Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I don't think I said that Derek Bailey would remind anyone of Jimmy Page

i mean, that who concert where people were crushed to death, that didn't come out of nowhere, that wasn't an aberration, that was how things _were_ back then

It could've just as easily happened to Zeppelin in that same arena in '77:

On 19 April, over 70 people were arrested as about 1,000 ticketless fans tried to gatecrash Cincinnati Riverfront Coliseum for two sold out festival seating/general admission concerts, while some gained entry by throwing rocks and beer bottles through glass entrance doors and some wall height, all-glass panes surrounding the outermost perimeter of the arena.

Ok so you could walk out of the Garden in the middle of Dazed and Confused and basically cross the street to see Derek Bailey dicking around for an hour on his own guitar the same night, or to see Mahavishnu Orchestra w/ an entirely different crowd—neither of which most critics would be inclined to describe as indulgent or pretentious.

You end up with this kind of weird, inverted rockism that has to do w/ keeping the fans of these bands in some kind of ghetto. It's an elitist resentment—that these hesher kids are getting off on the kinds sounds that for class reasons a lot of critics would have preferred to see roped off in a given downtown.

Tbf, I doubt that John Mendelsohn would have lasted very long at a Derek Bailey gig either. But yeah, there was definitely something oddly prescriptivist about pop music crit from that time - I think this is what people were originally referring to as "rockism", although that always seemed like a possible misnomer to me since rock, in the way that a lot of people understand it, was what these critics hated as often as not.

i sometimes wonder what it would be like to be robert plant. i don't believe plant is a bad person. maybe i'm wrong in that, probably it says more about me than it does about him, but when i look at plant i don't just see a great artist i see, well, an old hippie, basically. an old hippie who, when he was younger, found himself in this weird fucked up situation where he was feted as a golden god, treated like a superhuman, and all around him there's all sorts of really fucked up shit going on that nobody talks about, and sometimes he's part of it, he does some fucked up shit and nobody talks about that either. and then after ten years of that someone dies and it's all over.

except it's not because in the ensuing decades while he just tries to put it all behind him, what he did in those ten years becomes celebrated and acclaimed as the Greatest Thing Ever Done By Anybody Ever, and sometimes it seems like that's all anybody wants from him, to go back and do all that all over again. what's he going to do? talk about the pain, talk about everything he lost, talk about all of the horrible fucked up things that went with that? yeah, do that and see how quickly people break out the world's tiniest violin. nobody wants to hear about that.

I wonder about that too. I was not exculpating anyone btw, neither Zeppelin nor the comparatively critically favoured Stones, whose record with underage girls or the hiring of violent thugs wasn't spotless either. I just didn't know if their moral failings as people explained the critics' disapproval at the time.

Plant seems to have managed the whole thing amazingly well. The odd thing about the way these guys are characterized to me, esp the midlands faction, is that for the most part they hated being on the road and preferred beingbhome with their farms and families and old friends. For kids they seemed very self-aware—that "golden god" appelation is Plant's own, ironic quip. They seemed to understand it was an unsustainable joke.

Plant lived in the Austin area for a while, and I'd hear stories about him from time to time, and people universally painted him as an extremely nice down to earth dude.

Also, me and my buddies once passed Page and Plant walking down the street in Harvard Square, Cambridge, and they looked every bit like the rock gods you'd expect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyeLApBguU

Plant was reported back in Nashville last month working w/ Alison Krauss on another album

Also, me and my buddies once passed Page and Plant walking down the street in Harvard Square, Cambridge, and they looked every bit like the rock gods you'd expect.

― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles)

I understand passing pressure.

Everyone I know that has interacted or hung with Robert Plant says he is a great guy. That's why I brought up the Phil Collins story. Granted, It was decades ago, but in it Phil tracks the transformation of Robert Plant from great guy to asshole the closer they get to reforming Led Zeppelin. The implication is that the vibe of Led Zeppelin itself just lends itself to that sort of personality or behavior. I don't know, maybe it was all the goat sacrifices.

I feel like Plant's work with Krauss has been both musically laudable and, to an extent, a good PR move. Associating himself with American roots music both underscores the folkie/trad elements of Led Zep, AND distances him from the worst sweaty bombastic excesses of his old band.

Page presenting himself as a seasoned elder statesman and scholar of his instrument seems also like good PR strategy.

But still, almost no one would be interested in these dudes without their history, warts and all.

Can't think about LZ without thinking of the Fool in the Rain thread, and the isolated drum tracks therein.

You know that part of Led Zeppelin's "Fool in the Rain" where they come out of the silly Latin section back into the main piano riff and there's like a steadily rising drum roll and

I do not really identify as a Zep fan (for many reasons) but Bonham retains a place in my pantheon because of his command of his instrument and the particular quality of his sound.

Everyone I know that has interacted or hung with Robert Plant says he is a great guy. That's why I brought up the Phil Collins story. Granted, It was decades ago, but in it Phil tracks the transformation of Robert Plant from great guy to asshole the closer they get to reforming Led Zeppelin. The implication is that the vibe of Led Zeppelin itself just lends itself to that sort of personality or behavior. I don't know, maybe it was all the goat sacrifices.

