King Crimson: Classic Or Dud

yeah that was definitely their "these dudes should break up" album; nearly the entire thing was retreading their old ideas with a much shittier drum sound. though the new take on "Fracture" was really good. Belew's lyrics got terrible in a hurry too.

oddly enough the 2000 live set Heavy ConstruKction is one of my favorites - all the new material sounds better live (without the distortion and studio effects), and the improvs are really good

they got into some kind of grateful dead thing where their studio records sucked but they burned live

Rieflin is back according to latest Fripp diary, and they're keeping Jeremy Stacy so this will be an 8 member band going out in the summer (west coast!)

Four drummers, jeez.

that's strange, though I suppose Rieflin will probably be doing more keyboards full-time? what the hell are you going to do with four drummers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-5XCJNdTE

77 Crimdrum

... what the hell are you going to do with three four drummers?

Lots of bands have >2 percussionists! Not rock bands usually but it's not completely absurd

Rieflin is back according to latest Fripp diary, and they're keeping Jeremy Stacy so this will be an 8 member band going out in the summer (west coast!)

― akm

i knew moving to the west coast was a good idea

personally i hope they start adding "thousand finger man" to the setlist

xp the fact that the majority of the setlist was written for one drummer does make it pretty interesting though. also both Rieflin and Stacy are multi-instrumentalists so there's a lot of potential there. Fripp is now talking about a "dual quartet" which is kinda awesome sounding.

Very intriguing. I thought the three drummer lineup was a bit overkill and that bill rieflin really didn't add that much. Four drummers, I can imagine a dueling band thing going on. They should let rieflin sing, he has a voice like David Sylvian.

xp the fact that the majority of the setlist was written for one drummer does make it pretty interesting though. also both Rieflin and Stacy are multi-instrumentalists so there's a lot of potential there. Fripp is now talking about a "dual quartet" which is kinda awesome sounding.

― frogbs

oh give it up bobby you're not going to re-record fucking "free jazz"

I sure would like them to start doing improvs again

They do improv, but mostly between song stuff. In fact, as talented as KC is and has always been, their improvisation has always been secondary, imo. That is, there are changes here and there, but having listening to several shows in, say, that Road to Red set, I've not noticed any huge shift from take to take. Fripp is such a control freak that he (and his compositions) keeps his band on a pretty tight leash. The ProjeKCs seemed to improvise a lot more.

I mean the jams that they end up calling improvs

the interstitial stuff, like intros to Night Watch, Exiles, etc, never really counted as such IMO

I liked what they did with the pieces they built around 'Siezure' & 'x-chayng-z' or whatever - that stuff ended up feeling very exciting. I'd enjoy seeing this group approach that sort of thing.

When I saw them in 2004 they were basically a very loud chamber ensemble, precise, no improv. I think that can make it hard for music to enter the room, as Fripp puts it.

I always wondered about that. Some of the "improvs" on The Great Deceiver and Heavy ConstruKction sets seem so structured that there's no way they just pulled them out of thin air. I can see something like "Trio" coming together since there isn't a whole lot of a tune there, but some of the rest, you at least get the sense they knew where it was starting or what it was leading to. Would be cool to see more jamming out of this incarnation of the band, I actually think the "Easy Money" on Radical Action is the best version I've ever heard, mostly because of the freeform middle section.

that was what i loved most about the construction of light tour - they started doing standalone "blows" again, which give or take a couple of late '81/early '82 oddities, they hadn't really done since '74. the whole "thrakattak" approach they took, man, it just didn't work, because the music had no space to breathe.

how structured were the '73-'74 "blows"? yeah, some. funny that you mention trio, frogbs, as that was a kind of regular thing they did- no main melody, mind, but there are a lot of improvs by that band that sound like "trio". certainly they had some set pieces- the "fracture" melody started out in improv pieces, and that's not really the sort of thing one just makes up on the spot- but overall they were freer than one might imagine.

oh god, Thrakattak - don't think I could stand to listen to that one again. as I recall it the issue wasn't that you had 6 members of the band improvising all at once, but rather that most of the members seemed too afraid to do anything! yes, that is what pure improvisation can sound like.

I always thought "Fracture" was a take off on "Suite No 1" from the Giles, Giles, and Fripp days. obviously Fripp's technique improved a lot over the years but when I first heard that it sounded like there was a connection there.

oh god, Thrakattak - don't think I could stand to listen to that one again. as I recall it the issue wasn't that you had 6 members of the band improvising all at once, but rather that most of the members seemed too afraid to do anything! yes, that is what pure improvisation can sound like.

I always thought "Fracture" was a take off on "Suite No 1" from the Giles, Giles, and Fripp days. obviously Fripp's technique improved a lot over the years but when I first heard that it sounded like there was a connection there.

