King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

I just watched this Live in Japan video from 2003: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYE7XCVAiBQ&feature=youtu.be

Despite the fact that I'm not that familiar with much material from this era, I thought the show was mostly amazing. Fripp's Soundscapes are the connective tissue throughout – and contrary to what I remembered about this band, they actually all have a pretty great hold on technology. There's a nice piece with them all playing sampled percussion at one point. Belew does a few neat little vocoder bits. And Fripp plays a tearing digital piano solo but in the encore that sounds like an alien Keith Tippett (or Jarrett even) has descended from 1970. Yes, Belew continues to be a so-so frontman but his guitar work throughout is on another level (5).

Interestingly given that Crimson seemed so painfully self-referential around this time, they only play a single track that dates from earlier than The ConstruKction of Light –
and that's from Thrak.

The Projekcts that I've heard are hit or miss, readily identifiable as the sum total of their contributors but pretty shy of KC proper, iirc. On one of them (that I also saw performed live), Belew plays V-drums exclusively, and Fripp is processing his guitar into sort of half-assed xylophone. Others are more aggressive, but I honestly can't remember the various sounds and combinations of the different line-ups.

Would you get the ProjeKcts box or Heavy ConstruKction if pressed?

i listen to heavy construkction more than anything on the projekcts box. the improvs are better and more fully-formed, and the written material renders the studio release of that material redundant.

I'm not a fan of Gunn's playing, tbh. Though I do like his playing on the Sylvian/Fripp record, but he sticks to Stick on that. Maybe I just don't like the Warr Guitar he uses?

There's no real sonic difference between the instruments. He's kind of a stiff.

I find that when he plays the Warr he plays it more like a guitar, fuzzed out. And it's got more strings, woo!

i listen to heavy construkction more than anything on the projekcts box. the improvs are better and more fully-formed, and the written material renders the studio release of that material redundant.

this is definitely my go-to for that era of Crimson - so much better than the studio album. and yeah those improvs rule, they're about as good as the '73 ones in my book.

Yeah, it was definitely a selling point on the Warr that pick-ups were more amenable to overdrive. But Gunn would be boring on the bagpipes.

How about processing his Warr Guitar to sound like bagpipes?

But yeah, he's a snooze. Tony is the best.

this is definitely my go-to for that era of Crimson - so much better than the studio album. and yeah those improvs rule, they're about as good as the '73 ones in my book.

― frogbs

honestly i think "beautiful rainbow" could probably take "trio" in a one-on-one fight

Ok, mega-answer forthcoming...

the improvs are better and more fully-formed

I've really liked the improvs I've heard from HC – München (which I heard on the Sometimes God Dies comp) is really terrific. One of the things I like most about them is Pat's approach to electronic percussion – which I find more subtle and detailed than Bruford's (who I like but always thought his Simmons kit sounded pretty stiff).

That said, I don't think the ProjeKcts stuff I've heard thus far is comparatively second rate. I actually found the Space Groove ProjeKct Two disc on Amazon for $2 so kinda had to grab it. What I've heard probably sounds the least like King Crimson proper of any of the ProjeKcts but they def. were doing their "research" into new sounds and electronic percussion on this one. Plus, this version of "Heavy ConstruKction" by that band live is pretty smoking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E58rmDHr8w&feature=share

the written material renders the studio release of that material redundant.

You know, the same is often said about the Absent Lovers boot which is a great show but not, at least for me, a replacement for the studio versions of the 80s albums which are really well produced (the first two by Rhett Davies of Avalon fame).

this is definitely my go-to for that era of Crimson - so much better than the studio album.

and yeah those improvs rule, they're about as good as the '73 ones in my book.

Perhaps I'm less particular about my Crimson improvs. But I sort of enjoy when this band and their various members and iterations are searching, or even stumbling, around on stage – it's one of the things that's defined their improvisational style since "Moonchild." Not everything soars above the clouds. Sometimes it doesn't really catch fire. But it's rarely by the numbers. And the different lineups of the ProjeKcts, including putting Belew behind the drums (and hence, keeping him away from the microphone), keeps things pretty fresh.

honestly i think "beautiful rainbow" could probably take "trio" in a one-on-one fight

Anyway, appreciate the FB. I still kinda want both!

I just heard the Toronto set, big thumbs up to that one

Reading some reviews it seems like people are disappointed they aren't doing anything new ("Meltdown" is a new song though, right? Or is it from someone's other project?) - understandable I guess, though any disappointment is tempered by the fact that A) most of this material hasn't been performed in four decades and B) these guys can fucking play, especially Mel Collins who somehow seems BETTER now than he was in '71, figure that out. Still not convinced by some aspects (why do you need three drummers? and was Jakko really the best singer available?) but (IMO) Crimso just sounds right with flutes, 'trons, and the sax - this to me feels like the "final form" of the band in some ways. Anyway, if you don't have it, grab it, you won't be disappointed.