― Josh in Chicago

i think that makes a lot of sense, josh. i've certainly been in those sorts of situations.

maybe it was all the goat sacrifices

new borad description please

I feel like Plant's work with Krauss has been both musically laudable and, to an extent, a good PR move. Associating himself with American roots music both underscores the folkie/trad elements of Led Zep, AND distances him from the worst sweaty bombastic excesses of his old band.

My understanding was that the musical partnership with Krauss was also a romantic partnership not a PR move

I think Plant's had a varied and musically curious solo career, I can't imagine he ever thinks like "this is going to distance myself from sweaty bombast" he's just doing what he's into

I really love the production by T Bone Burnett on Raising Sand. Also his production on Gregg Allman’s album Low Country Blues. It’s very elegant for a blues/americana sound but it never sounds too clean or overproduced.

I love how Plant sings on Raising Sand. It's relaxed, not trying to squeeze any lemons, like he's at peace with no longer hitting the high notes. Reminds me of Roy Orbison.

Yeah, no high notes for him, that Roy Orbison.

I got to see the Plant/Krauss tour, was pretty classy.

uh Plant / Krauss was a romantic thing too? Couldn't he be her dad?

uh Plant / Krauss was a romantic thing too? Couldn't he be her dad?

Not a romance, just a singing partnership. He was living with Patty Griffin - another folk/Americana singer-songwriter - for several years, though.

Well, my friend who sat in a large group with Kraus and Plant at SWSW when they were canoodling would say otherwise

Got no time for spreadin' roots.

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

You can take the boy out of Led Zeppelin but...

https://lastfm.freetls.fastly.net/i/u/770x0/10d6a9ec8f0a4f3ebd9fcb71b0504e74.jpg

John Paul Jones has also taken to the americana/roots music scene. There's a great video of him playing mandolin on Going To California with Gillian Welch & Dave Rawlings.

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain)

think you mean "fadoodlin'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImYKSTJsf-Q

sad to have missed JPJ play solo and duo sets at big ears

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, July 20, 2020 2:03 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lmao...felt like I had to use the word which I'm fairly certain has never been used outside of old gossip columns

Was driving around when "Your Time is Gonna Come" came on. What an impeccably produced, written and arranged song. It's incredible to me that anyone at the time, critics or otherwise, didn't catch that there was something special about this band. I'm sure some were caught up in the authentic bloooooze bullshit, but anyone missing that Zep was on another level even with the first album is like Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom, just fucking stupid.

https://youtu.be/LaMfgPMA8f0

the first album is so fucking good

Led Zeppelin is so good that even Dread Zeppelin is good.

Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom

Is this true?

If so..jfc

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/music/monterey-69.php

His retrospective preface makes it even worse.

Don't believe me, believe Sam Silver of The East Village Other: "Jimi did a beautiful Spade routine."

jesus

Cut him slack, he couldn't have known any better in *checks notes* 2002.

Robert Christgau, a worthless tin-eared piece of shit since 1967.

Good god, what a moron.

I certainly think "psychedelic Uncle Tom" is more accurate than "just another Uncle Tom."

Imagine, as they say, writing this down.

Ugh at psychedelic uncle tom

well that's really gross.

lol that it was 'psychedelic' that the lawyers objected to tho

someone needs to kill him with their big fucking dick

Was driving around when "Your Time is Gonna Come" came on. What an impeccably produced, written and arranged song. It's incredible to me that anyone at the time, critics or otherwise, didn't catch that there was something special about this band. I'm sure some were caught up in the authentic bloooooze bullshit, but anyone missing that Zep was on another level even with the first album is like Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom, just fucking stupid.

Obv not defending Christgau's race-related comments but tbf, I do think that the critics, even Mendelsohn, were catching that there was something special about these artists - they just didn't like it and found it vulgar, crass, 'self-indulgent', etc. Even Mendelsohn recognized Page's virtuosity, although he hated what he did with it, and Bangs did observe that Zep's deal would ensure them lasting stardom, although "it doesn’t challenge anybody’s intelligence or sensibilities, relying instead on a pat visceral impact".

Interesting thought experiment to imagine yourself seeing these guys as new artists, with no legend or canonicity built up around them, where they're big with the kids and you're a mid-20s writer with a BA and a mission to critique pop music as a serious artform.

Yeah, but the notion of Bangs dismissing the band as "little more than pat visceral impact" is just it. There was *plenty* of pat visceral impact music of the era (and beyond), but this ain't it (obv.). The notion that anyone, even Bangs, would review Led Zep III and spend most of the piece backhandedly characterizing the album as more of the same- "my main impression was the consistent anonymity of most of the songs" - is just nuts. And true to form, the review does scan as largely bullshit, given all the good things he says about the album between the ad hominems. But I suppose that's kind of par for the course for Bangs.

(For anyone curious: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-iii-112284/)