Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

The thing about Moon, though, is that he never tried to groove like Bonham (or Baker) -- it's like saying Milford Graves could't play metric time like Philly Joe Jones.

What Moon did was completely explode/ignore the traditional role of The Drummer. Moon was the lead percussionist in the Who; if anything, Townshend's role was more that of a traditional drummer than Moon's (a role Townshend has retrospectively said he hated).

*couldn't

sure, it's a beautiful thing in its own right (although i never listened to the Who very much). i do think that Bonham's style happened to age very well into the modern world of hip-hop/electronic music/beats though.

Absolutely. Bonham's impact on hip-hop is significant and measurable; Moon's and Baker's is nonexistent.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

yeah that is funny, as wild as he was he was playing to automation

I think Ginger Baker helped this happen

And Michael Giles, big time.

Goddamn, that Klosterman interview with Page is a shitshow.

Interestingly, though, of those three drummers, only Moon played along to sequencers (or at least the patched-together analog 1970s equivalent thereof).

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, December 12, 2014 4:32 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this is a fact that's not brought up often enough, IMO! A lot gets written about his rapid-fire lead drumming style, but tracks like 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' etc. show that he could, when needed, stay in time with sequenced backing!

I guess in a weird way that makes Moon kind of a forerunner to all the modern drummers now that stay in time with Pro Tooled backing onstage, by way of the early '80s drummers who played along with CR-78's and stuff.

Klosterman comes across as a dick in that interview. Sheesh. Never read him so maybe he just IS one?

idk if he's a dick but he's p terrible

interesting point about the sequencers. when reading interviews in tape op or whatever i'm always surprised how early click tracks were used in studios, like for putting together soundtracks or commercials in the '50s and '60s. they had some crazy methods for generating them too.

xp something about the way he sets his own context before almost every Q&A seems pretty manipulative.

Yeah, this is a fact that's not brought up often enough, IMO! A lot gets written about his rapid-fire lead drumming style, but tracks like 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' etc. show that he could, when needed, stay in time with sequenced backing!

― Welcome To (Turrican), Friday, December 12, 2014 4:49 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I haven't read it yet, but supposedly there's a section in the new Glyn Johns autobio where he recalls the recording of "Won't Get Fooled Again." He realized at that moment that he was witnessing a pivotal moment in the history of popular music, with this untamed band keeping in perfect sync with a sequenced/synthesizer backing tape and losing none of their edge.

No matter how many times I hear it I never lose my sense of awe about Baba O'Riley

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/led-zeppelin-legend-jimmy-page-embroiled-in-bitter-planning-dispute-with-robbie-williams/

PG remaster has leaked. Lots of great little stereo details apparent this time around. Especially love the low horn-like synth (?) that switches channels during parts of "Kashmir". Nice on 'phones.

"Squeeze my lemon, til the juice leaks on the internet..."

both. more of the latter.

Leaked? It's in the shops over here.
I thought we'd be behind other places.
Is UK before U.S.? I thought Ireland was at least a week behind UK.

Hits U.S. stores tomorrow, I believe.

And sounds gooood.

man the PG remaster is so sizzling

details on the last three reissues:

Track listing for Presence
“Achilles Last Stand”
“For Your Life”
“Royal Orleans”
“Nobody’s Fault But Mine”
“Candy Store Rock”
“Hots on for Nowhere”
“Tea For One”

Disc 2
“Two Ones Are Won”
“For Your Life (Reference Mix)”
“10 Ribs & All/Carrot Pod Pod (Pod)”
“Royal Orleans (Reference Mix)”
“Hots On For Nowhere (Reference Mix)”

Track listing for In Through the Out Door
“In The Evening”
“South Bound Saurez”
“Fool in the Rain”
“Hot Dog”
“Carouselambra”
“All My Love”
“I’m Gonna Crawl”

Disc 2
“In the Evening (Rough Mix)”
“Southbound Piano (South Bound Saurez)”
“Fool in the Rain (Rough Mix)”
“Hot Dog (Rough Mix)”
“The Epic (Carouselambra – Rough Mix)”
“The Hook (All My Love – Rough Mix)”
“Blot (I’m Gonna Crawl – Rough Mix)”

Track listing for Coda
“We’re Gonna Groove”
“Poor Tom”
“I Can’t Quit You Baby”
“Walter s Walk”
“Ozone Baby”
“Darlene”
“Bonzo’s Montreux”
“Wearing and Tearing”

