backing tape and losing none of their edge.

No matter how many times I hear it I never lose my sense of awe about Baba O'Riley

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/led-zeppelin-legend-jimmy-page-embroiled-in-bitter-planning-dispute-with-robbie-williams/

PG remaster has leaked. Lots of great little stereo details apparent this time around. Especially love the low horn-like synth (?) that switches channels during parts of "Kashmir". Nice on 'phones.

"Squeeze my lemon, til the juice leaks on the internet..."

both. more of the latter.

Leaked? It's in the shops over here.
I thought we'd be behind other places.
Is UK before U.S.? I thought Ireland was at least a week behind UK.

Hits U.S. stores tomorrow, I believe.

And sounds gooood.

man the PG remaster is so sizzling

details on the last three reissues:

Track listing for Presence
“Achilles Last Stand”
“For Your Life”
“Royal Orleans”
“Nobody’s Fault But Mine”
“Candy Store Rock”
“Hots on for Nowhere”
“Tea For One”

Disc 2
“Two Ones Are Won”
“For Your Life (Reference Mix)”
“10 Ribs & All/Carrot Pod Pod (Pod)”
“Royal Orleans (Reference Mix)”
“Hots On For Nowhere (Reference Mix)”

Track listing for In Through the Out Door
“In The Evening”
“South Bound Saurez”
“Fool in the Rain”
“Hot Dog”
“Carouselambra”
“All My Love”
“I’m Gonna Crawl”

Disc 2
“In the Evening (Rough Mix)”
“Southbound Piano (South Bound Saurez)”
“Fool in the Rain (Rough Mix)”
“Hot Dog (Rough Mix)”
“The Epic (Carouselambra – Rough Mix)”
“The Hook (All My Love – Rough Mix)”
“Blot (I’m Gonna Crawl – Rough Mix)”

Track listing for Coda
“We’re Gonna Groove”
“Poor Tom”
“I Can’t Quit You Baby”
“Walter s Walk”
“Ozone Baby”
“Darlene”
“Bonzo’s Montreux”
“Wearing and Tearing”

Disc 2
“We’re Gonna Groove (Alternate Mix)”
“If It Keeps On Raining (When the Levee Breaks – Rough Mix)”
“Bonzo’s Montreux (Mix Construction in Progress)”
“Baby Come on Home”
“Sugar Mama (Mix)”
“Poor Tom (Instrumental Mix)”
“Travelling Riverside Blues (BBC Session)”
“Hey, Hey, What Can I Do”

Disc 3
“Four Hands (Four Sticks – Bombay Orchestra)”
“Friends (Bombay Orchestra)”
“St. Tristan’s Sword (Rough Mix)”
“Desire (The Wanton Song – Rough Mix)”
“Bring It On Home (Rough Mix)”
“Walter’s Walk (Rough Mix)”
“Everybody Makes It Through (In the Light – Rough Mix)”

curious why stuff like Four Hands, Friends, etc. are on the Coda reissue and not on earlier reissue

I'm considering picking up the whole set of reissues (the multi-disc versions) once they're all out. I suppose it will depend on price. I have the old gray box, and that sounds great to me. But if I have the extra cash, and Amazon offers a good deal on all nine, I might go for it.

XP: Because how else would they get people to double+ dip on Coda?

Also: Is this 'BBC version' of "Travelling Riverside Blues" the same one that was a bait track on the original box set? Or is it something never before released that's orphaning that version?

Yeah, instead of reissuing Coda, they should've slotted those songs into the reissues for the appropriate albums (e.g., "Poor Tom" on LZIII). It's not like Coda as a standalone collection is canon.

yeah I get why they did it from a financial standpoint it's just weird to reissue Coda as an expanded dumping ground for random outtakes, it's just messy

Funny that Page went on and on about avoiding releasing anything that had already been bootlegged. Um...looks like that's no longer the case.

Loads of albums aren't "canon", but still get a reissue treatment... but yeah, it would have made far more sense to put all of the relevant studio outtakes as bonus tracks on the appropriate albums.

Page seems like a dude that does not realize that after all this time, he is no longer the best authority on things Led Zeppelin. "Wait until you hear this show you've never heard before! It'll ... what? You've heard it? Hmm, OK, get a load of these incredible outtakes from ... how did you know I was going to say that? You have them already? All of them!? Hmm. OK, how about this incredible batch of unreleased songs? Haven't heard them yet, have you? Well, that's because they do not exist, you suckers! Now shut up and buy the records again."

The band were together for 12 years (and touring most of the time) and they ceased recording over 35 years ago. I don't know what the fuck people are expecting, to be honest, some mythical lost album to just magically appear out of nowhere? That's the problem with these fucking "classic" acts like Led Zeppelin and The Beatles etc. It's as if people won't be content until the barrel has been scraped so hard that there's a gaping hole in the bottom of it. "There must be more! There must be more!" ... At some point, there is no more.

what do you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5p6z8QAVYU

"No more unreleased material in the archives, folks, but here's a vintage recording of John Lennon laying down a shit on his toilet at Tittenhurst Park circa 1971"

"*gasps* Oh my god, such genius! What a musical colon! BEST BAND EVAAAAAAA! MUSIC HAS NOT BEEN IMPROVED SINCE THE '70s!!!11!!"

Nothing I've read about 'Carnival of Light' suggests to me that it's anything more than The Beatles dicking around for a long time and that it's probably unreleased for a very good reason.

If they ever make the DVD of the Beatles singles videos, "Carnival of Light" should be the menu music. Anything else gives it undue prominence.

What are the odds on Page's next move being an 'Authorized Bootleg' series of live stuff?

Actually, LZ is pretty unusual for not having a bunch of interesting leftovers. Them and ... Pink Floyd? Bowie? But the Beatles archives stuff has often been illuminating. Likewise Dylan, Springsteen, the Beach Boys and a bunch others. Stones holding tight in terms of cool outtakes, but lots of other acts have done it. I'd buy an LZ set of just isolated Bonham beats.