Classic examples of Anglo-American pop culture’s smugly self-perpetuating hegemony ITT. All I’ll say is: there are other worlds, you don’t need to settle for a mere handful of sounds and structures.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:34 (five years ago) link
go and start I Love Gamelan then
;)
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:37 (five years ago) link
Implying it’s not music. Tsk, tsk.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:38 (five years ago) link
it's like a whole culture, man. like a sort of theatre that we don't have an equivalent word for. don't they have such crazy drums? like whoa
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:40 (five years ago) link
Yes a message board with a 1000-post afrobeats thread is totally closed off to outside sounds.
― Matt DC, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:41 (five years ago) link
being serious for a moment, the pop hegemony doesn't mind appropriating from the other traditions now and then - and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, when done respectfully - but it does have a tendency to water a few aspects down, does it not
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:42 (five years ago) link
Afrobeats is a special case of outernational investment because it's a) self-identifyingly Pop and b) gained significant traction in the US and UK *as* Pop - it is a realised synthesis of pop tropes and indigenous art, so of course it's both catchy and interesting. imo that Serge Beynaud song that made the traxpoll is more or less the best thing that's happened in the history of the traxpoll, kiu ye fond dilettantes
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:46 (five years ago) link
Trying to skim through some of those Tom Ewing pieces, and despite all the people who might say "you don't understand", I get the sense that he was addressing himself to music critics primarily, thinking very hard at how their attitudes might change / were changing, how possibly a defunct way of thinking about pop-the-great-Nemesis might resolve itself. It's like he has to explain it, be the "bad conscience" of his era. It's admirable and he gets to analyze a lot of things. But that certainly separates the poptimist from the pop listener.I was young when rockism was still in full action online, and then when others "fought" it, and now we're "beyond" and all this influenced me, so I probably have my own understanding of how all of that articulates, and it might not exactly align with Ewing or the "correct" way of thinking about poptimism (still a niche term tbh), plus the fact I'm from continental Europe so possibly "outside" the debate... anyway.
― Nabozo, Monday, 10 December 2018 09:54 (five years ago) link
I've never argued that ILM as a whole is closed to outside sounds. I wouldn't be here if that were the case. What I do notice, however, is that the most vocal poptimists are almost systematically uninterested in anything that falls outside of their purview (short, accessible, earwormy songs, preferably conducive to a political analysis), barring a woke signifier or two. There's nothing wrong with that per se – but to argue that poptimism hasn't become a hegemonic (albeit less harmful) discourse like rockism (which was popist to begin with, just with more guitars) over the past decade or so is galling from the perspective of marginalized genres.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:00 (five years ago) link
Like Nabozo said, I too was quite young when rockism was the norm online, so there may be a generational component to this misunderstanding. I get the sense that older ILMers focus more on its causes whereas younger ones are more interested in its effects.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:02 (five years ago) link
tbh maybe they just like pop. the battle might not be pop vs art music (so many grey areas anyway) so much as a neurological one - omnivorous self-romanticising autistic monsters (hai) vs...well...normies people with more refined and well-adjusted tastes
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:07 (five years ago) link
"that's some incel bullshit!" yeah probably is I'm sorry
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:08 (five years ago) link
I tend to think that too (not quite in those terms, though), but it just seems so self-defeating. It cements the status quo (which takes us back to the politics of it).
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:11 (five years ago) link
the neurologics of music listening are fascinating to me and I think we shouldn't be afraid to discuss them
that said it's amazing what can be done for someone's hitherto-conservative music taste with a bit of exposure. "oh wow how had I not heard this before?!" it's because you weren't looking hard enough
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:13 (five years ago) link
enter ilx, I guess
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:14 (five years ago) link
"oh wow how had I not heard this before?!" it's because you weren't looking hard enough
Words to blather about music by.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:16 (five years ago) link
ilx of course should aspire to more than simply regurgitating what *insert popular e-zine here* thinks is the hot and happening thing in popular music nowadays, and to ilx's credit it usually achieves this, if you know what threads to click
― imago, Monday, 10 December 2018 10:19 (five years ago) link
― imago
i guess i'm not looking hard enough because i say this to myself at least once a month
i can't even remotely relate to the "rockism vs. poptimism" debate. i'm old and out of touch with what people like. nobody i know is even aware of anything i like except for beyonce. i mean like seriously i think if i were to bring up janelle monae to most of the people i know i'd get blank looks.
in the battle between rockism and poptimism, back baby shark.