Disc 2
“We’re Gonna Groove (Alternate Mix)”
“If It Keeps On Raining (When the Levee Breaks – Rough Mix)”
“Bonzo’s Montreux (Mix Construction in Progress)”
“Baby Come on Home”
“Sugar Mama (Mix)”
“Poor Tom (Instrumental Mix)”
“Travelling Riverside Blues (BBC Session)”
“Hey, Hey, What Can I Do”

Disc 3
“Four Hands (Four Sticks – Bombay Orchestra)”
“Friends (Bombay Orchestra)”
“St. Tristan’s Sword (Rough Mix)”
“Desire (The Wanton Song – Rough Mix)”
“Bring It On Home (Rough Mix)”
“Walter’s Walk (Rough Mix)”
“Everybody Makes It Through (In the Light – Rough Mix)”

curious why stuff like Four Hands, Friends, etc. are on the Coda reissue and not on earlier reissue

I'm considering picking up the whole set of reissues (the multi-disc versions) once they're all out. I suppose it will depend on price. I have the old gray box, and that sounds great to me. But if I have the extra cash, and Amazon offers a good deal on all nine, I might go for it.

XP: Because how else would they get people to double+ dip on Coda?

Also: Is this 'BBC version' of "Travelling Riverside Blues" the same one that was a bait track on the original box set? Or is it something never before released that's orphaning that version?

Yeah, instead of reissuing Coda, they should've slotted those songs into the reissues for the appropriate albums (e.g., "Poor Tom" on LZIII). It's not like Coda as a standalone collection is canon.

yeah I get why they did it from a financial standpoint it's just weird to reissue Coda as an expanded dumping ground for random outtakes, it's just messy

Funny that Page went on and on about avoiding releasing anything that had already been bootlegged. Um...looks like that's no longer the case.

Loads of albums aren't "canon", but still get a reissue treatment... but yeah, it would have made far more sense to put all of the relevant studio outtakes as bonus tracks on the appropriate albums.

Page seems like a dude that does not realize that after all this time, he is no longer the best authority on things Led Zeppelin. "Wait until you hear this show you've never heard before! It'll ... what? You've heard it? Hmm, OK, get a load of these incredible outtakes from ... how did you know I was going to say that? You have them already? All of them!? Hmm. OK, how about this incredible batch of unreleased songs? Haven't heard them yet, have you? Well, that's because they do not exist, you suckers! Now shut up and buy the records again."

The band were together for 12 years (and touring most of the time) and they ceased recording over 35 years ago. I don't know what the fuck people are expecting, to be honest, some mythical lost album to just magically appear out of nowhere? That's the problem with these fucking "classic" acts like Led Zeppelin and The Beatles etc. It's as if people won't be content until the barrel has been scraped so hard that there's a gaping hole in the bottom of it. "There must be more! There must be more!" ... At some point, there is no more.

what do you mean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5p6z8QAVYU

"No more unreleased material in the archives, folks, but here's a vintage recording of John Lennon laying down a shit on his toilet at Tittenhurst Park circa 1971"

"*gasps* Oh my god, such genius! What a musical colon! BEST BAND EVAAAAAAA! MUSIC HAS NOT BEEN IMPROVED SINCE THE '70s!!!11!!"

Nothing I've read about 'Carnival of Light' suggests to me that it's anything more than The Beatles dicking around for a long time and that it's probably unreleased for a very good reason.

If they ever make the DVD of the Beatles singles videos, "Carnival of Light" should be the menu music. Anything else gives it undue prominence.

What are the odds on Page's next move being an 'Authorized Bootleg' series of live stuff?

Actually, LZ is pretty unusual for not having a bunch of interesting leftovers. Them and ... Pink Floyd? Bowie? But the Beatles archives stuff has often been illuminating. Likewise Dylan, Springsteen, the Beach Boys and a bunch others. Stones holding tight in terms of cool outtakes, but lots of other acts have done it. I'd buy an LZ set of just isolated Bonham beats.

Beatles have lots of unreleased rambling studio stuff because that's primarily how they worked in the later years. Without playing live the only way to get chops back was jamming it out in the studio.

Led Zeppelin were a touring act for their entirety. Plus two of the band members were studio pros, so yeah less prone to dicking around in studio.

I am in a constant state of amazement of how much unreleased junk has come out of the Beach Boys vaults over the years, the output is staggering

xp

Serious question: does anyone ever listen to outtakes for enjoyment in the same way as they would the main feature? Or is listening to that stuff just an intellectual exercise or to satisfy curiosity as to how certain bands worked together, the way they interacted with one another, the way they developed up the tracks that would eventually become the main feature, or a window into what the band considered to be "not good enough" to be properly released?

