King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

True story. After seeing KC in Paris last year I went for a drink on my own in a bar not far from the venue. Walked in there and who should I see but Jakko, Mel Collins and a few of their friends and family. Ended up chatting away to them until the small hours. Lovely guys.

Huh. Surprised to hear you did not have an ... odd time.

Odd, like 9/8?

Not sure if I could listen to "Cat Food" or Lizard with the same ears I had long ago, because I've heard way too much jazz and probably I'm gonna go for Beefheart or Mingus or Mal Waldron before I get down with the early Crimson. Islands has "Ladies of the Road," which I love, and I do have a lotta respect for Starless and Bible Black and Red and that live album from around then. In retrospect I think the improvs on Starless really mean something and maybe I could also get into some of Larks' Tongues. The Belew stuff not so much, once again Beefheart or James Blood or whoever satisfies me far more, rhythmically, than the rather static stuff on those records. Anti-swing is OK but I don't feel it so much any more. Finally saw 'em a few years ago in Nashville, had a good time, Fripp played some great shit. So maybe I'll put on Wake of Poseidon and see how it sounds now.

kinda feel that EH -- King Crimson were more god-like to me before I got into way out noise-rock, avant-prog, jazz, metal, modern classical, etc. It's not that I still don't think "Red" has great riffs and rocks like crazy... but a lot of other stuff does too, and frankly, their improvs actually detract from the overall experience for me. The 70s group in particular always seemed like such unwilling improvising partners, and when stuff worked, to believe Fripp's accounts of the period, the band was almost as surprised as the audience. Compare to, say, Henry Cow, where improvisation was approached in a much more open/anything-goes manner, and importantly, more an integral part of the band's identity. IMO of course!

These days, I am more apt to listen to a metal band influenced by KC than KC itself (tho I am curious about new material).

Yeah, Dominique, Henry Cow were referencing bebop and had a lighter touch, and Beefheart's Decals just has more spark than the Euro-textures of Fripp's 1970 band. I like Fri but tend to look elsewhere for guitar playing that has more...something. Fullness. But Red is pretty great, that and Starless are the best KC albums. OTM about "unwilling partners," too, though the Wetton-Bruford backbeat has its charms. I'm gonna listen to Ronald Shannon Jackson before I delve into the Belew Crimson, for sure, and I don't think Belew was that great of a songwriter, either, which may be heretical...

Jakko's album "bruised romantic glee club' is really good, plus it has a bonus cd of classic prog covers and a great supporting band. I like him. He has ridiculous hair.

So there are actually several 'new' KC songs on this:

Meltdown
Suitable Grounds for the Blues
Radical Action to Sunseat Monkey Mind/Radical Action ii
Hell Hounds of Krim
Interlude
Banshee Legs Bell Hassle
Devil Dogs of Tessellation Row

and
Scarcity of Miracles
Light of Day (which were both on the Scarcity of Miracles album, but are better here)

So that's almost a full album's worth of new material. The instrumentals are interesting, the 2 brand new vocal songs (Meltdown and Suitable Grounds) are...alright, but nothing to crow about.

It was an interesting decision to strip this live album of audience noise; but it really sounds like little about the performances themselves were touched up. So, the performances are very 'live' sounding but it's missing the live atmosphere.

edd: i'm the reverse of you on cat food/lizard- i like it more the more jazz i hear because keith tippett has serious jazz skills (as do plenty of the other folks on "lizard").

jakko is a guy i can respect and he's been around for quite a long time but unlike belew has never done a record i've ever wanted to listen to.

the consensus around _beat_ seems to be that it's where crimson ran out of ideas once and for all. can't much disagree. i remember back in the early '90s king crimson somehow kept getting back to "heartbeat" as a second-rate love ballad was anything anybody wanted to hear from them which may have colored my opinions. but aside from "waiting man" which is a good jam there just isn't much on the album worth talking about.