― frogbs

"suite no. 1" sounds like a cut-rate "flight of the bumblebee" to me. "fracture" not so much.

the issue with thrakattak, i would say, as that they just edited together thirty separate recordings of the middle two minutes of a six minute song. that's just not going to sound good.

if i may, goddamn I love this band and anytime this thread revives it makes me happy

hmmm rushomancy I think you're right. but "Fracture" sounds a little like that to my ears too.

for the record I thought the "Schizoid Men" disc on Ladies of the Road worked alright - or at least would have had the sound quality been somewhat passable.

Schizoid Men disc is good fun.

it's nice enough but at a certain point i start feeling like i'm listening to free bird.

This thread and the news that Rieflin is back with them as they head back to the States has me breaking out Heavy ConstruKction and the ProjeKct box again. They're both such a nice contrast to the new band – woolly abstract (abstraKct) futurism vs. suits and ties woodwind classiness.

how structured were the '73-'74 "blows"? yeah, some. funny that you mention trio, frogbs, as that was a kind of regular thing they did- no main melody, mind, but there are a lot of improvs by that band that sound like "trio".

There is at least one "improv" on the Starless box that is not Copenhagen (possibly Italy) in which they play "Trio" almost note for note. Frankly, given the Bruford story and its rep for being completely improvised, I was a little stunned.

it's nice enough but at a certain point i start feeling like i'm listening to free bird.

Ironically, for a jammy band, Skynyrd jams were super tight and composed. Three guitars, lotta soloing, gotta do some planning.

okay, allmans then?

There is at least one "improv" on the /Starless/ box that is not Copenhagen (possibly Italy) in which they play "Trio" almost note for note. Frankly, given the Bruford story and its rep for being completely improvised, I was a little stunned.

Ok, it's actually Mainz in March of 1974 (and of course I meant Amsterdam not Copenhagen from the previous November). So it appears they were trying to recreate "Trio" after it was improvised? Or did it appear before the 1973 Concertgebouw show as well?

btw does anyone have the slow music project 'live at the croc' cd ripped (or any of/all of the digital live releases)?

as it is these sets kinda feel like they're (unintentionally) writing Belew out of the band's history

― frogbs, Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:09 AM (two weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as a big Discipline / Beat / ToaPP fan, I've noticed this too. But if I were Belew I'd take the omission of this period as a compliment. Jakko may be very good at "doing" Wetton, but it'd be pretty tough to tackle Belew's singular approach to either guitar or vocals imo. Like him or not, guy is one of a kind

Wanna buy this set but the stuff I have up on eBay right now isn't selling so, err, can't justify it. Coveting it, though.

Also Belew's period in King Crimson was both insanely long and well documented -- the old Crimson songs being revisited are pieces Fripp actively avoided performing because of nasty litigation which he eventually won.

Do you have a source for that last claim? I wasn't aware that litigation could be a bar to live performances of songs.

See also, John Fogerty refusing to play CCR during the copyright lawsuit.

I'm not sure I've ever made it all the way through the Radical Action set, but yesterday I listen to its version of Schizoid Man and really hated it.

Was it mentioned above that the four drummer formation is allegedly touring the us this year?

It wasn't a legal bar -- Fripp was boycotting his own stuff because he didn't want Sinfield or the publishers to get paid. Look at any interview with him from the 90s or 00s, really.

Interesting, I didn't know that. But does that mean that Sinfield and the publishers would have been paid every time Fripp performed one of the old songs? Or is it that live performances of them would stimulate album sales?

Considering he's re-released the entire catalogue several times I don't think it's the latter. The former doesn't really make sense either - do publishers really get royalties from live performances during a tour? Thought it was more Fripp's "always look forward" attitude, plus Belew wasn't so good at imitating the old singers

As I said, check the interviews. The Fripp-approved reissues started when the cases started settling (there were plenty of reissues with no Fripp involvement), and I think Fripp and Sinfield worked out their stuff in the 90s.

Maybe it's aging related chemical changes in the brain, but I used to like KC and now I find them kind of awful.

i don't know, that's odd. typically I've found it's the other way. In fact, I've grown to appreciate KC albums I didn't like initially (Islands, Lizard); although i have also grown to dislike some of the later ones even more than I originally did (construction, power to believe)

"Was it mentioned above that the four drummer formation is allegedly touring the us this year?"

it's actually still just 3 drummers, Rieflin is playing keyboards and sounds

Yeah, I totally got more into KC with age.

I originally only liked the '72-74 lineup(s); now I like everything until that point. The Belew-era stuff and everything after can still fuck off, though.

i don't get people's reluctance to like the 80's albums. those are, all three, awesome records.

I love that period! I might play those as often as any of the others.

The Discipline era of KC does have a very different sound than the earlier incarnation. Few weeks back I put together a playlist couple of those records up with some Talking Heads, early 80s Bowie, Roxy Music, Iggy and The Police and it all fit together really well in that context.