I only ask because I've got copies of The Beatles' Anthology discs, and I've heard the Get Back bootlegs and all of that kind of stuff, and while it's all very interesting for maybe one or two spins, you can see why a lot of it ended it up on the cutting room floor and wasn't deemed worthy for release. Some might say they're "historical documents", but don't the proper releases count as that and do it far more successfully? I must have felt the urge to listen to Abbey Road hundreds upon hundreds of times, but hardly ever have I thought "yeah, Anthology 3, that's my listening for the night sorted!"

I get the feeling that when it comes to certain "classic" artists, people won't be satisfied until every single last note of the archives is released in some way, which they'll probably listen to once or twice at the very most.

I listen to the beatles anthology stuff all the time, esp 2

I probably listen to the White Album demos more than most regular Beatles albums. I like to imagine it's their DIY K Records LP.

I listen to outtakes mainly for pleasure ( see Prince as Exhibit #1). The "Oh! I see what they changed there!" moments happen for me the first couple of plays. Afterwards I rarely think about that stuff.

I listen to outtakes, both as an exercise (hmm, where did this song come from?) and for pleasure, since there are often new things to hear/learn/enjoy. Prince, Springsteen ... so much cool stuff.

I get as much enjoyment out of Who, Miles, Coltrane, Hendrix, and some Beatles alternates/outtakes as I do from the master takes.

And speaking of the Who, few artists had an Odds & Sods in them, an outtakes compilation that stands up to (and in some cases betters) the regular output.

Honestly it depends upon the band and how they worked. For the Beach Boys, for instance, there's three CDs worth of the band recording backing tracks for "Good Vibrations". I can't listen to that and get aesthetic enjoyment out of it, though it's a fascinating document for understanding Brian's process in the studio. On the other side of things is stuff like "The Complete Funhouse Sessions", where the Stooges went in and laid down the songs live in the studio, complete with vocals, multiple times, and then just picked the ones they like best. Any one of those is really about as good as any other.

Those are both pretty extreme examples. But what it boils down to is that, at least in the primary era for bootlegging, studio outtakes would often wind up being unreleased for reasons other than artistic merit. The Beach Boys are, again, a prime example. They have a ton of completed songs that didn't make it out officially either because they were a thoroughly dysfunctional band (see: Dennis' songs for "Surf's Up"), or because the songs were profoundly out of touch with the commercial realities of the day (see: "My Solution").

Another example of the way process changes can affect the listenability of outtakes, even within the same band, is Talking Heads. I really enjoy listening to the outtakes from "Fear of Music", because Eno and Byrne tried a lot of different things with the songs. Fripp was originally brought in to play on three or four different songs on the record, but only wound up on the finished record on one song. There's a version of "Cities" that incorporates a loud "WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP" noise during parts of the song (referenced by Byrne on the live version from "The Name of This Band Is..."). They did a version of "Mind" with extreme treatments on the vocals. I wouldn't argue that any of these versions are, in artistic terms, _better_ than the finished product, but they're enjoyable to listen to on their own terms.

"Remain in Light", in contrast, I don't enjoy listening to the outtakes for at all. It seems to me that the recording process for that was less open-ended. After making "Fear of Music", Byrne and Eno were more sure of themselves and what they wanted to do. So while "Remain in Light" is a more experimental album, the recording process was, at least based on existing documentation, less experimental.

The tipping point for me is possibly Nebraska. Springsteen, a major artist, recorded acoustic demos of his songs for the band to play, and afterwards decided he liked the acoustic demos better and released them as the album. The success of the Basement Tapes probably made that possible, and honestly the Basement Tapes are, I think, still the best go-to argument for listening to outtakes (or songwriting demos) as songs, because the way they were recorded was completely out of touch with the way the market worked back then.

Well, maybe the Basement Tapes are even more anomalous. Because with scattered exceptions like "I Go to Sleep", rock musicians didn't do songwriting demos. The sixties were the apex of the songwriter-performer cult.

Anyway, I think having enjoyable, listenable unreleased outtakes is mostly an artifact of the way the industry worked, technologically and sociologically, during the rock era. Today the process of construction is less likely to produce aesthetically enjoyable rejects, and the standard for what is considered "releasable" is more inclusive.

Yeah, there are some "Nebraska"-era demos that are incredible, like the menacing "Pink Cadillac," a stark contrast to the radio version. Re: Talking Heads, "Remain in the Light" was constructed largely out of jams, even more so than the previous records, so I'm not sure there are real outtakes, per se. Just bits and pieces and fragments. Ever heard a band try to play "Once in a Lifetime" like the record? It's pretty much impossible, since it was constructed in the studio and the one keeps moving around.