Sorry for pretty much repeating my post above, but I gave Islands a listen this morning and was surprised to find that it's actually dead good and not half as bad as general consensus makes out.

Screw that, Islands is awesome. My wife commented on a car trip one time how gorgeous the title track was – when a woman says that about a King Crimson track, you just drop the mic and walk away.

Islands-era band doesn't get enough love imo, if you haven't heard any live boots from that time you absolutely must, their take on "Schizoid Man" is just...nasty! Probably my favorite take on that song come to think of it

I've got a copy of Earthbound I haven't listened to with Schizoid on it?

Earthbound is the only album that hasn't been reissued as part of the 40th Anniversary series. I have everything from Court through USA in that series - the CD/DVD sets in slipcase digipaks - and don't really want to buy the 30th Anniversary Edition of Earthbound, from 2006, because it won't match. Plus, I've heard it's pretty terrible, since the original recordings were made on cassette?

Yeah Earthbound doesn't sound so hot (iirc Fripp was not happy at all about that release) but Live at the Marquee, released sometime later as part of Fripp's Collectors Club thing sounds pretty dang good

Live at the Marquee (1971) I should say, apparently they played the Marquee several times, and why not? Might as well.

the collector's club releases of that band live are much better, don't bother with earthbound unless you're trying to be a completist, it sounds terrible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob6MXXTMaoc

Also the only line-up to tackle "Cirkus" live, though I guess the latest band played it not long ago? Haven't heard it but I'll take Boz over Jakko all day

some of you guys probably know this -- also it may have been reprinted elsewhere -- but fripp had a monthly column in the wire in the mid-80s

also: still LOLing at sinfield's description of greg lake, probably my least-favourite singer in rock (even including belew)

Okay, here's a stretch of a question: did any of you out there catch VH-1's "100 Greatest Artists of Hard Rock"? Whell, amidst those 100, they featured a quick segment on Crimson, and showed some live footage of the band, although I'm not sure from which era. The line-up featured Wetton on vocals, doing almost a scat-styled lyric. It was very free- form sounding, but still quite cool. Being that their catalogue is a bit on the vast side (and I'm only really familiar with COURT OF...and the DISCIPLINE and beyond periods), can anyone tell me where that particular track can be found?
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, February 14, 2002 5:00 PM (fourteen years ago)

hope Alex hasn't been waiting anxiously for fourteen years, that particular track is "Easy Money"

this quick segment on VH1 was actually my first exposure to KC, I was 16 years old at the time, and immediately went out afterwards to the record shop to pick up a copy of Sleepless: The Consise King Crimson. which is indeed consise and a little bit (though understandably) heavy on 80s material, but a pretty good introduction anyway. thanks Carmen Electra! and VH1! music first!

yeah, I figured it out fairly soon after. Cheers, though.

I reviewed the new 3CD live thing. It's good, at least in part because it totally ignores the '80s albums. (Fuck Adrian Belew forever.)

nice review. I'll definitely be picking this up - I liked the Toronto set a lot but I've heard this is even better, plus it's even got some Lizard material on it. I like the idea of not having the audience noise - lots of KC live albums tend to leave in a lot of applause which often irritates me

(Fuck Adrian Belew forever.)

so wrong

exactly. belew's tenure during the 80's albums made the band very special, IMO, and those records contain most of the best work he ever did as a songwriter. I'm not hot on the post-thrak work but not really because of him; his songs were always pretty good (eyes wide open, for example). this crimson revival is a venture into other things, makes sense to not have him there and I'm glad they're not attempting his songs.

Actually, isn't it sort of explicitly *not* a venture into other things? It's older, more unexplored material, with a slightly but not radically different band (custom built to explore said older stuff). Just as Belew rarely (if ever?) sang anything from before his time, this version of the band is not performing anything from Belew's time. Anyway, they were great when I saw them last year or whenever, but I would love to see this group let loose to just improvise. Heck, I'd probably pay just to see Gavin and Pat hit things.

