Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I mean tbf the way I learned to play over the hills, and I suspect the way many people learn to play it, is just as a series of connected phrases, each with their own intuitive rhythm. I don’t recall ever counting it at all. Which is one of the cool things about the riff.

I mean, I didn't even learn "Smoke on the Water" by counting it against a 4/4 grid. Doesn't mean there isn't one!

There are so many better books out now that actually do that and teach fairly sophisticated syncopation pretty early on using these kinds of songs.

The timing of "Over the Hills" is kind of like the notorious break in "Stairway," when the drums come back in but there's a tiny shift in the rhythm that means they come in on the off beat, or however it works out.

My favorite examples of songs in 4/4 that nonetheless sound super complicated are Van Halen's "Unchained" and "Jump." Both feature really oddly syncopated b-sections that sound like a jumble of signatures but are just intricately worked out over the 4/4 base.

"Black Dog," I want to say JPJ composed it to make it all but impossible to dance to, as an in-joke.

I always assumed The Crunge was sort of a similar joke, like "what if we made James Brown undanceable?"

Plant couldn't even find the bridge on that one.

Ugh

I reread RS's original reviews of the first five albums recently, all negative except for Lenny Kaye's review of IV, during a discussion on the origin and shifting definitions of the term "heavy metal" (in a musical context). Notable that the Houses review was the first where they used the term "heavy metal" and, there, it was because Gordon Fletcher was criticizing the album for not being heavy enough, for being 'safe heavy metal'. (Ironic since the earlier reviews criticized them for being too heavy.) On "Over the Hills", he had this to say:

“Over the Hills and Far Away” is cut from the same mold as “Stairway To Heaven,” but without that song’s torrid guitar solo it languishes in Dullsville — just like the first five minutes of “Stairway.” The whole premise of “graduated heaviness” (upon which both songs were built) really goes to show just how puerile and rudimentary this group can get when forced to scrounge for its own material. One would think that the group that stole “Whole Lotta Love,” et al., might acquire an idea or two along the way, but evidently they weren’t looking. Let’s hear it for androids!

Interesting that while Kaye was overall positive about IV, he only mentioned "Stairway" v briefly once, in passing. "Rock n Roll" and "Levee" were the standouts for him. (Later in the Houses review, Fletcher also referred to that song as "inferior tripe".)

For reference:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-i-187298/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-ii-182340/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-iii-112284/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-iv-101608/
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/houses-of-the-holy-2-250354/

Critics really just wanted them to be a heavy blues band forever, huh?

Yeah, seriously. All the shit Zep got, even from its peers, I think was from people who considered Page a traitor to the bloooze.

Tbf, Mendelsohn ridiculed the first two albums for being heavy blues-rock albums, although it mostly seems like he thought they weren't as good as Cream or the Jeff Beck Group.

This (from the Zep I review) made me lol:

“Babe I’m Gonna Leave You” alternates between prissy Robert Plant’s howled vocals fronting an acoustic guitar and driving choruses of the band running down a four-chord progression while John Bonham smashes his cymbals on every beat. The song is very dull in places (especially on the vocal passages), very redundant, and certainly not worth the six-and-a-half minutes the Zeppelin gives it.

“over the hills” is cut from the same cloth as “ramble on” imo

Definitely think of those two together, which means I'm always surprised to remember "Over the Hills" is in Houses.

I mean, Sabbath vs. Zeppelin is a debate.

I cannot even begin to fathom thinking Jeff Beck Group or Cream is better than Led Zeppelin. (I'm a JBG fan too)

was gonna say, I like Cream fine, but I don't return to them anywhere near as frequently

I mean, Sabbath vs. Zeppelin is a debate.

pour one out for bill magill

he's lifting right now

Jeff Beck — easily the most critically overpraised 60s/70s guitarist. I've tried a dozen times or more to understand what people hear in that fucker's boring-ass music. (I mostly hate Rod Stewart too, with and without the Faces.)

I'm not a fan of Beck's music, but I do consider him something of a guitar genius. More of an eccentric weirdo virtuoso than traditional guitar hero though.

It began making sense to me once I took stock of his singles with the Yardbirds ca. 1965-1966. Everything else I can do without.

his stuff in Yardbirds is genius

The overwhelming majority of rock music that I'm interested in is either from 1953-59, or from 1969-74, and then stuff from 1975-present, but that middle decade, roughly 1960-68, is a fucking wasteland with a few tiny green shoots as far as I'm concerned.