I think I agree about Beat, but Three of a Perfect Pair has some really cool stuff on it.

side b of three of a perfect pair has some _cool_ stuff on it but their attempts at industrial music are ultimately pretty flat compared to their attempts at sounding like talking heads (not terribly surprising given the circumstances). i can listen to it but it ultimately sounds derivative to my ears.

yeah Side A of 3oaPP is pretty good, never liked Side B all that much

the Absent Lovers live set rules above everything as far as the 80's era is concerned

Was listening to the new live set and chuckled when the flute started doing Mancini's "Baby Elephant Walk."

i really like Beat but it was maybe the first KC album I ever owned, and I was really into the beats at the time, so I liked the kerouac/burroughs/bowles references

also all of three of a perfect pair is great, don't know what you all are whining about. i mean if you want to hear KC run out of ideas, go listen to construkction of light

hah I just realized that Jakko was in The Tangent, that's pretty cool

What's all this "Fuck Adrian Belew Forever" stuff?

Not sure how I was unaware of this album until now, but David Cross and Robert Fripp released an album based entirely around the Starless riff in 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsAZlQAf3pA

This sounds good. Cross does most of the work here but it flows together well.

Any thoughts on "Radical Action" y'all? I've been really enjoying it - surprised by how great Fripp & Collins still are, and I think they really do justice to their back catalogue. In a way this feels like the "final form" of King Crimson - they've got the heaviness, the horns, the mellotron, and even a percussionist, even sample the old records but re-arrange the tunes to make them sound new enough. I like Jakko on this too, he's like an amalgam of all the singers of Crimson past. New songs are good but not great, picking up right where '00s Crim left off I guess. Sound quality is incredible, and cutting out the crowd was (IMO) a good move. The three drummer thing seems a little underutilized and I wish they'd pulled out some less obvious tunes (lets be real here, do we really need another recording of "Red" or "Larks 2"?)...something from Lizard would've been awesome, "Cat Food" or "Lament" perhaps, and can Fripp not do "Fracture" anymore? But overall I'm really glad I picked it up.

Ha, I think I threw a vote to the Cross/Fripp in last year's ILM poll.

yeah I've listened to it a lot as I kept it in my car for months. they have been doing some stuff from Lizard live lately (as well as Indiscipline, surprisingly) which keeps this from feeling like the absolute final word. The performances are exceptionally professional; if you go back and listen to this band vs say, the 70's band playing Red, it's lost a bit of the wild freeform feel; having seen them live I can confirm that they really do play things this well; so it feels a bit more like a classical recital of crimson stuff than earlier incarnations. The video is annoyingly edited but gives a realistic enough view on what these shows are like.

Any thoughts on "Radical Action" y'all?

I wrote about it for Burning Ambulance.

Any thoughts on "Radical Action" y'all? I've been really enjoying it - surprised by how great Fripp & Collins still are, and I think they really do justice to their back catalogue. In a way this feels like the "final form" of King Crimson - they've got the heaviness, the horns, the mellotron, and even a percussionist, even sample the old records but re-arrange the tunes to make them sound new enough. I like Jakko on this too, he's like an amalgam of all the singers of Crimson past. New songs are good but not great, picking up right where '00s Crim left off I guess. Sound quality is incredible, and cutting out the crowd was (IMO) a good move. The three drummer thing seems a little underutilized and I wish they'd pulled out some less obvious tunes (lets be real here, do we really need another recording of "Red" or "Larks 2"?)...something from Lizard would've been awesome, "Cat Food" or "Lament" perhaps, and can Fripp not do "Fracture" anymore? But overall I'm really glad I picked it up.

― frogbs

recent gigs have addressed at least a couple of your setlist concerns, fwiw.

i'm not sure what to say about it, because i actually saw a show on the tour, my first time seeing king crimson, and mostly i find that i don't enjoy the record as much as i enjoyed the show. people generally seem to be really taken with the record, though.

they have been doing some stuff from Lizard live lately (as well as Indiscipline, surprisingly)

"Indiscipline" is a neat addition; as it is these sets kinda feel like they're (unintentionally) writing Belew out of the band's history

No matter how much Fripp would deny it, I can't help thinking there's a feeling of nostalgia, of revisiting past glories about these shows, what with there being so little new material. Not that I'm complaining, these shows are stellar.