Belew did "Schizoid Man" a few times, I'm pretty sure. Other than that they only dipped back to the instrumentals. I like Belew a lot and I think he's responsible for most of the good stuff Crimson did post 1974 but yeah I'm glad he's not on here

as far as whether or not this is truly a "venture into other things" I guess that's up to you, but IMO it sorta is because Crimson never became a nostalgia act like every other classic prog band - outside of the occasional "Schizoid Man" or "Red" they never exactly "played the hits". even the THRAK unit that didn't have a lot of material played much more 80's stuff than 70's.

he did schizoid man a million times

I don't think I've heard any of the new material, unless some of it's from Scarcity of Miracles. Is it any good?

I can remember Belew saying he was always trying to get Fripp to play more of the older stuff live, with little success. I like that they're giving his era a break, but...just from a performance standpoint, surely even the most fervent Belew haters rate him above Jakko, right?

belew KC only did schizoid man on one tour, AFAIR

there isn't any 'new' material except for some songs from Scarcity (which are better here) and some instrumental pieces

I never saw the Belew-era KC but I saw the Jakko line-up last year and I thought he was great. He wasn't the singer and guitarist in 21st Century Schizoid Band for nothing.

Belew reminds me a bit of Buckingham in Fleetwood Mac, a talented singer/guitarist/songwriter who joins a band known for its changing line-ups, who sort of radically codifies things into a stable vision with which he and it is henceforth identified. When Buckingham joined FM the first tour or so he played a few older FM tracks that preceded his involvement, too, but that faded quickly and soon stopped entirely. I don't think Belew ever sang any old Crimson beyond "Schizoid," and I don't think he ever sang that for more than a tour or so.

interestingly, belew recorded "cadence and cascade" over gordon haskell's original version for the 1991 king crimson box set. they never did it live, of course.

I used to mostly listen to '80s Crimson, but nowadays I'm finding it's 1972-1975 Crimson that I tend to want to listen to the most. At this stage I've basically narrowed the discography down to In The Court of the Crimson King, Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Red and Discipline. I'm not too fussed about the rest nowadays.

my first two crimson records were the one with "cat food" on it and _starless and bible black_. i'm still a big fan of the long closing instrumentals on both of them.

My first one was 'In The Wake of Poseidon' too, so the old 'It's just In The Court Pt.II' criticism is kind of reversed for me - I prefer it to ITCOTKC. The next one I got was 'Beat' in a second hand shop. Imagine what 17 year old me would have made of that after hearing Poseidon.

I was thinking, no one talks about Beat do they? It feels like the runt next to Discipline and Three Of A Perfect Pair. Anyone got anything nice or interesting to say about it?

"Meltdown" is a new song isn't it? Or is it from someone's solo album?

I'm not 100% sold on Jakko but I will say he handles the breadth of material he covers quite well.

meltdown is new, that's right

What I like about Jakko is that he seems like more than just some happy to be here reality show/lottery winner, a la the guy from Journey, guy from INXS, guy from Judas Priest, guys from Yes, etc.. He seems peer-like, and even as far as "tributes" go, 21st Century Schizoid Band was otherwise all actual Crimson vets.

Well he is almost 60 and has a bit of tenure. This isn't like a Jon Davison type thing.

His RYM page is interesting:

Member of
Level 42, 64 Spoons, Rapid Eye Movement, The Kings of Oblivion, The Lodge, 21st Century Schizoid Band, Dizrhythmia, The Tangent, King Crimson

Also Known As
Grand Master Jelly Tot, Jakko, Michael Lee Curran [birth name], Jakko Jakszyk, Mario "Fat Man" Vanzetti

The lodge, that was a weird Henry Cow offshoot led by the bassist John Greaves iirc

He was also in the Kinks for ten days, replacing Dave Davies.

True story. After seeing KC in Paris last year I went for a drink on my own in a bar not far from the venue. Walked in there and who should I see but Jakko, Mel Collins and a few of their friends and family. Ended up chatting away to them until the small hours. Lovely guys.

Huh. Surprised to hear you did not have an ... odd time.

Odd, like 9/8?

Not sure if I could listen to "Cat Food" or Lizard with the same ears I had long ago, because I've heard way too much jazz and probably I'm gonna go for Beefheart or Mingus or Mal Waldron before I get down with the early Crimson. Islands has "Ladies of the Road," which I love, and I do have a lotta respect for Starless and Bible Black and Red and that live album from around then. In retrospect I think the improvs on Starless really mean something and maybe I could also get into some of Larks' Tongues. The Belew stuff not so much, once again Beefheart or James Blood or whoever satisfies me far more, rhythmically, than the rather static stuff on those records. Anti-swing is OK but I don't feel it so much any more. Finally saw 'em a few years ago in Nashville, had a good time, Fripp played some great shit. So maybe I'll put on Wake of Poseidon and see how it sounds now.