― dub pilates (rushomancy), Monday, 10 December 2018 13:27 (five years ago) link
Treeship if you're seriously trying to claim that the current state of music journalism is the result of critical positions thrashed out 10-20 years ago, and not a result of the complete destruction of the economic models of both journalism *and* the music industry over that period, then you fundamentally don't understand anything you're handwringing over.
I did not claim this. I made the milder claim that overall in the critical discourse we’ve moved away from the prejudices that characterized rockism (privileging the individual artist over collective efforts/ authenticity over artifice/ albums over singles / guitars over synthesizers / “timelessness” over ephemerality). Whatever the reasons poptimism is dominant
― Trϵϵship, Monday, 10 December 2018 13:28 (five years ago) link
I mean, you're exemplary when it comes to trawling for lesser known (euphemism) music, rush, so it makes sense that you shouldn't relate to this binary bullshit at all. Btw, I'm all for that baby shark line, whether it's a Kafka riff or not.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 13:34 (five years ago) link
Agreed, Treeship (unsurprisingly).
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 13:35 (five years ago) link
Thanking Tim F for a morning of reading Ewing--I do miss his voice. This one's great: https://pitchfork.com/features/poptimist/6772-poptimist-11/. (Has mark s ever read Harold Innis??)
There's probably some ironic point to be made about that column's Dave Marsh quote about Morrissey and the specific way his rep has changed over time. But I agree that the overly or simplistically politicized mode of pop criticism* that pomenitul and treeship are talking about shouldn't really be called poptimism. I'll allow this could be an age gap thing: I subscribed to Rolling Stone and then Spin as a kid--maybe you were reading Popular at that age. Still, you guys are smart readers and beating on this distorted image of poptimism, especially on ILM, makes it hard to engage.
* I guess? There's no evidence in those posts, and without any links or names I don't know what dire shit you guys are referring to--or even if you're talking about ILM? Who even are "the most vocal poptimists" on this board in 2018?? As Matt DC basically said, I wonder to what extent you're attacking engagement-driven clickbait rather than a serious critical position. Maybe we should call it poptimization?
― rob, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:46 (five years ago) link
ok ignore that post and just watch/listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPanudF7X6I
― rob, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:52 (five years ago) link
I don’t think I’m attacking anyone, I’m just wondering whether “poptimism” is still relevant as a critical lens. These things are often circumstantial—no one says they’re a “New Critic” anymore even if they still draw on some of the ideas from that school.
― Trϵϵship, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:54 (five years ago) link
i'll read some of those tom ewing columns.
maybe go do that? you really aren't making much sense, Matt DC otm
― sleeve, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:56 (five years ago) link
Due to its ubiquitousness, pop music doesn't need intelligent critics to lavish their optimism upon it in 2018, other genres do. It's time to move on: less pop music, more of everything else, thanks.
I'll leave it at that, as I've think I've already hit my quota of variations on a single theme for the week.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:17 (five years ago) link
there may be a generational component to this misunderstanding. I get the sense that older ILMers focus more on its causes whereas younger ones are more interested in its effects.
Fwiw, I'm old enough to have been on the first ILM thread and to have written 30 pages about one Avril Lavigne song in a grad course in 2003 and I think a lot of what you're saying is OTM.
(I'm also pretty sure "poptimism" meant something more than just a synonym for "open-mindedness" btw; that would have been completely uninteresting. It was a critical stance that had actual principles, which can be debated. There are a lot of ideas in the Tom Ewing 'interview with Jessica Simpson': about download/mp3 culture, about 'authentic' vs 'manufactured and fake' and why that is a false binary, about whether the artist's intention and investment does or should matter to the listener or the critic, about whether formal innovation and progress matter, about the relationship of culture to politics and economics and whether that matters, about the aesthetic attractiveness of three-minute songs about romance. To Tom's credit, these were bold and thoughtful ideas, which can be argued.)