The Power To Believe is terrible

I dunno I kinda liked that album - didn't think much of the actual songs but the instrumentals were good. Definitely a sense that they've run out of ideas but there's been that feeling since 1995. Hopefully they'll crank out some new material soon; I do think that "Radical Action" -> "Meltdown" is pretty great, but sold on the other two songs yet but the fact that they're writing new songs at all is kind of a good sign. Given their extensive tour they have booked for 2017 I'm guessing they're still working some things out.

Hitting the west coast starting in Seattle in June, psyched to see them again.

I haven't got The Power To Believe but "Dangerous Curves" is fantastic.

the power to believe is pretty good, it's better than the construction of light anyway

yeah that was definitely their "these dudes should break up" album; nearly the entire thing was retreading their old ideas with a much shittier drum sound. though the new take on "Fracture" was really good. Belew's lyrics got terrible in a hurry too.

oddly enough the 2000 live set Heavy ConstruKction is one of my favorites - all the new material sounds better live (without the distortion and studio effects), and the improvs are really good

they got into some kind of grateful dead thing where their studio records sucked but they burned live

Rieflin is back according to latest Fripp diary, and they're keeping Jeremy Stacy so this will be an 8 member band going out in the summer (west coast!)

Four drummers, jeez.

that's strange, though I suppose Rieflin will probably be doing more keyboards full-time? what the hell are you going to do with four drummers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-5XCJNdTE

77 Crimdrum

... what the hell are you going to do with three four drummers?

Lots of bands have >2 percussionists! Not rock bands usually but it's not completely absurd

Rieflin is back according to latest Fripp diary, and they're keeping Jeremy Stacy so this will be an 8 member band going out in the summer (west coast!)

― akm

i knew moving to the west coast was a good idea

personally i hope they start adding "thousand finger man" to the setlist

xp the fact that the majority of the setlist was written for one drummer does make it pretty interesting though. also both Rieflin and Stacy are multi-instrumentalists so there's a lot of potential there. Fripp is now talking about a "dual quartet" which is kinda awesome sounding.

Very intriguing. I thought the three drummer lineup was a bit overkill and that bill rieflin really didn't add that much. Four drummers, I can imagine a dueling band thing going on. They should let rieflin sing, he has a voice like David Sylvian.

xp the fact that the majority of the setlist was written for one drummer does make it pretty interesting though. also both Rieflin and Stacy are multi-instrumentalists so there's a lot of potential there. Fripp is now talking about a "dual quartet" which is kinda awesome sounding.

― frogbs

oh give it up bobby you're not going to re-record fucking "free jazz"

I sure would like them to start doing improvs again

They do improv, but mostly between song stuff. In fact, as talented as KC is and has always been, their improvisation has always been secondary, imo. That is, there are changes here and there, but having listening to several shows in, say, that Road to Red set, I've not noticed any huge shift from take to take. Fripp is such a control freak that he (and his compositions) keeps his band on a pretty tight leash. The ProjeKCs seemed to improvise a lot more.

I mean the jams that they end up calling improvs

the interstitial stuff, like intros to Night Watch, Exiles, etc, never really counted as such IMO

I liked what they did with the pieces they built around 'Siezure' & 'x-chayng-z' or whatever - that stuff ended up feeling very exciting. I'd enjoy seeing this group approach that sort of thing.

When I saw them in 2004 they were basically a very loud chamber ensemble, precise, no improv. I think that can make it hard for music to enter the room, as Fripp puts it.

I always wondered about that. Some of the "improvs" on The Great Deceiver and Heavy ConstruKction sets seem so structured that there's no way they just pulled them out of thin air. I can see something like "Trio" coming together since there isn't a whole lot of a tune there, but some of the rest, you at least get the sense they knew where it was starting or what it was leading to. Would be cool to see more jamming out of this incarnation of the band, I actually think the "Easy Money" on Radical Action is the best version I've ever heard, mostly because of the freeform middle section.