Now there's a challop. I'd be a mite more sympathetic if 1967 was your cut-off point.

1967 was green shoots, like, I don't know, the first Doors album. But overall, 1960-68 belonged almost entirely to black artists: Stax, Motown, and Blue Note. My hatred of the Beatles is well documented, and the Stones weren't really worth a shit till Beggars Banquet — at its best, their first half-decade of material is fine, but Not For Me; at its worst, it’s disposable, or actively insulting to its source material.

I'm cool with your hatred of the Beatles, I find them hit-or-miss myself (mostly miss fwiw). But dispensing with 1967 means no The Doors, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn, The Velvet Underground & Nico, The Jimi Hendrix Experience, Forever Changes and Safe as Milk, and I need all of those.

Well, like I said, I like the Doors' debut, but I'd sacrifice Are You Experienced and Axis: Bold as Love as long as I got to keep Electric Ladyland, and all the rest of the albums you listed (especially the Velvet Underground)? Forget it.

Unperson needs some 13th Floor Elevators.

That too. Or, I don't know, the Paul Butterfield Blues Band's 'East-West' (the track more so than the album).

Getting back to Jeff Beck tho, Truth kind of created the 'Zep Formula', albeit with lesser material & production. Mickey Most was pretty anti-Hard Rock, and Terry Reid (also produced by Most) later pointed out that had he joined Zep, they would have been stuck w/Most as a producer, and probably wouldn't have had the career they had w/Plant & Bonham.

I like Blow By Blow.

I've been meaning to hear that one. It looks better on paper than most of his other projects.

Truth isn't bad. It is def the prototype for Zep and I could understand someone rating it over Zep I.xp

Truth kind of created the 'Zep Formula'

Yeah, this is absolutely true, although both Zep and Beck quickly transcended it, becoming much more interesting in the process. Beck developed a really remarkable level of technique... I actually prefer him as a soloist to Page, although the latter's abilities as a composer obviously make him the far greater talent of the two.

And Rod had a Cooke/Redding thing going on vocally back then that probably was more appealing to some than Plant's wailings.

wired, there and back, blown by blow, live with the Jan hammer band are all sick, Jeff necked rulez

blow not blown, beck not necked, you get the picture

In a pinch, I probably prefer Truth to LZI. There’s certainly tremendous stuff on the latter, but nothing at the level of “I Ain’t Superstitious.” And Keith Moon’s scream/entrance on “Beck’s Bolero” is the greatest moment either Page, Beck, or JPJ would be a part of in a recording studio.

was gonna say, I like Cream fine, but I don't return to them anywhere near as frequently

I like talking about Zep, it makes me feel like I’m 15 again

Rod Stewart's run of Jeff Beck Group>Faces>early solo is about a flawless a run as any rock artist ever

he was a fucking amazing singer

I find Cream live a fucking snoozefest
but I never find Clapton a compelling soloist, just don't get it

watched a period TV documentary about their last show on Amazon Prime, such fucking wankers in the interview sections jeeezus

Cream were seasoned, arrogant Blues Scholars, and thought they were untouchable, hence the name. Then the Jimi Hendrix Experience showed up.

Always have felt all three members of "The Cream" were massively overrated and mediocre on their respective instruments. Clapton least so of the three I guess. I can't stand Baker's drumming.

I like jack bruce. things we like is a good album

Not bad for a Rangers fan.

Those first few Bruce albums — Things We Like, Songs For A Tailor, and Harmony Row — are very solid. And Songs has my favorite UK response (and there were many) to Music From Big Pink, “Theme From An Imaginary Western.”

Yeah I like Songs for a Tailor

Baker Gurvitz Army is better than Cream

Just went on a walk and tried again with Wheels of Fire, just can't hack it with this band

Though I accept at the time they were a real game changer in rock in a way that I cannot comprehend not having been there

Those first few Bruce albums — /Things We Like/, /Songs For A Tailor/, and /Harmony Row/ — are very solid. And /Songs/ has my favorite UK response (and there were many) to /Music From Big Pink/, “Theme From An Imaginary Western.”

Very good fan band cover of Carouselambra

https://youtu.be/qDlMIa94J9g

Drummer has JB’s tone nailed