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 10 December 2018 15:43 (five years ago) link
sund4r otm
― Trϵϵship, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:45 (five years ago) link
quite pleased that the most vigorous ilm discussion in weeks has served to hide all my various 'hurr x is shit' broadsides in the jumpIf I may return this thread to that territory — D0ja C4t seems to me like, idk, the musical equivalent of clickbait or “meme-making,” or something... I don’t get at all why ppl on here (with good taste) hear in her.
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, 10 December 2018 15:46 (five years ago) link
The moo song is horrendous
― Trϵϵship, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:48 (five years ago) link
bitch i’m a cow
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Monday, 10 December 2018 15:50 (five years ago) link
:P
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, 10 December 2018 15:51 (five years ago) link
lol
― sleeve, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:53 (five years ago) link
has anyone made a Moo'd Up mashup yet?
― rob, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:54 (five years ago) link
these were bold and thoughtful ideas
Very much agreed. This kind of poptimism, narrowly defined, has greatly influenced my own understanding of music over the years. But since rockism manifestly lost the war, poptimism – in no small part due to the term's suggestive versatility – is no longer 'anti-establishment' in 2018. Quite the contrary, which is why it deserves a bit of a ruffling.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:03 (five years ago) link
What I do notice, however, is that the most vocal poptimists are almost systematically uninterested in anything that falls outside of their purview (short, accessible, earwormy songs, preferably conducive to a political analysis), barring a woke signifier or two.
it's hard to concentrate on complex songs when you are made of straw
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:07 (five years ago) link
Between the ideaAnd the reality…
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:11 (five years ago) link
If I may return this thread to that territory — D0ja C4t seems to me like, idk, the musical equivalent of clickbait or “meme-making,” or something... I don’t get at all why ppl on here (with good taste) hear in her.
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, December 10, 2018 10:46 AM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lots of people on ILM were raving about the Doja Cat album months before "Moo" dropped.
― big crime for a SPECIAL WHATEVER (voodoo chili), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:13 (five years ago) link
for what it's worth I love poptimism being widespread because it means I can hang out with non-music critics, tell them what music I like, and have less chance of being sneered at. it's a very useful thing in my life
― aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:15 (five years ago) link
'Moo' is vaguely amusing, just 3 minutes and 30 seconds too long.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:17 (five years ago) link
xxp I know! That’s partly what I’m talking about
― underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:18 (five years ago) link
I don't believe for a second that any of you actually enjoy the 1975. In my mind, it's all an opportunist move to distance yourself from the exaggeratedly earnest middle-brow herd whose disapproval of this album is just a little bit too easy for you to stomach. Can't let them think they've actually got it, can you?
― ninthyoung, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:21 (five years ago) link
now we're talking
― sleeve, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:22 (five years ago) link
(I have not heard the band)
ah shit, the jig is up. gonna go to the 1975 thread and tell them that 'operation: annoy ninthyoung' has failed and they can stop listening to their favorite band now.
― big crime for a SPECIAL WHATEVER (voodoo chili), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:24 (five years ago) link
I'm amazed it took this long for the first 1975 challop to emerge in this thread.
― pomenitul, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:26 (five years ago) link
oh i'm not annoyed. I actually conquored my aversions evoked by that facial expression the singer does in press photos and found the music ok
― ninthyoung, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:29 (five years ago) link
nah I hated it
― ninthyoung, Monday, 10 December 2018 16:33 (five years ago) link
sorry that you're embarrassed
― jolene club remix (BradNelson), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:34 (five years ago) link
an opportunist move to distance yourself from the exaggeratedly earnest middle-brow herd whose disapproval of this album is just a little bit too easy for you to stomach. Can't let them think they've actually got it, can you?
Is this a list of the track titles? I can't parse it as an argument
― I Accept the Word of Santa (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:37 (five years ago) link